Whatever happened to... ?

There are quite a few more dated EU elements that I have lost track of, and I doubt I'm alone in that. Anyone with a nagging minor question, jump right in.

The big one on my mind today is "Whatever happened to COMPNOR?" We rarely see it mentioned in new Star Wars works, but in the 90s COMPNOR was basically the go-to organization of Imperial antagonists in the WEG roleplaying game (much like Inquisitors were the dark side villains of campaigns, since it wouldn't do to have players getting a lucky shot in against Vader or Palps). Basically, it was a thinly veiled Space Nazi party, with extra Orwell on top... a group of fanatic loyalists created and nurtured by the Emperor. They even had the Hitler Youth (Sub-Adult Group) and SS (CompForce). They even had Triumph of the Will, for Katarn's sake!

I looked on Wookieepedia, of course. All it says is COMPNOR started dissolving after Endor and was gone by 20 ABY. Understandable, with an organization revolving around a dead man. But COMPNOR was huge. The SAG, ISB, the Coalition for Improvements (political espionage at the local level)... a lot of their functions had to go somewhere. Same goes for the political fervor. Even if it didn't, if it all just faded away, there's got to be a story there. So I'm just wondering if that was ever explored in any works.

(Personally I suspect the Imperial Mission took all the groups that had spun off from COMPNOR, and put a kinder, gentler face on the old beast. It's all there: the harnessed political idealism cloaking a vast top-down organization designed for spying.)

Next time: the Ubiqtorate. Did it outlive the Isards?

 

Is the OP referring to COMPNOR's absence in the Legacy era, or COMPNOR's absence in things like Dark Times, and Coruscant Nights?

 

OOU, that whole Orwell/Soviet side of the Empire fell by the wayside after the prequels put the emphasis on Force users and everybody wanted dark siders for Imperial antagonists.

A pity really, since I always enjoyed that aspect in WEG's stuff.

THE EMPIRE IS VICTORIOUS ON ALL FRONTS

 

You know, the thing about it is that with all the rumors and evidence suggesting that Hitler and many of the top Nazi officers were into the occult and using dark magics to influence the war there's absolutely no reason that the dark sider/Sith aspect of the Galactic Empire had to over shadow the Orwellian aspects of the Empire.

 

Screw COMPNOR; I want to know what happened to all the Imperial Army troopers that were apparently one of the most common Imperial soldier-types along with the stormtroopers.

Anywho, I would hope that the non-magocracy elements of the Empire get explored once more when the live-action show comes around.

 

The former. The latter is shameful, but the prequelization of the EU shifted the narrative focus. I don't think COMPNOR's been overwritten though, I just assume it's so omnipresent it doesn't bear mentioning (except in these fringe areas like Telerath where it probably wouldn't have a presence at this stage in the game anyway), since we know it really sprang up immediately post-ROTS... all they had to do was change the name.

All that said, I was pleased to see Coruscant Nights at least made use of Inquisitors.

 

That would be nice, and that way the Army troopers can be all or mostly normal human, while the stormtroopers can be clones and very skilled regular humans.

Tank was an Imp Army officer, who made it to commander, but his immediate superior didn't recognize his rank since his promotion didn't get submitted because a battle happened and the good higher up died before he could send it to make it legit.

 

The Imperial Army is a concept that never really seemed to gel past the appearance in the Imperial Sourcebook. Apparently there is something like twice (maybe more?) the number of Army troops as there are stormtroopers, but we never really see them onscreen (except maybe the AT-ST pilots were Army? Their uniforms were different at least). We did have people like Veers and Tank who are apparently Army Officers, but we always just see them (as well as some naval officers) bossing around stormtroopers. Stormtroopers who, according to the Imperial Sourcebook, actually have a separate chain of command with its own officers.

And of course some sources don't even make a distinction, and call stormtroopers "the Army."

So basically, Waru knows this is not really a distinct group that the films or most books/comics (which always go with the iconic dudes in the gleaming white armor) purposely take into account. It was a cool concept though, even if it meant that most Imperial soldiers were even worse than the "crack" stormtrooper corps.

 

My personal suspicion is that there's probably a COMPNOR analogue - renamed, with more checks and balances on the ISB aspect of it given Pellaeon's resignation as Supreme Commander because of the GAG - at work in the Remnant.

Lecersen reflects in Backlash that Treen's attitude toward aliens is still that of millions of Imperial citizens, and that's in 43.5 ABY, so there's still some Human High Culture at work.

And as far as the attitude - I don't think the Imperial outlook is all that gone from the GA, either. It probably wasn't very fashionable after 4 ABY, certainly, while Palpatine's atrocities were exposed, and it must've hit a low point during Borsk's reign.

But look at the attitudes of younger military personnel c. LOTF (Titch snarking at Wedge, and Jori Lekauf's Vader-worship). The Empire - the order, the might, the non-Sith aspects - were respected by at least some of them.

Given that there were, IIRC, 2 TRILLION COMPNOR members during the height of the New Order, those attitudes clearly wouldn't have been purged so quickly - if at all. Or maybe they just became unfashionable things muttered to children by their parents or grandparents away from the NR teachers.

I hypothesize that the Empire didn't entirely lose the culture war in the GA, especially given the back and forth where the Jedi are concerned. They have their supporters, but they did shoot themselves in the foot at times, also (Carida, Luke's keeping the Order in neutral early in the Vong War, and, of course, Jacen's choices/actions, which right or wrong, are attributed to a failure within the Order).

The very fact that Daala got in to office in what I suspect may have been an undeclared junta at the end of Invincible suggests that the post-Wedge generation of military personnel in the GA aren't so democratic as the Rebels foresaw.

The Empire wasn't necessarily victorious on all fronts ... but maybe victory, or defeat, are more nebulous in the EU than we like to think ...

-
Onderon1

 

IU-wise, it would make sense that COMPNOR wouldn't be resurrected in the Remnant and Fel eras. Let's keep in mind that not only aliens would despise these folks, but also the Imperial military. The military never really liked COMPNOR meddling in its affairs (a similar tension existed historically between the Nazi Party and the Wehrmacht; Hitler was essentially forced to purge the SA to keep the military folks happen), so it would make sense that folks like Pellaeon would make appeasing the military a bigger concern than reviving the all-intrusive Party. Afterall, practically all of the Galaxy's Empire-nostalga would have revolved around its military anyway.

 

I've got no problem with that and it makes sense since the Stormies evolved, or devolved from the clone army.

 

Okay, calling them the army is not really the problem. The problem is that they give the impression stormtroopers are the entire army. Which drops the Army regulars off the map. That might not be too bad depending on the stance you take as to whether the clone troopers were a relatively small (3 million strong) elite force infinite meat droids, but from a completist perspective it definitely leaves WEG out of the loop.

 

I agree that it makes sense there wouldn't be an organization called COMPNOR anymore, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be some groups doing some of the same things. The Empire is still an Empire, after all. They don't have that many elections that I'm aware of, which suggests a one party state, which suggests party machinery and all that jazz. I agree with Onderon that a new group must have picked up much of the same functions, albeit with some benevolent reforms. The Imperial Mission is a prime candidate for this. Wouldn't be the first time COMPNOR went in for cosmetic surgery... bear in mind it used to be the Commission for the Preservation of the Republic.

 

I was never into WEG, so it doesn't affect me one way or the other. It would be nice to see some regular army, or just merge the two and show it on screen/current print etc..

 

The key thing to remember about the Remnant/Second Empire is that it's not the Empire. The Remnant was built out of warlord holdings. And the Deep Core warlord forces it was originally built from were pretty much purely military in nature. Army, Navy, Stormtrooper Corps. Probably some Intelligence. There was very little political element, and given that the military hated COMPNOR, I can't see there being a COMPNOR presence.

The other element to the Remnant is the Rim holdings that Pellaeon migrated to, primarily the Pentastar Alignment. It's not out of the question that there was some COMPNOR presence there, as these were more complete representations of the Empire, but we again run into the problem that everyone hated COMPNOR, except COMPNOR. And Palpatine. It's not likely they'd tolerate the organization in their territory, especially not as the whole point of the organization was loyalty to Palpatine and the Empire -- not an asset for warlords.

The fact of the matter is, it doesn't make sense that COMPNOR would survive the end of the genuine Empire. It was unpopular with everyone else and was wholly redundant as an organization. As a political tool and as a matter of sheer inertia, it survived as long as the legitimate Empire was in power, but as we see during the Imperial Mutiny, it functioned as its own faction in the infighting and likely suffered quite a bit. Once Palpatine croaks, there's no sign of COMPNOR at all. It's not a faction in the Crimson Empire, which suggests that it's been basically eliminated by the infighting; it certainly doesn't survive the breakup of the Empire.

Pellaeon, then, wasn't faced with any kind of serious COMPNOR presence, he despised COMPNOR, and he had every motivation not to resurrect it. It makes little sense that it would show up in the Remnant. Any real political or propaganda function he might want served can be duplicated within the existing political structure or by Intelligence, and he certainly doesn't want an independent armed group a la CompForce.

The real head-scratcher would be if COMPNOR were in the Remnant.

 

I'm pretty sure CompForce was a small element of the organization, and the destruction of discrete military units like that is fairly easy. But IIRC a lot of regular military personnel were informants placed by COMPNOR to ensure loyalty. The ISB on the other hand, was really a vast law enforcement/intelligence agency. Think the FBI. If Canada came in and captured Washington DC, the FBI would still have all it's field offices and agents spread throughout the US, just as the military would have a bunch of bases, weapons, and troops. None of these things would wink out existence even though both they'd be cut off from the FBI director and the Joint Chiefs, respectively. Water finds its level. Someone would come along and make use of these resources, possibly several someones at cross purposes, but still.

I'd also point out the Empire can't just become some unEmpire because it loses territory. The fact that the Remnant was a holdout group suggests it would be more politicized because ideologues will stay on a sinking ship long after pragmatists have fled. Mr and Mrs. Human High culture won't just retire to a suite in 500 Republica when a bunch of aliens are about to move in. They'll fly to the summer home on Bastion and swear a new vendetta on the Rebels for the trouble. And COMPNOR is about more than just fanaticism; it's about politicking. Those warlords you're talking about are not just career soldiers dedicated to traditions of service. They are some very ambitious beings, and in a one party system the ambitious people climb as high as they can within the ranks of the party because that's the ladder of power. There's nothing to suggest Pellaeon is the norm for the Remnant. In fact, based on his relationship with the Moffs he's clearly the exception.

 

You're conflating speciesism with COMPNOR. It's as fallacious as arguing that all German anti-Semites were SS.

Most of the old Wilhemite military that Hitler co-opted were anti-Jewish in sentiment, yet still had no time for the SS upstarts who they considered unsophisticated.

 

But the most virulent antisemites were drawn into the Nazi party because they agreed with an ideology of virulent antisemitism! And those "upstart" SS were the least inclined to give up the fight.

So, bringing it back to Star Wars, who's the most likely to surrender/defect to the New Republic as the galaxy's latest political authority? The rank and file military, who can paint a crest on their Star Destroyers and continue their patrol for the new boss? Or the folks who know they would have a war crimes trial waiting for them?

COMPNOR members clearly have the makings of dead-enders.

 

Who's arguing that COMPNOR wouldn't fight to the bitter end? The point is that they would have been wiped out in a second (as they no doubt were).

As Havac pointed out, once Palpatine was gone, COMNPNOR was toast, because the rest of the Empire hated their guts..

They had no other power base. Just as, without Hitler, the German Military would have purged the SS and returned Germany to a quasi-Junker dictatorship.

 

The Imperial Navy is not the Wehrmacht. It didn't have some proud tradition from the Good Old Days. Just like COMPNOR, there wasn't a navy before Palpatine.

And COMPNOR is not the SS. You're thinking of CompForce. COMPNOR's more akin to the entire Nazi party. Far more difficult to "purge" unless you have a political alternative. "Risk total annihilation to shoot pew-pew lasers at a rapidly growing enemy [the New Republic] for no reason other than fanboys like pew-pew lasers" is not a political alternative. Your apolitical naval commanders have no reason to stick around once the Empire's defeat is an obvious military reality. And remember that the Empire and Rebels/NR are factions in the Galactic Civil War. It's not a matter of closing ranks against a foreign opponent (as the Allies were foreign to the Axis). The navy has already lost the galaxy, and that galaxy isn't being occupied; it's (relatively) happily participating in the new government.

 

Rubbish: the academies that would go on to produce Imperial officers were quite busy producing officers for the Judicial Forces and other planetary defense forces (along with the traditions associated with the officer corps) long before Palpatine came along with COMPNOR. We also got planets like Anaxes where sending their boys off to military academies and upholding military traditions are important cultural values.

COMPNOR thrived because of the popularity enjoyed by Emperor Palpatine and support that the Grand Vizer gave to it. Once Palpatine got killed, those warlords who broke away from the Empire would have had to purge their territories of COMPNOR (an organization which ideologically can't allow for such things to happen) to legitimize their rule. When the Grand Vizer gets replaced by the Director of Imperial Intelligence, it's a good bet that the ISB gets mostly purged; whatever's left would be absorbed into Imperial Intelligence. Then we have the alien Grand Admiral Thrawn; a shogun who goes completely against the COMPNOR ideology. Many purists would have no choice but to reject Thrawn's rule in order to maintain Correct Thought; whoever didn't get swept aside by that time probably found their last refuge in Byss.... and we all know how Byss turned out. Once Kir Kanos destroyed Palpatine's Empire as a political entity once and for all, all that's left are warlords who would have swept COMPNOR under the rug years ago. COMPNOR simply had too many enemies in various loyalist and seperatist elements of the Empire to survive.

One doesn't need to believe in COMPNOR to stick with a failing Empire..... in fact, they couldn't if they wanted to remain on the good side of seperatist warloads and nonhuman Grand Admirals. However, any number of people who despised the concept of a democratic government (look how the Republic turned out) or even simply had friends and relatives who were killed by Rebels or anarchy-loving pirates could have conjured up enough motivation to fight the Rebellion.

 

The Empire didn't become an unEmpire because it lost territory. It became an unEmpire because it died. Read Darksaber again (if you can stomach it). Read the NEC or EA. After Carnor Jax and Xandel Carivus, the Empire died. By 12 ABY -- hell, even by the end of 11 ABY -- the only thing left of the Empire was fortress worlds and warlord holdings. The central apparatus of the Empire was gone. It infought itself to death and the New Republic made sure it was finished off. The Remnant was not some scrap of the Empire that remained; it was a new organization, rebuilt from the warlord holdings that were no longer part of the Empire. And COMPNOR cannot survive among warlords. It can't. Because they're the holdouts, the hardliners, the ideological Party nuts, and their ideology cannot accommodate warlordism. And the warlords cannot accommodate them, because they're dangerous Party nuts who can't be trusted, who have their own agenda, and who are a threat to their power. It doesn't matter if people buy into the Party ideology or not; few of them buy in like fanatics, and nobody likes the Party officers themselves, because they're scared that when they breathe wrong they'll get reported for disloyalty and disappear.

Mr. and Mrs. Human High Culture will fly to Bastion, yes. But the COMPNOR party apparatus won't come with them, because the people in power hate COMPNOR's guts. They don't want Mr. and Mrs. HHC going to COMPNOR meetings and contributing to COMPNOR and giving power to some bunch of lunatic watchdogs. The Moffs want Mr. and Mrs. HHC sitting quietly and paying taxes to the Moffs.

The fact that Pellaeon didn't get along with the Moffs doesn't mean that the Moffs are the opposite of Pellaeon. Pellaeon didn't get along with the Moffs because they were both politicking for control of the Remnant. The fact that the Moffs were largely unreconstructed where Pellaeon wasn't doesn't mean that they're going to embrace having another faction in the politicking.

Human High Culture was around long before COMPNOR. Or COMPOR. That doesn't mean that every speciesist Moff out there is in love with COMPNOR. Just like the Moffs are all devoted militarists -- but they still hate the fact that the military organization doe

 

Not to force an age old arguement here, but if we're going to check the NEC it gives us several lines the like of :

"Thanks to Daala's reunification efforts, the Empire was stable, though still only a shadow of its former self. If anyone could restore the Empire, or at least slow its inexorable decline, Pellaeon appeared to be the one."

and the Atlas offers: "Fortunatly for the stricken Empire a uniter arose", just after saying that "The Empire essentially ceased to exist" - kinda a muddle as often exists on this subject.

The Empire's central governemnt did cease to exist, forcing Imperial holdings to fortify themselves until such time as someone could reunite them. The government structure that did remain though, the Moff's, were some of the very same men(like Disra) that were given their posts by Palpatine. This is why I don't feel that the Imperial Government ceased to exist, I feel like it just became fragmented, lying in wait to reorganize.

For what its worth, if the post 11 ABY Empire was a legitimate successor or not, those within its borders viewed it as the same Empire. As well when the treaty was signed at Bastion between the New Republic and Empire - this event makes me believe that the New Republic government officially recognized Pellaeon's faction as a continuation of the former Empire - heck Leia even sheds a tear because the war between the New Republic and Empire is finally over.

I've developed two takes on this issue.

1. Palpatine never meant for the Empire to survive without him, thus it died with him........ a couple times.

2. If Carnor Jax, Sate Pestage, Ysanne Isard or Yogi the Bear could lay legitimate claim to Palpatine's Empire after his death, then other Imperial loyalists could as well.

Is there some legal(official) avenue that one can prove the Remnant is a direct continuation of the Empire, probably not. But I also don't agree with the arguements brought forth in discussions about how the Palptine Empire continued on after his death, skipping from leader to leader as if it was somehow legitimate with him out of the picture.

When I see words like "reunited" or "ressurected" those notions combined with the POV's of those within the Remnant, some of what I present above, and actions of the New Republic involving the Remnant, thats enough to make me believe they have some claim toward the "Empire" of the past.

If some disagree, I'm fine with that, but no one has made me believe they have all the answers and all the blanks filled when canon sources can't even seem to agree on the issue.

 

However, it must be noted that Palpatine never meant for the Moffs to act as a governing body for the entire Empire; that job belonged to the Imperial Ruling Council (who had the power to appoint Moffs and planetary governors BTW). Without a Ruling Council to approve of a change in the power of the Moffs, then technically there is no legal continuity between the Palpatine Empire and the Imperial Remnant.