When did Anakin turn to the dark side?

However, by the end of Dark Lord, he's embraced the power of the dark side and can feel it rushing inside him like an "icy torrent".

 

He was always on the ledge of the darkside, but it really turned him when he choked Padme. He made himself do all the things to embrace dark power, but it had really consumed him by the time he lashed out at her, and he was beyond return. He was doing all of this for her, and it ate him alive by that moment in time. The good Anakin would never have hurt Padme. When did Anakin become Vader? When Sidious tells him Padme is dead. The monster is born then.

 

I think it was apparent he turned to the dark side (or was turning) when his mother died. He killed all those people and there was true anger in him.

 

Yes, you are right on point Fenn. Despite the fact that Vader could feel it as such, he still was unable to completely embrace it, IMO.

 

I don't know when Anakin embraced the Dark Side, but if you'll notice something: Obi-wan couldn't sense who was dropping into the hole in the roof of the elevator at the start of RotS. "The Dark Side clouds everything" Considering Anakin was his padawan for how many years, shouldn't he have been able to sense him? "Oh, it's you!" Anakin was already bathing in the dark waters by this time. Odds are it's when he slaughtered the Tusken Raiders. Anakin had been walking a dark path ever since then. The Jedi were too damn dumb (to borrow a line from The Dukes of Hazzard movie here) to see it. Even Mace, who had dark tendacies of his own..couldn't sense it.

 

Mace didn't trust him!!!! And the Council didn't want to train him in the first place!

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Vader is still the only Force-user in the saga who was shown to be able to identify specific presences in the Force. ( I mean the films, not the EU. )

 

Look at Annie's eyes in TPM when he says "I'm a person and my name is Anakin".
Can't you feel the hatred? He wants to roast that angel.

 

You may be spot on. But why would Dooku be dropping down through the same hole Anakin leapt out of? I'm not being facetious here, I'm honestly curious. But considering the Master/apprentice bond, wouldn't Obi-wan have been able to sense Anakin if Anakin hadn't been going Dark?

 

Well, Obi usually sensed events, Anakin was always sensing others. I think ObiWan had a bad sense about everything in ROTS, but didnt know where to place it. It was truly stunning for him to find out his friend had become part of the danger that surrounded him. Anakin's absolute turn is very hard to pin down, but there was lots of evidence abound for the seduction part of the dark side.

 

I agree that he never truly turned completely.... I dont want to write a speech about why... but I will say that IF there was a point where he was LOST and really lost faith in all that he once believed in... and began to really believe the darkside had more to offer besides the fact that he wanted it so that he could destroy sidious the sith and save his wife and unborn..... I think he began to trust more in the darkside than the light once he was faced with his mentor standing over him as he burned to death at his hands...

Once Obiwan began to lecture him while he layed there without legs and burning.. and HELPLESS.... I think he began to really believe the Jedi were lost.. there was no compassion, empathy or anything.. only fear and fear is of the darkside...

obiwan made a grave mistake letting Anakin burn at the STAKE.. ecspecially when he had NO CLUE why Anakin had fallen to these tricks and gone astray... he could have gone about things differently... remember Anakin telling him "dont make me kill you" Anakin would have listened to what obiwan had to say... but instead Obi JUDGED and condemned Ani to death no trial no jury.. He was the FIRST to ignite his saber and say I will do what I must... he threatened Anakins life.. and in front of his wife.. and after sneaking onto her ship to get to him.. (who sneaks onto a wifes ship to kill her husband??) ....and then after such a battle and after aknowledging that he seriously let Anakin "down"... the battle ends.. but then..... He let him BURN slowly!!!!!

So that point when Anakin is in total agony and feels his life slipping away.. his future with his wife and unborn slipping away and his plan to rule HIS galaxy after killing the sith slipping away all because of Obiwan and his opinions and cruelty.... so UNJEDI.... when he yells out
I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man........ I feel that too.
Id hate him as well.

I think that is when Anakin surrendered to the fact (in his head) that everything was out of balance after all.. and that the Jedi were LOST.. so lost that this would happen... As he lays there dying... (even though he will be saved) God the things that must have gone through his mind... THAT to me is the point.. the end all be all.
Obiwan proves to Anakin all the terrible things that Anakin feared were true of the Jedi now that they were lost... and in the gray... clouded. "I hate you!!" Is as close to a decision to be more DARKNESS than light than it gets.

I also remember in the book of return of the jedi obiwan tells Luke after the "certain point of view" talk... this.......... approved by LUCAS by the way.......

"What happened to your father was my Fault. The galaxy paid a high price for my Pride..." end Quote.

So..... that kind of tells you even Obiwan knew what he did was very wrong.

Always
Mz Gemini

 

I didn't see any fear. You're reaching here to prove Obi-wan did something DS. He didn't.

What "trial"? The Republic has become an Empire. The Emperor controls the courts. And Anakin was trying to kill Obi-Wan. As far as "condemning" someone to death, Anakin condemned himself by his actions. If Anakin had backed down, he would not have been sliced.

The concept of judgment does not seem to be popular right now. That's a cultural thing. It doesn't matter why Anakin did what he did. Everybody's got a reason. That doesn't make it right. Try to get over your aversion to judgment.

 

On the flip side, Obi-wan had ample reason to hate Anakin. He dealt with it a little better though.

I admit that I simply do not like Anakin/Vader (bad jedi, bad sith IMO), but let us not go blaming Obi-wan for his weakness.

 

But Obi-wan deserves some of the blame because he was a terrible teacher to Anakin and he didn't prepare him enough when it came to the Dark Side and what effects it has over a Jedi.

 

Well, according to a quote from Lucas, (thanks Sinister) Anakin made the choice to accept and embrace all that he had done before facing Kenobi on Mustafar. He was soo twisted, he rationalized being evil for a selfishly-good purpose and was lost from that point on. IMO, that would have been the moment he willingly turned to the dark side.

"Anakin on the balcony contemplating what he?s done. This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that?s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he?s done, but he?s now committed himself a path that he may not agree with but he is going to go along anyway.

It?s the one moment that says he?s self aware. He's rationalizing all of his behavior. He?s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he?s evil now and there?s nothing he can do about it and that?s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn?t do it but he can't stop it now."

-Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

This was posted in another thread but I thought it was a good post because it got me thinking about this part of the story. Thought maybe it would fit in this topic. Sorry for any lack of adequate consideration to previous posters who have said the same thing and also sorry for the long blog.

My interpretation on Anakin? It's not really so much about good or evil or turning or whatever from that character's POV. That's why Anakin is so confused. He has to make choices and decisions based on his own personal situation. Mostly (and there are other issues) he surrenders to the darkside because he's convinced Palpatine has a power that can save his wife. Add to this mental hangups about not wanting to fail his loved ones again because he feels responsible for not being a hero enough to save his Mom. This gives him a huge character weakness that he is unable to resist Palp's offer and is forced to attack one of his own to protect the knowledge that he believed Palp had. And then from his perspective he has to choose what he must do from there. Palpatine once more plays on Anakin's fear and mistrust and makes him think the Jedi have singularly not included him in some plot to overthrow the Senate and kill them all. Anakin chooses based on a viewpoint that he can construe from his perspective based on his own personal desires that is neither good nor evil. It's a character drama and that's the beauty of it. Good and evil are not distinct to Anakin in the choices he makes. Anakin does knows what evil is, and when he pledges himself to Palp's services for these powers he knows he will need to embrace the dark side fully and only then does he force himself to kill all the Jedi. Has it ever occurred to anyone that Anakin may not have even wanted to kill all the Jedi but at that point only cared about preserving Padme? Does anyone realize how far gone and deluded this character is at this point? Evil may not even be in it as Anakin is not really an evil person by nature.

All the time in epIII Anakin has a way of rationalizing what he is doing and it even presents enough of a dilemma of right/wrong that viewers who similarly see his decline scratch their head in puzzlement at their own incapability to see good/evil in this decline (as apparently some of them expect they should). His story is presented in a way that the viewer can see the mistakes Anakin is making but also be privy towards events in Anakin's life so we can see him as a misguided youth and to see why he makes those bad choices. He feels anger towards the sandpeople for his Mom and we understand his desire for revenge and giving into dark urges to kill them. We see the Council trying to use him as a pawn to find out Palpatine's dark connections and intentions in the Senate and can see his reason for starting to become suspicious of the Jedi. We see Anakin's chip with Kenobi of always having to be the reprimanded junior when he was always the talented promised golden one and can maybe relate with his frustrations at Kenobi being sort of a jerk at times and can be a little harsh (although he's mostly a good bloke and close to a father). We see how his whole "secret" life with a married wife and kids on the way conflicts with the entire structure of Jedi life and how the dark lor

 

If memory serves, Sidious made note to Vader while onboard the DS2 that it was strange that Vader could sense Luke and he could not. So it would appear that Sidious was able as well...

 

Is it bad that that gave me the image of Obi-Wan mumbling "I have a bad feeling about this" every 3 seconds?

There's also his line "I sense Lord Vader is in danger." It's also arguable that Luke senses Vader given that when he's on the Tydirium in RotJ he senses that Vader knows he's there.

 

Yes good points, Master StarWalker! Also Yoda semsed Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens and he also sensed the dark side in Dooku in AOTC. In ROTS he little green Jedi also knew when Mace bit the dust, when Anakin turned. Not to mention he sensed the clones betrayal on Kashyyyk...

 

I have to vote for when Anakin killed the younglings. Everything up until then could be excused:

The Tusken massacre = temporary insanity due to massive psychological trauma.
Killing Dooku = revenge with a bit of peer pressure thrown in.
Attacking Mace = the man was going Dark Side right before his eyes, and the life of his wife and unborn child was on the line.
Killing the Jedi Knights/Padawans = he'd been tricked into thinking they were evil (thanks in part to Mace), and the Jedi fighting back so hard only convinced him of it all the more.

Once he raised his sword and personally (as opposed to bombing or ordering troops) killed several unarmed, innocent children in cold blood, however, with malice and forethought - that was the point of no return. That one scene rendered Anakin's redemption in ROTJ almost impossible to accept. Nothing could excuse or justify that. NOTHING.

 

When he killed the younglings at the temple.

 

Sounds like you watched a different trilogy than I did.

Concerning the younglings: he killed Tusken younglings in AOTC, and all you speciesist Sand People haters didn't so much as bat an eyelash.

 

Concerning the younglings: he killed Tusken younglings in AOTC, and all you speciesist Sand People haters didn't so much as bat an eyelash.


QFT...

Instant classic A-F!!
I don't know who just got pwned, but that was some seriously funny wit.


After all...

a youngling is a youngling...

Right?









Even Tusken Raider brats.

 

Anakin THINKS he knows what he is doing but he really doesn't. In fact, he sucks at the whole logical department because he never considered that there are consequences for being a Sith nor does he have any idea of how far he has fallen into the rabbit hole until he is told that Padme is dead. Only by then does Anakin realise the truth that he has indeed become the very evil he was sworn to destroy.

 

Yep.
At that point, he slipped... fell down... and didn't try to get up.

 

But killing Jedi younglings is much more serious crime than killing Tuskens.