PT When did Palpatine become aware of Anakin?

How so?

10 years 'before' is not very specific, Anakin simply says he didn't see Padme 'in ten years', that's not exactly specific in my opinion. As well as Obi-Wan says Dyas got killed 'almost' ten years ago. Again its not specific.

Then Ob-Wan says Dyas ordered a clone army 'almost' ten years ago, then Obi-Wan says: ''I was under the impression he (Dyas) was killed before that''.

So Obi-Wan says that Dyas was probably killed even before that 'almost' 10 years ago timeline.

Not clear.

One thing is for sure; ''Chancellor'' Valorum ordered Dyas to deal with the Pykes, and that was Dyas's last mission, as he died before completing his mission. So that means Dyas died before TPM, because Valorum loses his status as Chancellor during TPM, and Palpatine becomes the new Chancellor in TPM. So Chancellor Valorum definitely send Dyas to his last mission before TPM, so it means Dyas died before TPM.

 

Where was this revealed? I’ve scoured the internet and can find no sources to support this. It’s an incredible revelation and finally gives a definitive answer to the question of how far Sifo-Dyas had fallen.

 

If Lucas intended for Sifo Dyas to be a Sith Lord who died before/during TPM, its curious that he never told any of the writers who worked on the novels. Wookieepedia says that Dyas died right after TPM in both Legends and Canon.

we know that Dooku ordered the Pykes to kill Dyas. We know that Dooku didn’t start working for Palpatine until after Maul got chopped in half. So we know Dyas died after TPM.

 

No, Obi-Wan said that he was under the impression he was killed before that. His death was before the events of TPM.

Lucas didn't work on the novels to begin with. The writers didn't know a lot of things, that's why there have always been so many discrepancies between the EU and Lucas's vision. Disney's works are no different in that regard either.

Like I said, it's from the book "The Star Wars Archives. 1999-2005". Here's a photo I've just taken:

 

It just seems odd. I read an interview with James Luceno where he said he spoke with Lucas while he was writing Darth Plagueis and Lucas had to approve what was in the novel.

Leaving aside the novels, does Sifo Dyas being a Sith apprentice contradict the Clone Wars? It’s been a while since I watched season 6, but I seem to remember them saying that Dooku ordered the Pykes to kill Sifo Dyas. If this happened before TPM, wouldn’t that mean that Sidious had Maul, Dooku, and Sifo Dyas as apprentices all at the same time?

 

No, Lucas had nothing to do with the Plagueis novel.

It means he had them working for him simultaneously. But only one was his Sith apprentice at a given time. Dooku replaced Maul, and Maul replaced Sifo-Dyas.

 

Here’s a quote from James Luceno about Lucas’s involvement with the Darth Plagueis novel: “George was involved in the early stages. When the book was first proposed, I wrote to him and asked whether there was any reason why Plagueis couldn't be a non-human, and he wrote back that Plagueis could be a Muun and sent me some artist renderings of the character. From that point on, everything was approved, as they're saying, at the highest level. I worked most closely with George's right-hand man at Lucas licensing, Howard Roffman. It was a strange way to go about the book, because I kind of had to bypass both Del Rey and the usual editorial staff at Lucasfilm and work directly with Howard over the course of what amounted to about a year of preparation.

I submitted many, many versions of the outline until we finally reached consensus on where we wanted to go with the book. The marketing text about ?this is canon at the highest level? ? I suppose that's true, that a lot of the stuff came from the very top levels of Lucasfilm. Everything was approved at that high level. I had to make the assumption that Howard was speaking directly with George about a lot of this stuff. I didn't have any meetings directly with George, but it seemed like a lot of the approval was coming through him to Howard. I was not privy to all of the things that happened behind the scenes.”

 

As he said himself, he worked with Howard Roffman, the person in charge of Lucasfilm Licensing. Not George Lucas. Years before that novel was greenlit, George had been working for years on TCW and Underworld, and Palpatine's backstory (among many other things) are completely different from what that novel presented.

As for Plagueis's possible appearance, Lucas had once suggested the following Neimoidian concept art to Licensing:

 

Well, in my view, this (along with thinking that Plagueis could be Neimoidian) seems to be something that Lucas said at one point, but probably changed his mind since then. It doesn't track with what happens in the Clone Wars series.

 

Of course it does.

 

Dooku is "someone powerful, someone who wanted to be Sifo-Dyas" not Maul. Maul was "Darth Maul" prior to Sifo-Dyas being murdered.

 

Maul became Darth Maul once Sifo-Dyas was killed. Dooku wanted to be Sifo-Dyas, yes. How does that contradict anything?

 

The point is that Maul was already Darth Maul before Sifo-Dyas was killed.


Sifo-Dyas was killed around the time of TPM, immediately after the order was placed - not by Maul, but by the already corrupted Dooku.

It wasn't a case of "Sidious's apprentices were first Darth Sifo-Dyas, then Darth Maul".

It was a case of "Sidious's first apprentice was Darth Maul, and Sifo-Dyas & Dooku were "non-Darths" who were working for Sidious at the same time that Maul was."


Maul was (until his apparent death on Naboo) the only one of the three who was a "true Sith" - then Dooku replaced Maul - but Sifo-Dyas was never in the Sith chain of command in the first place - he was a dupe.


The idea of Maul being a full Sith Apprentice for only a few days or weeks, between Sifo Dyas's death and TPM, undermines the character as portrayed in TPM.

 

I'm pretty sure that they say in The Clone Wars that Dooku ordered the Pykes to kill Sifo Dyas. If that's true, Sifo Dyas would have to be killed either during the end of TPM or soon after. It would have to be after Maul was "killed."

 

Works for me. Sifo-Dyas's last mission may have began immediately before TPM (with Valorum sending him on it), but it's plausible that it ended immediately after, with him being murdered by the Pykes.

 

Which is why I said perhaps Maul defeated Sifo-Dyas long before that Pyke thing, and took the title officially (otherwise why Maul succeeded Dyas if Lucas says Dyas was the Sith apprentice before Maul but, Dyas was still alive close to TPM, the Sith doesn't work like bureaucracy) but Maul let Dyas live because Sidious still needed Dyas for Jedi Council connections. Then Sidious didn't need Dyas at some point and ordered his death by using Pykes close to TPM.

Also I think Tyranus was the name that both Dyas and Dooku used, so that explains the mess about how Tyranus dealt with Kamino and the others, while Dyas was also dealing with them. So the first apprentice might be Darth Tyranus, but Sifo-Dyas was using that Sith name also not only Dooku. So that also explains why Dooku wanted to be Sifo-Dyas (essentially first Darth Tyranus).

 

Lucas has a storied history of contradicting himself in interviews on a panoply of topics. He's a classic example of an unfettered revisionist, one that even injects falsified statements into a historical context to control the current narrative (according to J.W. Rinzler). Why are we taking his statements about Sifo-Dyas as factual? Clearly, what's on-screen in TCW paints a completely different—and canonical—picture. Sifo-Dyas was never a Sith lord. Perhaps Lucas toyed with the idea at one point, but it's certainly no longer valid.

 

Not only this but further questions arise.

If Sifo-Dyas was a Sith and also a member of the Jedi Council. So the JC has a Sith Lord right there in their council and yet they sense nothing?

Dooku left the order so he was not around other Jedi. But Sifo-Dyas apparently was.

Also, this would make it two other Jedi, in addition to Anakin, that turned to the Dark Side in short order.
Both quite senior Jedi at that.
That would make turning a Jedi into something not that hard. Sidious turned three over less than 20 years.

Also, was the order placed before TPM? That would make it more than ten years ago in AotC and yet Obi-Wan says "almost ten years ago" as in "less than". Both with regards to Sifo-Dyas being killed and the order being placed.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

True:

Please tell your Master Sifo-Dyas... that his order will be met on time.
I'm sorry. Master--
Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?
Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago.
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. But I'm sure he would have been proud of the army we've built for him.
....
They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.

Which makes "Sifo-Dyas was Maul's predecessor as a Sith Lord" problematic.

 

Not sensing it is not a problem, because the vision of the Jedi was already clouded and Dooku of course get into a contact with many Jedi and none of them sense anything. In Dark Disciple canon novel (essentially it was going to be a TCW episode) the Jedi Council couldn't sense Quinlan Vos when Vos was turned to the Dark side and was already working for the Sith, they even wanted to sense the dark side in him, but they couldn't then Yoda said he can sense it if he physically touches Vos and he touches Vos without Vos knowing it only then Yoda learns Vos turned to the dark side.

Luke failed to be sure if Ben Solo turned to the dark side as well, he only be sure when he sneak into Ben Solo's room and concentrated on Ben Solo's thoughts by using the Force.

So in short its not easy to sense well trained Force users if they want to hide it especially when the Jedi's vision was already clouded.

Many other Jedi also turned during Clone Wars and before that, I doubt Sidious put an extra effort in it like he did with Anakin. Probably Dooku and Dyas were already turned to dark side and Sidious just learned that and used them.

See how Barriss, Pong Krell and Grand Inquisitor turned (and many Inquisitors) and Sidious did nothing, they just turned to the dark side on their own. Jedi are and always be vulnerable to the dark side, you don't need a Sith Lord to do it.

I think Dyas and Dooku were working together and they were using the same name ''Tyranus'' but Dyas was the apprentice of Sidious not Dooku, so at some point ''Dooku wanted to be Sifo-Dyas'' and then Dooku also claimed on Oba-Diah that ''Sifo-Dyas helped him'' so that implies that Dyas was indeed helping the Sith in the canon too.

They also removed Dyas from the Jedi council at some point due to Dyas being an ''extremists'' so that also points out the potential of Dyas turning to the dark side. There aren't many council members being removed from the council, Dyas was one of the few.

 

Well, this is a bit of a bomb. Very interesting.

It would all be a bit problematic unless we assume that, at the beginning of TPM, Maul had only relatively recently become Palpatine's apprentice. The one thing that might support this is the line "You have been well-trained, my young apprentice. They will be no match for you." Palpatine is reassuring Maul here--a "Don't worry, you'll do fine!" thing--it's the kind of thing Palpatine might say if he sent Maul on his very first mission. If Maul had been a seasoned combat veteran, why this line? (Counterargument: It's not necessarily Maul's first mission, it's his first fight against Jedi. OK.)

It might work, but yeah, I think it's more than a little convoluted--more convoluted than what was suggested by the AOTC dialogue, at any rate.

I'm looking forward to the cheaper version of that "archives" set to come out.

 

Well in the new canon Maul already faced a Jedi (a skilled apprentice, who is on a fast track to be a Jedi Knight according to the writer of the comic book) named Eldra Kaitis before TPM, Maul did that secretly by disobeying Sidious's orders but then, of course, Sidious knows all of it and he approves Maul's mission where Maul kills his first Jedi, so they both know it was not Maul's first mission against the Jedi.

Perhaps you can argue that it was Maul's first mission against 2 Jedi at the same time but then I doubt that too.

Sidious also tells Maul later; ''Lord Maul, be mindful, let them make the first move.''

This was after Maul's first fight against Qui-Gon on Tatooine, and Sidious again does his coaching thing here. I think its about Sidious showing his confidence in his apprentice Maul, and we learned that Sidious trained Maul, and Maul wasn't a former Jedi like Dooku.

Thus that line is important for informing the audience, and he never planned to replace him like he wanted replace Dooku, similar to how he immediately went to save Anakin when Anakin lost on planet Mustafar. His apprentices are important to his plans unless he finds a better one, as we've seen in RotJ he also gave up on Vader easily (despite saving him on Mustafar) when he find a better apprentice (Luke) but when there's none he of course does his coaching and would save them.

Sidious was also coaching Anakin when he was fighting Dooku in the novel, and Dooku even surprised as he see Sidious wanted him lose.

 

It’s easier to figure out if it went Maul, Sifo-Dyas, Dooku. But Sifo-Dyas, Maul, Dooku makes for a hectic few months or weeks, or days. Whatever the events - if it goes that way I don’t think we know the full story.

The Clone Wars series shows Sifo-Dyas is recognized by the Kaminoian Cloners as a wholey separate and different person from Tyranus.

It’s possible Sifo-Dyas was turned to the dark side after being expelled from the Jedi Council.

Sifo-Dyas foresaw the Clone Wars through the Force when none of the other Jedi could. After careful examination the rest of the council concluded there was no evidence they could find in the Force to support Sifo-Dyas visions of the future and need for an army.

Sifo-Dyas was so certain of his continued visions he would not back down. The resulting impasse ended with Sifo-Dyas removed from the Jedi council. From there Dyas was sent on field work far from Courasant operating with wide autonomy from the Jedi council and Jedi Order. He was basically demoted or retired to roving Jedi Knight. And in that capacity Sifo-Dyas was helpful to Chancellor Valorum.

During this time of semi-exile as a knight errant is when Palpatine could have recruited Sifo-Dyas. We see how Palpatine can twist visions of the future to his own ends.

 

How do you know that? We don't know when Sifo-Dyas was killed. We do know that it happened before TPM, back when Valorum was Chancellor.

By the Pykes, under Dooku's orders. Nobody said he was killed by Maul.

Again, unless Lucas misspoke, the former was exactly the case. Maul became a Sith Lord after Sifo-Dyas and Dooku became one after Maul. But all three had been serving Sidious for quite some time.

Or months, or years. You're assuming that Maul being appointed as a Sith Lord near the events of TPM prevents him from having been trained by Sidious ever since he was a kid to become one, when that's not the case at all. If not, then I don't see what's being undermined.

I'd say extremely undermining was, for example, the situation as presented in the Plagueis novel. Not just in regards to Maul but everyone else as well.

 

We know from Obi-Wan that he was killed "almost ten years ago". And TPM and AOTC are approximately ten years apart. And Sidous calls Maul Darth Maul in TPM.