PT What would have happened had Anakin let Mace kill Palpatine?

There are problems with a Jedi takeover.

First, what about the people of the Republic? The Senate is certainly not perfect, but they were voted in by the citizens. If the Jedi just step in and take command, people are going to wonder, "Hey, who are these guys? I didn't vote for them. Why don't I have any say in this? What happened to my rights?" I suspect most people have never met a Jedi in person, so why should they instantly trust them?

Next, the Senate isn't going to go quietly. They're going to ask, "What evidence did you have against Palpatine? We're still at war; why did you decide to make him step down now? We gave him the authority; only we have the power to remove it. Who made you boss?" Even the non-corrupt senators are going to have some serious problems with being forced (no pun intended) out of office.

Next, suppose the Jedi start "removing" bad senators. How does that work? Who decides who's corrupt and who isn't? Are they put on trial, and, if so, who presides? And what happens to the ones found guilty?

Next, the idea is the Jedi would step down once the state of emergency has been resolved. Who decides that? And what if there's a disagreement over when the situation is now good enough for the Senate to come back? Some Jedi might figure that the Republic would be better off with a permanent Jedi leadership. That's just natural; not everyone is Cincinnatus or George Washington. And what if the Jedi do give the Republic back to the Senate and the people? Would they be happy, or would they get suspicious over when the Jedi might decide to take over again on a moment's notice?

This shows just how much Palpatine had the Jedi boxed in. If they do nothing, he takes total control and destroys the Order. If they topple him but leave the Senate as is, the corruption is still there and the Jedi are still under a cloud. And if they stage a coup, they betray their own Code and the people will most likely never forgive them. By that point, the Jedi were all but doomed.

 

The Jedi are revered and worshipped as gods by the simple people of the galaxy, and as heroes in the war. If the Jedi took over, there would be people that don't like it, but not much they could do about it. They command a galactic army. People didn't like Palpatine either, including many senators, but it took years for violent revolutions to break out.

 

Very good points. I don't think the Jedi were well versed in politics. They had failed to keep an eye on the Senate and Republic affairs for far too long. I believe Windu was a Jedi of action. Good in the sense of doing what has to be done in the moment, but unlike Yoda, lacking the "patience" necessary to think through one's plans. One can hardly blame Windu for rushing to move as quickly as possible. However I concur that the Jedi Master should have at the very least informed the rest of the Jedi Council (or told Anakin to do that whilst he waited for them to return). Not that they could have foreseen the Chancellor ordering the army to turn on the Jedi, but indeed thinking through it logically, given Palpatine is the commander in chief, he essentially has control of the Senate, the Courts and the Grand Army. So indeed, caution should have been the Jedi's first order of business. However, Windu's plan to remove Palpatine by force if necessary also makes sense in that context.

I concur, that after Windu bests Palpatine and offers a second chance for Palpatine to come quietly, Palpatine again resists and appears extremely dangerous. There is no doubt at this point that taking him alive is not going to be easy at all. Palpatine will try to kill his captors at every turn AND he he has control of the Senate and the Courts. Had Windu taken him out (with or without Anakin's help) then that problem is temporarily resolved (though there would most likely be fallout). The Jedi could take over the Republic and clean house so to speak.

Anakin has his own needs (he believes the Sith Lord to be the only one who can "save" Padme), so his suggestion that Palpatine must stand trial, could be genuine, or it could be simply because Anakin wants him alive long enough to help him. Anakin does appear to show instant regret at his actions that allow Palpatine to blast Windu out of the window. I do concur with what you mentioned that had Anakin been part of the arrest team, and Palpatine resists, then Anakin may well have joined Windu in not only subduing Palpatine, but acting in the moment and killing Palpatine also. Windu does show remarkable patience in the face of an enemy who twice resists arrest and then feigns innocence when Anakin shows up.

I think the Jedi did not have a choice yes. Had Palpatine not been a Sith Lord, they were going to remove him anyway, should he fail to give up his powers. When they realised (owing to Anakin's information) that he was THE Sith Lord they were looking for, then it became a matter of severe urgency. Palpatine may have lost that night, but through Anakin's betrayal, he prevailed. And owing to the Jedi's lack of organisation and communication amongst themselves (other Jedi had not been told about who Palpatine was, or of the arrest attempt) or members of the Senate who could perhaps help them politically until far too late, Palpatine completely outplayed the Jedi. Indeed they played right into his hands with their "coup/rebellion."

Had Mace (and/or Anakin) killed Palpatine, we would either look at a Jedi junta that temporarily holds power through a transition and a Jedi Order that maintains a much closer eye on galactic politics there on in, or a Jedi Order that would control the Republic for the foreseeable future, ruling via its Council.

Indeed. There would be fallout. Politically the Jedi Order has been outplayed. Thus their "coup" plays into Palpatine's hands and they are declared Enemies of the Republic and it is widely accepted.

However, had the Jedi coup succeeded, no matter how much the Senators object, it is probably irrelevant. In the sense that the Jedi Council (and the Jedi Generals) control the Grand Army. To all intents and purposes the Jedi were the only obstacles left between Palpatine and absolute power. So with Palpatine removed, the Senate are facing a Jedi Junta ruling the Republic by force (and using The Force) with their control of the Grand Army. The clones follow their Jedi Generals. The only one above them was Palpatine. Who at this point would have been removed from office, or killed. It is unlikely the Jedi would permit the appointment of a new Chancellor (who would be commander in chief) until they deem it appropriate. At that point, power of the army would be returned to a representative of the Senate. Until that point, it is the Jedi led Republic.

 

Which means, in the eyes of the people, they'd be trading one dictatorship for another, with both saying, "I'm in charge, and I've got the military to back me up. And I'll stay in charge until I, and I alone, decide to step down." Result: the Galactic Civil War starts twenty years early, against the ruling Jedi. Think of it as Palpatine's "Doomsday Machine" scenario, where, even if he gets killed, he still takes down his enemies.

The only way Mace's action could work is if he first gathers up a whole bunch of clear evidence (beyond Ani's hearsay testimony) that Palpatine is guilty of a crime, not just that he's hanging around longer than the Jedi like. Then, he shows up during the day, rather than after dark. Then, he brings along his posse, plus a bunch of trustworthy & upstanding senators, plus the media. Then, he walks in and places Palatine under arrest for a specific charge, in full view of everyone. That way, the Jedi look like keepers of the peace and guardians of justice, not disgruntled fanatics overthrowing a government they don't like without the consent of the governed.

 

I mostly agree but one difference, the Jedi has served as the guardians of the Republic for millennia, they were war-heroes, they had fought and died to defend the Republic against the seps.

So there would be some difference in opinion there.
Sure to the senators who lost their post, they would not be happy but with the common people there might not be as much.

Are the senators elected?
Based on AotC and what Padme said, the new queen asked her to be senator so it sounds like the was simply appointed by the queen of Naboo to be their senator.
Is this how all senators gets their seats? No idea.

Lastly, you are correct in that Mace should have brought other people with him, say some senators that he could trust and either they present their charges to Palpatine and ask that he come with them, if he uses violence and a red lightsabre, there is no doubt that he is a sith.
Or they could go that and inform him that Griev is dead and the war is over and that he must honor his promise to give up his powers. If he refuses, in front of several senators, now all can see that he is making a grab for power. And then the Jedi could act.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

One problem: the war isn't over. Yes, Grevious is dead, but all that means is that someone else takes charge of the Separatist forces. As we saw during Order 66, fighting is still going on throughout the galaxy. The death of Grevious doesn't end the war any more than the death of FDR, Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, meant that World War II was over. The war ends when one side specifically surrenders, or is utterly destroyed. The death of one general doesn't accomplish that.

Plus, the emergency powers were granted by the Senate, not the Jedi. The Jedi can bust Palpatine for committing a specific crime, but they have no power to order him to step down in that situation. Palpatine could've just sat there and done nothing and he'd still have won that particular battle.

 

But in the film, right before Anakin tells Mace about Palpatine beign a sith, Mace says this;

So they were going to tell Palpatine of Griev and then ask that he give up his extra powers.
So if they have no power to ask this, why are they doing it?
Why not bring some senators along?
If Palpatine clearly refuses to honor his promise, then having some senators there as witnesses could be useful.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Because they are overstepping their authority, just like when they decided to take over the government after arresting Palpatine. One of the ongoing themes of the PT is how the Jedi were, with the best intentions, moving away from their core principles. They'd gone from "I cannot fight a war for you" to leading the troops into battle. And they were about to go from being servants of the government to actually being the government itself. While the reasons are different, the Jedi are being seduced away from their Code in the same way Ani was. In both cases, they think they're doing the right thing and don't want to hear differently. And when they both realized they'd been well and truly fooled, it's too late and they've paid dearly for their mistakes.

 

Very true. I mean, I for one would be all for the Jedi led Republic. But for others,

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
The Jedi have tried to overthrow the Republic.
Once they discover what has transpired here, they will kill us, along with all of the Senators.

As far as the Republic is concerned, with control of the army (having forcibly removed the Supreme Chancellor and assuming the powers of his office), the Jedi Order would not have to contend with politics. They would just assume power and rule by decree. Granted they may indeed honour their word and return powers back to the Senate, ensuring a "peaceful transition." Though the period of that transition is unspecified, as is what action would be taken in the interim. Perhaps a clean up of the corrupt? Or the Jedi may view it as being necessary that the Jedi Council runs affairs for the duration of the war. Using their own supporters to back them up in the bureaucracy for day to day affairs.

E.g. "Today is the end of the Republic. The end of corruption. In the name of the Galactic Senate, and in the name of the Force, we, the Jedi Order of old, hereby assume control of the galactic government. We will end the evils of the past, purge the corruption that has plagued us for so long, end the apathy to the plight of galactic citizens. Under our enlightened leadership, the Grand Army will ensure that justice prevails across our great galaxy. The Jedi Council will stand for a civilised age, for a galaxy free of greed, for a galaxy that gives favour to all. Today the Republic will be reorganised into the Second Republic. For a safe...and secure society! May the Force be with us all. There is no anger, there is only serenity. We are going to go on, we will thrive. Today we celebrate our Jedi Day! For the Republic!"

- First speech inaugurating the Second Republic by Master Windu, following the arrest/execution of Chancellor Palpatine, the last leader of the Old Republic. Master Yoda was appointed Supreme President shortly after in a ceremony broadcast live on the Holonet. This day would come to be known as "Jedi Day."

The Jedi indeed would have looked somewhat bad, but ultimately they almost succeeded in their "coup." Owing to a betrayal by one of their own, Palpatine prevailed in their act of treachery, and promptly declared them as Enemies of the Republic by executive order. The Senate more than bought this argument, they fully applauded it and supported the foiling of the Great Jedi Rebellion.

I concur, that the Jedi looked wrong here, more so because they failed though. The Jedi had failed to grasp the gist of galactic politics, and furthermore, failed to communicate vital information amongst other key members of the Jedi Council/Order. Master Windu turned up with 3 Jedi Masters, and apparently just tried to arrest, and then kill the Chancellor. Indeed turning up at the Senate during a session might have been preferable. Of course, the Jedi felt a need for urgency. Although they were already on their way to remove Palpatine from office, even before they knew he was a Sith Lord.

However, I think that the Jedi would have been able to rule, had Palpatine been removed. Would they rule forever, is the question.

As for the War, I believe with the Death of Grievous, and Dooku, the CIS lacked competent military leadership. That isn't to say that they still had a leadership, and vast armies at their disposal. It is testament to the threat they posed, that upon removing the last obstacle within the Republic to his rule, Palpatine dispatches Lord Vader to swiftly "wipe out" this threat, by purging the CIS leadership and issuing a "shut down" order to the Droid Army. Without this, had for instance, the Jedi taken over, it is unclear. The war may have gone on. Though without the inside manipulation and information of the Sith, AND the lack of military leadership/unifying eloquent Count Dooku then the Separatists may not have lasted long against a Republic run efficiently by Jedi who no longer needed any approval to get the job done. Or the CIS may have simply sued for peace, or even viewed the Jedi ending corruption as addressing the ills they were fighting against in the first place.

I concur that the Jedi were swayed away from their principles. They were outwitted by a very cunning Palpatine.

A public arrest would have indeed been preferable. I believe Mace and the Jedi Council were noble and had honourable intentions though. Sith Lord or not, the Jedi were there to ensure he gave up his powers, or else remove them from him by Force (using the Force if needed). I do believe their "temporary transition" would be temporary. However, there may have been backlash. I don't see this as insurmountable for the Jedi Order who have control of the Grand Army, and are well, Jedi with powers.

I suppose the issue would be the ongoing war, the cleaning up of the corruption and ensuring that Palpatine was portrayed as the villain, and not the innocent Chancellor, overthrown in a Jedi Rebellion/coup. which given Anakin's betrayal, it sadly was. Palpatine was a master at his plans. Evil yes. But great.

 

Here's what would happen.

Mace would swing his lightsaber but before his saber could hit, Palpatine would already block it with his second lightsaber. Or Palpatine in a supreme display of power, would simply reach out with his hand and stop the blade causing it to go back into the hilt. Then Palpatine would fry both Mace and Anakin with lightening. He'd kill Mace in a heart beat. Then Palpatine would have a brief monologue on how disappointed he is that Anakin didn't turn but perhaps his children would. Yes twins! And then Palpatine would kill Anakin.

Order 66 would happen next. The big difference is Obi-Wan doesn't confront Anakin now. Not sure how that changes Yoda and Obi-Wan's plan because I think Obi-Wan would only get in Yoda's way if they confronted Sidious together. Sidious now must fine a temporary apprentice until Luke and Leia are old enough. (Darth Maul?)

Is there a race to find Padme first. If Yoda and Obi-Wan find her first, do they fly off somewhere remote to keep her safe? Would Palpatine even want to train kids, or is he going to wait until they are older and more useful?

Either way the Republic still becomes the Empire. The Jedi Order is wiped out. The Clone Wars end.

 

Presumbaly if Palpatine had been killed then Anakin may have gone out of his way to research the dark side of the force in order to find the answer himself to stopping people dying... which could have led down a darker path anyway

 

I think you’re vastly underplaying Anakin’s skills. I think the moment Palpatine fries Anakin, then that’s it. Game over — Anakin would view him as an enemy and his survival instincts would kick in; he’d fight Palpatine then and there and defeat him.

 

Its amazing how well and truly boxed in the Jedi were by Palpatine, even if they "Won" they lose.

pre-conditions -

1)Palpatine was respected by the Senate and the Senators that didn't respect them had been marginalized or could be outvoted by the rest of the Senate. Those who were in the third group that didn't like Palpatine and were in Padme's group were probably compromised.

2) The regular everyday citizen's probably respected Palpatine, he had a reputation as the Chanceller who was getting the job done on the war front. He also probably had a great deal of sympathy due to his kidnapping

3) He had the most powerful Jedi in his sway, also Anakin needed Palpatine more then the Jedi

4) Palpatine had perverted the system to serve his needs, Mace was right, he controlled the courts and all of the committees, the concept of democracy was already fully dead at that point.

1) Scenario one - Mace and the other's burst in and Mace manages to arrest Palpatine. This goes to trial. What evidence do the Jedi have, the conspirators that could have proved it were dead, Dooku and Grievous, were gone, and even the CIS weren't fully in on the plan. Anakin would be called to testify, but his testimony would have been shredded as hearsay, unrecorded words. Meanwhile at the same time as the trial the Jedi have seized power and begin a purge of the Senate and the Courts, its basically now a witch hunt. The rest of the Senate would rebel over this destruction of democracy. The people would be asking when the Jedi would step down, and what right did they have to seize power. While Palpatine might have eroded Democracy to fight and win a war. The Jedi overthrew democracy based on circumstantial evidence at best. Meanwhile Palptaine's allies would stir up discontent. Palpatine would eventually be freed either by the courts or a popular uprising, and the Jedi would fall. Palpatine would reach out to the only "Jedi" that didn't know about this plot in Anakin who would break rank with the Jedi and probably testify that the Jedi wanted him to spy on the Supreme Chanceller naming Kenobi and Mace and Yoda and others as conspirators. Anakin would become a hero to the people and a man of great heroic character and honesty. He would still fall to the dark side in search of the information that Palpatine possessed. Mean the Jedi would be arrested by the Grand Army of the republic and sent to a prison like the Spire where they would be quietly executed. The Grand Army would enforce the laws of the courts and hunt down the Jedi. A good looking Palpatine gets restored to office until the Jedi Purge is dealt with at which point he seizes power.

2) Mace and Palpatine go to swords with Anakin is the witness. Mace screams that he's too dangerous to be left alive and strikes down Palpatine. The Jedi move in to seize power. Anakin hasn't fallen but he's completely disenfranchised and angry about the potential loss of his wife. The Jedi begin their purge of the government and begin to rule. The Senate resists, as far as they know the execution of the head of the government is still an assassination and they demand an open investigation. The Jedi can't really prove that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, the testimony of one of their own proves nothing and could be a lie, Anakin still upset lets slip that the Jedi had been plotting against Palpatine for a while. He also testifies that the Jedi are doing this to maintain their power, and that Palpatine knew that the Jedi were plotting against him. The investigation concludes that the Jedi attacked Palpatine first and then murdered the Chancellor, The population turns against the Jedi, and so does the Senate who the Jedi have been purging. They demand immediate elections. Palpatine's surviving friends convince Anakin to run for office, and he beats Organa who is seen as too close to the conspiracy by the ordinary people. Meanwhile Anakin is seen as heroic and honest for testifying against the Jedi. Anakin wins and is installed as the Supreme Chancellor. His first act is to decree that the Jedi Order is to be disbanded, he also orders the arrest of the Council. Padme resists this but Anakin convinces her that he's right and she goes along because of love. The Jedi Council is arrested and sent to the spire where they all eventually meet their fate. Meanwhile Anakin orders the other Jedi to come back and work for the Republic and puts them to work researching all of the Sith information in the Temple looking for the secrets. Anakin eventually gets corrupted, Padme gives birth to his kids and they become his new apprentices. The Empire becomes even worse because everyone loves Anakin.

 

That's a great point. Anakin does have a lightsaber in his hand. I'm just not sure if he is quite powerful enough yet to stop Darth Sidious. Anakin couldn't defeat Obi-Wan. But then the Force might be with Anakin if he fought Sidious in that moment. And if Anakin did defeat Sidious what does he do next? Does he go back to being good? Does he tell the Jedi about Padme and leave the order to raise Luke and Leia? Does Ankin become Emperor on his own like Kylo Ren does after the death of Snoke?

Still I don't think Anakin has the power yet defeat Darth Sidious. He would later, but not in a direct fight like this would be. Even Kylo Ren need a sneak attack to defeat Snoke.