ST What's your opinion on Sheev Palpatine coming back as the main villain of the Sequel Trilogy?

This is a quote from a fan who loved the return of Palpatine:

"The first two trilogies were about the relationship between the Skywalker family and Palpatine. To take the final third of the saga and focus on random new protagonists fighting a random new villain would be pretty disjointed; it wouldn't feel like part of the same saga."

I however think that Palpatine's story was wrapped up pretty nicely in Return of the Jedi, and I still think they should have used a new villain and kept Palpatine dead, but that's just my opinion.

 

Personally i think it was the right thing to do. it helped tie the 3 trilogies together by having the same main boss. but in terms of how they did it... yeah it could have been done abit better.

 

If Palpatine was to make a return after his death in ROTJ, then it should have been hinted at in either TFA or TLJ. Someone said once (may have been someone in these forums) that TLJ might have actually gotten people excited about Episode XI if, instead of broom boy, our last shot was of an awakening Palpatine clone.

 

For me, mixed feelings.

I agree with you, @DarthVist, that the Emperor's arc was perfectly concluded in Episode VI. Can't imagine an ending that would be as emotionally or narratively resonant as Sidious being rejected and cast down by the pawn we'd seen him abuse for 3+ films, but if there is one out there, Episode IX didn't deliver.

That said, if the sequels are indeed supposed to be the third act in a so-called "Skywalker saga" and not simply a standalone trilogy that merely happens to take place after the events of the Skywalker Saga, then bringing the Emperor back was the right move.

At the end of the day, the sequels felt more like the Scouring of the Shire without any meaningful connection to the OT and especially the prequels. With all due respect to Luke, Han, and Leia, Palpatine is the most narratively important character in the first six films outside of Anakin himself and bringing McDiarmid back to provide some much needed menace and gravitas was necessary to thread the trilogies together.

 

Somehow Palpatine Returned.....

It’s sad that line was uttered......

Just cements further how this trilogy was a poor mans OT.

So I am quite dissatisfied with Palestine returning. I don’t like how it takes away from Anakin brining balance to the force by destroying the Sith because it turns out he didn’t.

Before TRoS we were already stuck with two films who were trying to hard to imitate the OT (Rebels vs Empire, etc). Having Palpatine show up in the 3rd film to be defeated, with a bit of super weapons on the side, is a sure sign or lazy storytelling.

At least Palpatines return should have been foreshadowed in TFA and TLJ but because they didn’t have an overall plan for the trilogy during the production of TFA, that wasn’t the case.

Not even an actual film explanation to how he survived, instead resorting to a book for that answer.

And remember folks, they stuck Palpatines opening speech across the galaxy in FORTNITE.

 

@Sable_Hart , I disagree. Instead of bringing Palpatine back, a character that we all saw die in RotJ, they should have “ threaded” the sequel trilogy to the other two trilogies by having Rey actually BE a Skywalker. The trilogies would have then gone from father Anakin skywalker to son, Luke Skywalker, to Luke’s daughter, Rey Skywalker. Plus, instead of rehashing, in a far inferior way, what we got in the Lucas films with a Purged Jedi order and a skywalker falling to the dark side and becoming a Vader wannabe and then being redeemed, we should have gotten a new story, one that logically CONTINUED from RotJ.

There should have been a small new Jedi order. That would have been a logical continuation of the prior story. It would have also been different, in that there would have been about a dozen or so jedi, as opposed to the one or two of the OT and the thousands from the PT. Those Jedi could have formed a core of new characters , with an emphasis on one to three in the ST, but others could have been used in future film or book stories or side stories.

There should have been a new major villain ( preferably NOT a Skywalker, though that could have worked if Rey were a blood skywalker too. ), and a NEW story, one that took the saga forward; not backward.

I think bringing back Palpatine was a TERRIBLE decision. It put the final nail into the OT coffin. Now, the OT story and characters are truly meaningless and unnecessary. Now, not only do Luke, leia, and Han leave behind NO positive legacies, and it actually would have been better for the galaxy if they had never existed, because they brought evil kylo into the world (Han and Leia) OR was the catalyst who started him on the road to villainy(Luke), BUT now Anakin/Vader didn’t fulfill the ancient prophecy about balancing the force, because he never did destroy Palpatine. So, now the Lucas story is null and void.

Sadly, it is also no longer the Skywalker saga. It’s now the Palpatine saga . Now the skywalkers are total failures, and a Palpatine will accomplish what Luke, leia, and Han couldn’t. Palpatine ends up getting the last laugh. The ST is really a very sad, tragic, nihilistic story that destroyed the wonderful ending of RotJ, along with the OT characters and films.

@StarWarsFan91 , I see that you and I are in agreement about Palpatine’s return meaning that Anakin/ Vader failed too, in that he didn’t kill Palpatine, so he didn’t fulfill the prophecy. You beat me to it!

 

Poodoo!

 

I think it was lazy storytelling to bring Palpatine back. They should have thought of something more inventive for Snoke, and had him come back instead, since he was basically set up as the actual main villian of the ST seeing as how he was the one controlling Kylo. (If Maul could still live after being cut in half, so could Snoke.)
Palpatine's story should have ended when Anakin threw him down the reactor shaft.

 

If TFA didn't exist, I would agree with you. Sadly, TFA was the one that destroyed the OT, not TROS.

TFA:
* Rebooted the Rebel/Empire dynamic in the form of the Resistance/First Order
* Destroyed Luke's new Jedi order off screen and made him a cowardly, cynical exile hiding from the galaxy's conflicts
* Returned Han and Chewbacca to their ~ANH smuggler lifestyle
* Destroyed Han and Leia's relationship off screen and turned their son into a Grandpappy Vader wannabe
* Gave us two pseudo-Sith in the form of Snoke/Kylo - who are Sith in all but name; same powers, same goals, same methods
* Wiped out the New Republic in a single ignominious decapitation strike

By bringing back Sidious, all TROS did was... well... urinate on the smoldering embers of the house TFA burned down. Anakin and Sidious are the two most important characters that bridge the prequel and original trilogies. If this sequel trilogy was supposed to be the third act of the trilogy and TFA is set in stone, bringing Sidious back is the only meaningful way to connect everything together.

RE: Snoke; personally, I'd rather have the OG himself than Bargain Bin Sidious, which is all Snoke ever was.

 

I agree with what you say. Most of the problems start with TFA though I would argue it goes even further back and starts with Iger and Kennedy deliberately not using Lucas Story treatments for the ST and deciding to try and Marvelise Starwars instead. Once that happened of course your gonna get Rebels v Empire 2.0

 

I agree with everything you said. Palpatine already got a good death, so it made sense to keep him dead. Also, Anakin/Darth Vader was a huge part of the Prequel and Original Trilogies, and he wasn't in the Sequel Trilogy at all. So if Anakin/Darth Vader isn't going to be in the Sequel Trilogy, then why should Palpatine?

 

I would've really liked the idea similar to Trevorrow's where Palpatine's shadow is cast over the story through an old recording that leads to an unused/unfinished contingency plan.

So the big McGuffin Hunt is actually a legitimate race between the good guys and the bad guys to either stop this ultimate power from being discovered, or to use it for their own ends.

I'd even be fine with a twist that the promised "power" was actually something that resurrects Palpatine's spirit, and the poetic irony being that when Kylo finally gains the ultimate power he's been seeking the whole trilogy, that power literally makes him a puppet for Palpatine.

Then I dunno, Rey somehow banishes his soul back to the netherworld before he can escape and cause havoc. Wouldn't be perfect, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go with bringing back Palpatine. I don't think the saga needed it, and I certainly don't believe the sequels earned it.

 

If you want to bring back Palpatine without taking a dump on the legacy of the Chosen One then you have to bring Anakin back as well. And you also can't make Rey take a backseat. So you essentially have to write a situation where the only way for Palpatine to be ultimately destroyed is for Anakin's spirit to sacrifice itself, giving up his ability to exist as a force ghost, at the same time that Rey strikes Palpatine down. Then Anakin's spirit forces Palpatine's spirit into the great beyond. And to throw on a touching moment, as we see Anakin's force ghost fade away into the netherworld, he gets a glow to his eyes.

ANAKIN: Padme?

 

It had everything to do with desperation, on the writers part, and nothing to do with what the story required (IMHO). That Abrams et al were so easy to dismiss themes/concepts, already established by Lucas (including the notion of a 'Chosen One', bringing balance and Luke's part in that), and then talk about the films coming 'full circle' with Palpatine, smacks as really disingenuous. As with much of the ST, if there were a right or wrong way to bring Palpatine back, they chose the wrong way.

 

"Somehow Palpatine returned." The ST in one line.

I was so disappointed in Snoke when he was summarily cut in half in TLJ that for a little while in the beginning of TROS, I was willing to buy into the reveal that he had been Palpatine's puppet. The "I made Snoke" line. But that quickly gave way to the realization that nope, Palpatine being back now after everything that happened in ROTJ is just not reasonable or right. How he returned was not believable, and that he returned is not fair to what was accomplished earlier by Anakin and Luke. I posted recently in another thread about the convoluted mess (IMO) of the whole Final Order and Sith Eternal part of it all, so I won't delve back into that.

What I think is really problematic here is how it doesn't really establish a firm death and end for the character now. We knew at the end of ROTJ that Luke's faith in his father and Anakin's sacrifice to stop the Emperor had indeed killed Palpatine and ended the Sith. I don't think anybody saw that huge blast of energy come up the DSII shaft and thought "maybe he's still alive". But the ST creators came up with a half-baked idea about him transferring his essence right then to a clone body waiting for him on another planet, or some ridiculous variation on that (and explained only if one reads supporting material, at that). So now, when Rey uses two lightsabers (not one, but two!) to return his Force lightning back into him, we're apparently supposed to believe that the resulting disintegration and blast we see truly means he's dead and gone. I mean, I really hope so, but it's hard to believe them this time. I think they would point to villains like Voldemort or Sauron as examples of other characters who remained a threat without always having a visible, physical presence. And when it comes to the ultimate defeat of these villains, Voldemort was really finished once he had no more horcruxes, and Sauron was really finished once the One Ring had been destroyed. There is now no such safe indicator of defeat for Palpatine, once they brought him back here from what had been a true defeat in ROTJ. Now it's just... "well, he returned somehow, but he must really be gone this time because it looked like he disintegrated and that was a really big blast!".

I think they meant it when they said that the Skywalker Saga is done, but it would actually feel more done if they hadn't created their big, epic finale by undermining earlier episodes of the same saga.

 

Palpatine is currently returning. He returns by the end of TROS, but before then he has not found that way back yet. It is only when he drains the life from Rey and Ben that he truly returns as the "one true emperor".

 

I used to like that idea but now, in hindsight, I wish they woulda just let Palpatine be.

So mixed feelings, I guess.

 

It's a story for another time.

 

TLJ was the one that decided that Luke was a cynical exile in hiding. The original plan at the end of TFA was for Luke to be meditating and floating with various boulders and stuff in the air around him. Originally he descend to the ground and then looked at Rey. The cynical Luke stuff was 100% RJ and TLJ. The rest though I totally agree with. If this is the story they could come up with they should have just adapted one of the EU books or comics because it's even worse than most of those.

 

Brilliant Idea, terrible execution.

 

Regardless of the cynical attitude of Luke in TLJ, the main issue is that this arc for Luke, him sort of giving up on himself, seeing himself through younger eyes, and returning to the fold one last time, doesn't work within the context of TLJ.

That arc for Luke was meant for TFA (or at least the original idea of VII, but I'm just gonna say TFA to keep things simple) and you can have Luke in that head space if you've still got a galaxy that is at peace. You can have a world weary Luke Skywalker so long as the forces of darkness aren't poised to destroy the galaxy. In TFA, no one knows how much of a threat the FO really is until the midpoint when the FO strikes out (however it was originally intended before Starkiller Base was thought up) Then you have Luke realize he's needed again and he jumps into action.

If you have Luke refusing to help while his OWN SISTER is at risk of getting atomized by a pursuing FO fleet, it makes him come off as... well, Jake Skywalker. Character arcs have to work congruently within the stories they're being told in. Apparently Rian Johnson missed that day in film school.

 

I didn't like his incorporation into the ST (which was unplanned and desperate) but I love the character and wish he'd had a bigger role:

1. He should have been brought back in ep VII
2. His appearance should have been adaptable, so that we could appreciate Mcdiarmid giving us something new for the character
3. Anakin should have been a character as well
4. Rey should have been Leia or Luke's daughter
5. The ST should have definitively killed him by the end, and "re-concluded" the prophecy of the chosen one

When we've heard about Lucas' ideas for a "microbiotic" story about the force, I see that as a continuum where the PT focuses on the "big picture" of politics and institutions, moving to the "heroic" OT where a single person can save the world, and then a mystical ST which examines how exactly The Force moves these events. This would represent three historiographically alternative but interwoven stories about good and evil: an institutional/economic view in the style of The Rise and Fall of The Roman Empire, a mythical "great men theory" from antiquity, and a natural history which wrestles with human agency, respectively.

Part of the appeal of making a ST in the first place was bringing back beloved actors to revisit iconic roles, and I think Mcdiarmid is absolutely part of that. I do think ROTS is a fulfilling and conclusive end to the Skywalker/Palpatine story, but it could have been continued with some inspired writing.

 

One of the reasons I was against an ST in the first place (not against SW movies taking place after VI - just that they should not be part of the I-VI saga) is that I am STRONGLY against Palpatine returning (any number of reasons - mostly covered already by others), but don't like the idea of a new villain taking up the next chapter of the story. Palpatine is the main villain of the saga, and should remain so. If they HAD to do an ST (the didn't, though), I think the right way would be for Palpatine's legacy to loom over the events of the entire trilogy. A lot of ways they could of done this, and they could have used multiple ideas. Some possible things they could have done:
1. A secret society of saboteurs set up by Palpatine to undermine the Republic if they should retake the galaxy.
2. Holorecordings of Palpatine claiming that he is still alive, that he has massive resources in the Unknown Regions that he will bring to bear on the galaxy, and the claim that he faked his death to test the loyalty of his subjects. Stir fear and paranoia amongst the citizenry.
3. A fake Emperor rallying opposition to the Republic behind him.
4. A secret apprentice of secret apprentices carrying out his posthumous orders.
5. Some kind of weapon or weapons that are activated and need to be stopped.
6. Some kind of creature or creatures that he created and has now unleashed.
Very disappointing for him to be back alive (or it would have been disappointing if I hadn't already given up on the ST world-building). Even more disappointing for his presence to be non-existing for 2/3 of the trilogy if they WERE bringing him back.

 

This sums up my issues with TLJ perfectly.