When does Anakin really turn to Darth Vader?

I'm not searching for the obvious answer of "When he's knighted Vader" but me and my friends were kinda debating this yesterday. We're undecided on when Anakin truly becomes Darth Vader.

- Theres when he disobeys Mace, and starts off towards the Chancellor's office.
- When he cuts off Mace's hand after his long dramatic moment of confusion.
- When he pledges himself to Sidious's teaching, .'. earning the title of Darth Vader
- During/ After the purge on the temple.
- The slaughter of the seperatists
- The force choking of Padme
- The dismemberment of Anakin/ Vader

My friends all argued it was once he pledged himself to the darkside and was granted the title of Darth Vader. Although I somewhat agree with them, I believe he truly becomes Darth Vader after he chokes Padme.

Throughout all the behind the scenes footage of ROTS, Lucas kept stressing to Hayden "You're doing this for Padme" and it's true, Anakin only went to save Palpataine because he promised him the knowledge to save Padme from death. After cutting off Mace's hand the first thing Anakin says is "What have I done?!" which is a sign of remorse and maybe even regret. Anakin then pledges himself to Sidious's teachings with one rule;

"Just help me save Padme's life, I can't live without her."

So my reasoning was that he was not yet truly a Sith, and not yet Vader. He did these evil things with good intentions. It was greedy of him, which is the shroud of the darkside, but it shows him in the temple and even after the seperatist slaughter crying. He didn't exactly like doing these acts, but he did it for Padme.

But once Obi Wan appears Anakin realized he did these things for her and she "betrayed" him. His anger rises and he attacks Padme himself and becomes Darth Vader fully. After Padme is down, Vader starts his life full of selfish and destructive acts of monstrosity.

 

I believe it was when he pledged himself to Sidious. He got the name and he began to play the Sith game. That was when he became Darth Vader. He had regret after cutting off Mace's arm, after killing the Jedi/Separtists (he stood on the balcony crying) and later had regret while choking Padme (which is why he stopped) and while choking Obi-Wan (which is why he weakened enough in the force for Obi-Wan to throw him off.) He showed regret after being re-suited too, screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when he found out Padme had died. But he'd been Vader all of that time.

As for Vader actually embracing the Sith way - I think that was gradual. More and more each passing day; at first unsure of himself with lots of regrets and turbulent feelings, at moments even certain he'd done the wrong thing and other times sure he'd done the right thing. But after some years he would adjust to being a Sith and pursue it unrelentingly.

However, at all times, he was unable to completely kill off the candle that burned inside that represented Anakin the Jedi. In that sense, one could say that he never did actualy fully embrace being a Sith technically. But for all practical purposes, he was a Sith lord from the moment he pledged himself to the Sith Order in Palpatine's office.

I think the same could be said of Dooku - he too had embraced the Sith Order and was a Sith Lord. However, when he first did it, it is very likely that he struggled the same way Anakin did. I am unsure if in the end Dooku had fully embraced the Sith or not - I think the movies were attempting to show that the had - that there was no good in him (from a Sith/Jedi standpoint).

 

A distinction.

When does he turn into Vader? Or when does he actually go "evil"?

As far as when does he turn Vader, I'd say that's when Sidious names him Darth Vader.

When does he turn "evil"?

I would have to say that it was the moment he stepped into the Jedi Temple and began killing Jedis.

What happened with Mace Windu can be attributed to a momentary lapse of reason or judgement, and doesn't necessarilly mean he was evil yet. It was emotional, as opposed to premeditated. Mace Windu wasn't exactly following the Jedi Code either. I believe Anakin could have explained his actions and been forgiven, had he realized his error later.

But once Anakin kills that first Jedi in the Temple, he has officially chosen and acted on a life of evil. Once this happens, and especially after the Younglings, he can never be forgiven. So if you're defining becoming Darth Vader in the spiritual sense, I'd say it was the Temple.

 

Step 1 - takes Windu's arm off.
Step 2 - Watches Palps blast Windu out the window.
Step 3 - "What have I done?"---Evil.

 

I believe it was a slow turn, but he does not become the full fledge Sith until all the good he cares about is gone. Once Sidious informs Vader that he 'killed' Padme, the transformation is complete, as his jaded justification for accepting Sidious teachings (to save Padme) is gone and all he has left is Sidious.

 

When he beats Sebulba in the B.E. Classic.

 

I say is when he gets Burned up and gets into the suit for all etarnal Punishment. If I were to direct Revenge I would have Anakin first turn to the Darkside then later in the film earn his title as Darth Vader when he gets into the suit.

 

I believe slaughtering the Jawas is where he turned into Darth Vader.

 

When he is talking to padme (in RoTS I believe) and he says "he wants more" than the life of a jedi.

 

But that wasn't exactly him turning to Darth Vader. Even the best of Jedi have some cravings and wants, but they are to realize it's wrong and control it. Anakin realized it was wrong, but couldn't control it and accept that he was already "pushing the line" of jedi'ism by being married.

 

I believe that Anakin became Vader once he married Padme. At that point he became more devoted to his wife than he was to the Jedi, and that led to his downfall.

 

When he became Vader must have been when he lost his identity, and i believe that happened in Palpatines office.

 

I would have to agree with the killings in the Jedi Temple.

The slaughter of the Raiders, while very wrong, was somewhat understandable because they tortured and killed his mother. Not being raised, from birth, in the order he had a different outlook on love and family.

 

Even if it is understandable, I still believe that slaughter of the raiders represented a turning point from Anakin-the-nice-boy right into Vader-the-take-no-crap-from-no-one.

 

"Darth Vader" is nothing more than a name.

 

George Lucas himself has said that Darth Vader is indeed more than a name, but an alternate personality. The "shadow Anakin", if you will, a la shadow Link.


Anakin may have truly never been gone, but he did some things as Vader that Anakin wouldn't have done.

 

The decisive moment, to my thinking, was when he had a choice between aiding Master Windu or aiding Palpatine (knowing Palpatine to be a Sith Lord), and chose to betray the Jedi. That was a typically Sith act, and further one of consciously setting aspiration to dark side power above his loyalty to the Jedi Order.

I think that scene was written, re-written, and re-shot to play up the tension, and to make it the decisive "turning point" of the film. From there out, Anakin remains Vader, and Sith, until he turns the tables again by destroying the Emperor and saving his son.

 

Shadow Link reference! Yay!!!!

 

Ditto yay, I just beat Shadow Link in OOT/MQ with the M. Hammar because I was too lazy to get the sword he doesn't have and it worked, yay!

But back on topic, I would agree that the shadow of Anakin lingered in Vader throughout his life. I would imagine that there were moments when that shadow even overtook Vader's senses - like at first when he found himself dealing with those the Emperor had enslaved. EU showed this well, Vader was firmly against it and Sidious declared that it would be temporary to appease Vader. When/if it didn't turn out that way, I am sure that Vader with his inherent rebellious nature would have thwarted Sidious in little ways - freeing a slave here and there or letting some escape, etc. Because although he was Vader, he was still Anakin also, just like all other Sith Lords.

But that does not mean that Anakin was some soft-hearted fake Sith. I believe he became as much of a Sith as possible and for the most part, the good in Anakin - the part I'd call his "shadow" was smothered and trapped by Vader to a large extent. Then of course at the end of ROTJ, the shadow grew mighty, overtook Vader, killed him and well you know how it ends...

Course I just made the shadow the 'good' instead of the bad in Anakin, but it can work either way.

 

I think he began to turn into Darth Vader when he began his attempt to "save" Padmé. He was blinded by his love and care for her, so he couldn't realize that he would be drawing on the Dark Side of the Force to keep her alive.

 

I don't know what that means. He was told explicitly that it would require the dark side.

 

I'm going with the pledging himself to Sidious.

 

I was referring to the point when Yoda tells him to realize that death is a part of life and that fear of loss is synonymous with the dark side.

YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

ANAKIN: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

ANAKIN: What must I do, Master Yoda?

YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

(credit to http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html)

He wasn't necessarily told that saving Padme would require the dark side at this point (which is distinct from stating that the fear of loss is synonymous to the dark side). The fact that he didn't follow Yoda's advice at this point means he began his turn into Darth Vader.

The discussion in this thread goes very well with the "Obi-wan vs Darth Maul" thread. There was some mention that Obi-Wan was drawn in by the dark side upon seeing Qui-Gon being struck down. However, the fact that Obi-Wan could realize his impulsiveness, recover and drawn on the light side to win the duel speaks to his maturity as a Jedi. When faced with a similar situation (being drawn into the dark side), Anakin did not realize his defection and failed to heed Yoda's advice, at which point he began to turn into Vader.

 

From the "Opera" scene onward, he knew it was going to be about the dark side.

 

Right...the scene I quoted in the above posting occurred before the Opera scene. The emotions he felt at this earlier scene demonstrated a tendency toward the dark side before he actually was told that the powers of the dark side could save Padme.