What would Episode II be like without the excessive amount of Computer Generated Graphics?

I don't think bluescreen has a large effect on the actors. When actors practice performing for the stage, they usually do it in a room covered in white walls. Actors like Lee, McDiarmid, Neeson and others have all had reasonable stage experience. Besides there was a reasonable amount of bluescreen work on LOTR although not to the same extent as AOTC.

I agree, not all actors were affected by this. I thought Chris Lee and Ian did a good job and they have a lot of experience. But the leads, Hayden and Natalie, the two people we are to follow and care for, showed the greatest evidence in my eyes of listless acting.

Also, the performances that are needed in a Star Wars film are very different to those needed for the LOTR. Although LOTR is set in a fantasy world its characters are very realist and more 'down-to-earth'. The acting in Star Wars is very deliberately escapist and artificial in nature.

I can see what you mean, to a certain extent, but I think some of the dialogue in LOTR sounds even more noble (even poetic) but they dieliver it with fire and gusto. (I like actors that do that). AOTC's acting is unlike what I have seen in the OT and that's what I have a problem with. Of course, it's your opinion that the PT dialogue was meant to be spoken that way. I just feel, knowing actors and seeing many performances, that I'm seeing symptoms of "too-much-bluescreen-syndrome."

(If Natalie and Hayden put more into it like Chris Lee, there would be fewer complaints)

 

'This movie, I think it's safe to say it's a fact, has more bluescreen/cg/model/digital manipulation than any other film released last year, more than even TPM and possibly more than any other movie. And I truly beleve it's very noticable -- too noticable even. Like I said in my post above, I think the cumbersome new digital cameras, in combination with the buescreens, and George Lucas' laconic directing style leads to weaker performances"

And I find that with the new DV cameras it makes even the live actors look a bit like CGI.

"AOTC's acting is unlike what I have seen in the OT and that's what I have a problem with. Of course, it's your opinion that the PT dialogue was meant to be spoken that way. I just feel, knowing actors and seeing many performances, that I'm seeing symptoms of "too-much-bluescreen-syndrome.""

The problem is the dialogue is not like this in TPM so apparently people only talked like this after the invasion of Naboo, but before the beginning of ANH

 

In the middle of all of this, it's very weird but cool to see someone sticking up for TPM's dialogue.

 

And I find that with the new DV cameras it makes even the live actors look a bit CGI

Mr. Ebert, is that you?

-ZM

 

Rebel Scumb: Exactly, and great sig JW00

Thanks, I ran across it and it was spoken by filmmaker Jean-Luc Godard from the French New Wave. Ironically, he was one of George's inspirations during his youthful days. I wonder what he would think if he saw AOTC.

 

I see what you mean JohnWilliams00.

When you said:
"If Natalie and Hayden put more into it like Chris Lee, there would be fewer complaints".

I would say Christopher Lee does not seem to put much effort into his part cause he is extremely professional and is a strong character actor. Perhaps Hayden's and Natalie's faults lie because they are putting in to much effort.

Either way they don't seem as comfortable as some of the more experienced actors.

 

Without the "excessive" amounts of CGI, Episode II would be a movie that would be blasted for existing in the past. It would be the same people who crusade against it now doing the whining. The CGI is useful in that Lucas imagination isn't curtailed in by what is and isn't doable. If he had ignored advances in FX, the current movies would be seen as out-of-date and the effects as cut-rate and cheap. The people who defend Ep II currently would be defending it if he hadn't used modern effects. The fact is, that the group of individuals on these boards and elsewhere who are on a crusade against Episode II and the PT in general will pick apart and find fault with every single facet of these movies because of their insane, near fanatical hatred of them. They pick apart the writing, the acting, the effects, the music-all of it. They do this because they have an incredible need to state exactly how much they dislike these movies that they can't stop talking about, and won't rest until everybody knows exactly how they feel.

Either way, CGI or no, these movies would still be excellent (to me), but I'm glad they went with the best effects possible. And a TON of the effects are still models, masks, and makeup.

 

But thats not what anyone is saying Apple seed, we're talking about approiate amounts of FX, not just CGI.

Here's an example of an excessive FX in my opinion, though its actually from TPM,

the walking hologram projector, so gratitus, so unnessesary, it just smacks of "we can do this, so we will do this"

Likewise in the arena, when Nute tells Jango to kill Padme, then Dookus ays patience, she will die and the all the droid dekas come rolling out. It would've been much better to have Jango take aim with a rifle and then have him get stopped by Mace turning on his saber, it keeps the danger between the characters and makes mace's action all the more relevant.

 

I imagine they used the walking hologram projector so that they could have the Nemoidans walking in that scene instead of just standing. Most of the scens with them they are just in a room. I didn't find it excessive at all.

As for the Mace scene, I like it as it was. The most effective thing about it was the shot of his feet walking in which was-surprise!-really his legs and feet and not CGI!

All I'm saying is that the anti-PT people would have bashed the movie no matter what FX method he used. I personally think they hold back a lot on the visuals, both in the interests of storytelling and also because they don't want to make the PT look too superior to the OT.

 

There is no such thing as having an appropriate amount of effects. In my opinion the effects may have meant Lucas imagination has been aloud to be more free, but this does not mean that the story serves the effects. All the effects serve the story well. There are very few effects that are unjustified.

Rebel Scumb - "Likewise in the arena, when Nute tells Jango to kill Padme, then Dookus ays patience, she will die and the all the droid dekas come rolling out. It would've been much better to have Jango take aim with a rifle and then have him get stopped by Mace turning on his saber, it keeps the danger between the characters and makes mace's action all the more relevant."

I am slightly baffled as to how this has anything to do with effects. In my opinion you are the one trying yo manipulate the story to suit your belief in effects. If Lucas has a script saying Destroyers come rolling in then what is wrong with that?

 

appleseed: All I'm saying is that the anti-PT people would have bashed the movie no matter what FX method he used.

You're making too strong an assumption appleseed that people will hate it no matter what. If you read what most of the detractors are saying, it's not simply saying Element A and B and C is bad just for the sake of it. It's saying that A is bad because of too much B, or B is bad because of too little C. (Don't know if that made sense.) I think many film elements are strongly connected with one another.

To me, I criticize the abundant use of effects because I feel it is effecting other parts of the movie -- the more important ones. I offered my opinions and explanations why I felt so and what I felt could improve the film a little. I don't know why you keep insisting on using the "Anti-CG" label when it's not even true. None of us said we wanted no CG. Many of us just want it used a little less.

Here's a quote from Chris Lee on special effects. He is praising Star Wars. Strangely, I like the quote, but I think it actually applies to AOTC more than ever. (about it getting slightly out of hand, but that's my opinion.)

Christopher Lee:

---

[b]"There is a danger and I think that there are two extremes in making films these days", says the 80-year-old. "One is make-up and the other is special effects. If you have an excess of either, which often happens in so many films nowadays that it is getting out of control it can be a question of overdoing it. But in a film like Star Wars that doesn't arise - it's actually a terrific help to us performers."[/b][hr]

 

That's a great quote. A great quote from a great professional.

 

I think Lee is right. The effects in SW are a help.

As for my Anti-CG comments, what I mena to say is that there are people who would like the PT no matter what effect process was used, and people who dislike it regardless of the FX style. I personlly think most people's opinions of the CG reflects their opinion of the movie overally. If you really love the movie the CG is a lot less of a problem because you are into the overall story. But it the story and characters aren't working for you, then the CG likewise becomes a problem. For me, the story and characters work and, therefore, I see less to complain about in the effects.

And besides, like I said before-there's still quite a bit of models and such in ATOC.

 

"All I'm saying is that the anti-PT people would have bashed the movie no matter what FX method he used."

I don't think thats a fair statement, I could just as easily say you would like AOTC no matter how crappy it was because you are determined to like it. That wouldn't be a very fair assessment of you would it.

But I would dislike the film so long as the story was poor, that will always be my main gripe.

"But it the story and characters aren't working for you, then the CG likewise becomes a problem. For me, the story and characters work and, therefore, I see less to complain about in the effects."

Exactly, though I still think because we have 4 other SW films to compare to, being a huge consistency freak I'd prefer the AOTC fx to look a bit more like the other films espeically the OT jsut in terms of texture and feel, the end battle just feels very very animated to me, but again if I was head over heals for the story I wouldn't relaly complain about that, you are correct.

 

To put things into perspective, here are two quotes from two very talented Moviemakers about the HYPE surrounding there recent movies Attack Of The Clones and The Lord Of The Rings. George Lucas: " I am not in the horse racing business, I'm a story teller." Peter Jackson: " I can't wait until they are looked at as just movies." The people who just want to create chaos amongst fans about which movies are superior, and which movies are inferior, should enjoy great movies for what they are, great escapism from real life stresses and to be swept away to places like a Galaxy Far Far Away or to an ancient Realm where magic filled the air and small beings could make a difference. This thread is just fine, but I don't understand why people turn legitament topics into Prequel bashing ? Enjoy this great time for movies

 

To put things into perspective, here are two quotes from two very talented Moviemakers about the HYPE surrounding there recent movies Attack Of The Clones and The Lord Of The Rings. George Lucas: " I am not in the horse racing business, I'm a story teller." Peter Jackson: " I can't wait until they are looked at as just movies." The people who just want to create chaos amongst fans about which movies are superior, and which movies are inferior, should enjoy great movies for what they are, great escapism from real life stresses and to be swept away to places like a Galaxy Far Far Away or to an ancient Realm where magic filled the air and small beings could make a difference. This thread is just fine, but I don't understand why people turn legitament topics into Prequel bashing ? Enjoy this great time for movies

 

I see what you're saying but I don't think anyone is bashing.

 

I still think that the prequels could have been made at the time of the OT, 20 years ago, without all the CG.
They would have looked different (no cartoon characters for instance), but people were used to the effects of that time. It was the best you could get.
But I've also said this in the TPM forum in a similar thread.

As for excessive CG in AOTC:
Zam Wesell's shapeshifting (was pointless anyway).
Three arena monsters instead of just one.
The droid factory was maybe a bit too much.
The Shaak with Anakin riding it.
The CG characters like Dex, that 3 eyed senator (I think he was CG, but in ROTJ we had a guy in a mask), the leaders of the commerce factions in the Geonosis Conference room.
The clonetroopers being all CG.
The cut-and-paste way the arena battle was done.
Yoda's lightsaber fight (pointless and ridiculous display of what kind of silly things you can do with digital animation - IMO of course). In most other scenes Yoda might as well have been a puppet anyway.

All these things were at least somewhat excessive I think, and could have easily been done differently, or left out, without really changing much.
In fact, maybe some things would have been better.

 

I have to agree, although the three eyed senator is a mask, and I must agree that the commerce guild and banking clan guys are horribly animated, they look like they are from monsters INC, much like some of the added pod racers in the TPM deleted scenes.

 

"This movie, I think it's safe to say it's a fact, has more bluescreen/cg/model/digital manipulation than any other film released last year, more than even TPM and possibly more than any other movie. And I truly beleve it's very noticable -- too noticable even. Like I said in my post above, I think the cumbersome new digital cameras, in combination with the buescreens, and George Lucas' laconic directing style leads to weaker performances because actors are pidgeon-holed into staying in one exact spot oftentimes, and standing there for long periods of time getting all the FX and lighting set up perfectly. This is arguable, but I personally could almost feel and see some of the actors' boredom onscreen and that lessens my enjoyment of the film."

The actors in ROTJ and TPM looked 100 TIMES more bored than anyone in AOTC. Fact!

 

This is arguable, but I personally could almost feel and see some of the actors' boredom onscreen and that lessens my enjoyment of the film.

This does not apply to Hayden or Natalie because they spend most of the time looking at each other. Who looks bored? The extras?

 

I like it as is!