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Discussion Where does Star Wars go as an IP from here?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Future Films - Spoilers Allowed' started by 2Cleva, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I feel like there's definitely a way to make interconnected story-lines, or disconnected stories building up to a connected bigger one, without making SW character types into superheroes. I really have no interest in that. Even with all their magic and sword-play, I never saw the Jedi as superheroes. This is still fantasy, while mixing east and west styes. There's no need to make it comic-booky.
     
  2. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    You make a very strong case. Just wanted to point out that it seems like it will be Favraeu with the keys more than Feige but that definitely seems on point.

    I think the term "superhero" is being taken too literally. Not crazy powers but more unique traits. Han Solo in the OT was a superhero (pilot skills) for all intents and purposes.
     
  3. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    From here, there is only one way: IPv6.

    All the IPv4 ranges are full.

    This is the way. I have spoken.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  4. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Tell a good story and tell it well. The ST shows that fancy action and visuals are boring without a reason to care.

    Imagine if the Mandalorian was never clear about Mando's background, treating it all as a mystery, or telling us it doesn't matter. The motivations of conscious beings are interesting, and this is the core of any great story, no matter how weird or wild it appears on the surface. And these motivations just need to be relatable or intriguing; they don't have to be brand new. Again, look at Mando: his motives are the oldest in storytelling, but they're powerful nonetheless.
     
  5. ChrisLyne

    ChrisLyne Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2002
    I think the list in the original post over exaggerates the negatives a bit. Yes, toy sales are down but that's a general trend, not just Star Wars. Video game sales, especially Fallen Order, are doing well even if fans don't like Battlefront or EA. Attendance at Disney dropped because after years of price increases they finally pushed it too high (no one stopped going to Disney because they added a new land, Star Wars or not). Resistance was said to only be planned for 2 seasons, given this was announced before the season even began, how far in advance animation work is done, that the ST era effectively ends with TROS, and a new series is already rumoured to be coming later this year, all seems to support this. It also ignores positive things we know are coming like the Kenobi series.

    Putting that to one side, we need to accept that TFA was a once in a generation event. It was the return of Star Wars, the first film in a decade, the return of the original cast after 32 years. That level of hype, box office, and pop cultural impact very likely won't be replicated. I don't believe anyone at Disney or Lucasfilm expected the rest of the trilogy to perform like that. Arguably the only way to do that now is to do what Marvel did - build up a story over a decade of interconnect story telling.

    TROS is making over a billion. That's pretty much in the bank. It still has a shot at being #2 for the year and maybe coming in above TLJ. A little disappointing sure but still a good result and profit. Look at it this way - Disney have released 5 films in 5 years and all of them bar Solo made over a billion dollars. That's not a sign of an unhealthy franchise. Add to that The Mandalorian has been a massive success. It's the flagship series of Disney+, Baby Yoda has already conquered the world and the show is only officially available in 5 countries. Word of mouth from those who have seen it (legitimately or otherwise) is incredibly positive and that should only help Disney+ when it launches in more countries this year.

    I think @Urple is right. What comes next will very likely be more MCU like. With interconnected stand alone films (and maybe Disney+ series) building towards bigger events and "crossover" movies. If for no other reason than that's where the big box office money is. I disagree on the era, purely because I think Disney want to move away from the whole Skywalker era completely at this point so they can have a totally fresh start without any expectations, but the model I 100% think is where we're going next.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  6. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Tell compelling stories that are personal to the filmmaker and continue to take risks. Treating Star Wars merely as IP means you're only looking at it as a medium for profit and not as modern mythology.
     
  7. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2004
    @Urple
    I am with you 100%! Just give us new everything. There's this weird Hollywood thing about delivering the familiar. SW is still SW, even without Luke, Han, R2D2, etc and the suits at Disney must realize this.
     
  8. Justin Gensel

    Justin Gensel Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2018
    The iconography of Star Wars is timeless and eternal and persists across all stories: The Force, the Jedi, Lightsabers, Droids, Starships, Exotic Worlds down to the very music, which serves as a pulse for every film or series. You can enclose any number or type of character and any kind of story into that framework and make it a big thing. As others have said, this is modern mythology. Alongside comic books, I would dare to argue that Star Wars is the definitive modern myth, going on now for 40+ years. There's oceans of stories to tell and things to do. There should not be any reason for one to say 'I can't tell a story with any of this'
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
    ChrisLyne and Panakas_Dawg like this.
  9. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I agree. But in that case, the visuals need to communicate Star Wars.

    But honestly, for me? All that means is domes. Lots of domes.
     
  10. Urple

    Urple Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Jedi are magical space wizards. Their mythology is rooted in something deeper and more spiritual than any Marvel superhero's, but purely in terms of on-screen action - they jump higher, have superhuman reflexes, and use telekinetic abilities. They're superheroes.

    Like I said in my post, Star Wars is also rife with "normal" people who seem invulnerable without explanation, like Hawkeye or Black Widow, so I'm not talking exclusively about Jedi. Normal people can be superheroes just as easily.

    I would welcome anybody argue a distinction between Star Wars characters and superheroes like the Guardians of the Galaxy. I mean, even to the extremes of Captain Marvel destroying spaceships by herself versus the capabilities of Episode IX's big bad in the finale.

    I feel like making the distinction is perhaps defensive, because Star Wars fans don't want to be superhero fans. But we can make the distinction with themes and storytelling, since the *feeling* of Star Wars is not at all the feeling of your typical superhero comic book.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
    2Cleva likes this.
  11. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    While superhero comics and SW both share a historical origin based on campy, sci-fi, pulp fiction, and mythological tales, SW - the characters within, the Jedi, Han Solo, etc-were never presented as SUPER Heroes, within their own galaxy, or ours. Heroes certainly. But not Superheroes like Marvel and DC currently does them. They're not X-men, or the Avengers, or even Superman, or Batman. It's a different tone. And when I say I don't want to see them, or have ever seen them, as comic book book superheroes I mean I don't want that same tone applied to SW.

    And I like comic books. And superheroes. I'm a fan of both. I'm not being defensive about anything.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
    Urple likes this.
  12. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Ehh. That's not really true. The Jedi, although not believed in by the masses in the OT and ST, were revered originally in the PT. From Trade Federation to Anakin ("no one can kill a Jedi").

    I agree with your point on how SW heroes compare to Marvel or DC but a generic term of anyone with powers that everyone doesn't have naturally it becomes "super" - whether The Force or Magic vs Muggles or any comic book power.
     
    Urple likes this.
  13. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    So is Harry Potter a 'superhero'? Is Gandalf the gray?

    This is all getting into a fine line, I suppose. But I really never saw Jedi Knight-Wizards played up as the GFFA superheroes. They were Knights, Monks, and Sheriff rolled in one. They were definitely esteemed, and mythic. Heroes and guardians of by-gone age.

    But not like a current comic book superhero. Just a different tone, in my mind.
     
    Urple likes this.
  14. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Yes but I'm not sure that the filmmaker's personal vision is a strong fit with the notion of a modern mythology. The two may or may not square up. Personal vision is different from myth, which typically seeks to explain universal conditions and metaphysical origins. If the personal can expand to the universal, or something close to it, then they could fit.

    I have a much different view on this, of course, than others I've seen post here. I'm not interested in Star Wars usually functioning as a mere vehicle for a director's auteristic vision. Auteurs shouldn't even be interested in doing Star Wars; they should be interested in crafting something distinctly theirs. But the biggest problem I see here is a neglect of a coherent story. Once we establish how the fictional world functions, it should remain consistent; bringing in a number of radical new visions just muddies the story and world up. It can begin to be about nothing and everything.

    Of course, another way to look at this is to embrace the reality that Star Wars only has one auteur: George Lucas. Other authors need not apply -- they should simply continue the traditional mythical adventure that he began.
     
  15. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Well yes, there's an inherent push and pull between "Are you being faithful to Lucas' vision" vs "How are you making Star Wars your own?" It's a conversation worth having and I don't think either question is wrong to ask.
     
    The Chalk Jedi likes this.
  16. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    What do you mean by conversation? How do you imagine these questions being asked?

    I wouldn't want LFL to intentionally hire auteurs who contradict the world, myth, and values that have been set up. For example, an absurdist or nihilistic Star Wars would be a non-starter for me, although I love seeing those values in other settings.
     
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  17. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Well to put it another way, how do you uphold the integrity of what's come before, while also taking the narrative and themes into new and compelling territory? That's certainly been the challenge of telling all these stories in a post-Lucas world, and of course, everyone's mileage has varied.
     
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  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I think the main difference between Star Wars movie characters and superhero movie characters is just that the former don’t fly around and throw each other through buildings and stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  19. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    I don't understand the challenge. I believe some creators and fans may be confused because they've lost touch with the roots of Star Wars: it's like being confused about the integrity of biblical themes -- these are mythological stories about humanity's struggle with the nature of good and evil.

    Compelling need not be new in such universal territory. The only requirement is that audiences can relate with the characters's struggle between right and wrong.

    If some filmmakers have struggled here, it's only because they aren't in touch with these themes. It has nothing to do with Star Wars' ability to have something relevant to offer contemporary audiences.
     
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  20. Justin Gensel

    Justin Gensel Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2018
    I think the trick has to be in interpreting Star Wars the same ways in which we look at Greek Mythology. If you take away certain elements, such as regular intervention by the Olympians, iconic monsters such as the Nemean Lion, the Hydra or Medusa or reducing the colossal stature of the epic Greek Hero, you have strayed away from true mythology into a different type of fable. Star Wars has the same basic idea I think. Jedi are like the ancient heroes of Greece: touched by divinity, wielding powerful weapons, their physicality bolstered by a touch of the divine in the make-up (the Force). They are above the common beings of their age, yet still prone to doubt, suspicion, passion and failure. I dislike the term Wizard, because even though they dress in robes and have some degree of mental/extrasensory manipulation powers, they are more active than a classic Wizard, cloistered in a tower simply waiting to be found in order to provide a boon. They are active in the same vein as Arthur's Knights or Charlemagne's Paladins as questers and beings of action.

    Alien races or war machines take the place of our larger than life monsters. The Force is the Fire of Olympus or the Word of the Fates, bringing the intangible into reality, weaving a work of destiny and fate that guides heroes to epic confrontations and either failure or glory. And every other denizen too has their part in this. Just as in Greek myth, they comprise everything from companions to lovers to villains to kings and queens and also co-actors, sharing the larger stage with these massive heroes. If you try to take that away, you're pulling out one of the fundamental building blocks that makes that work what it is. As Gandalf himself said in Lord of the Rings:

    "He that breaks a thing to to better understand what it is has left the path of Wisdom."
     
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  21. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019

    Awesome post, and you provide one of the best defenses for the on-going presence of superweapons in SW: "war machines take the place of our larger than life monsters."

    Many fans assume that superweapons themselves are too cliche and in themselves somehow an inherent problem, but the truth is the only problem is using them in the wrong way, as a too easy plot device.

    But there's a small difference between easy plot device and an essential element of the GFFA world. I've always believed their presence is just as essential as Jedi and totalitarians -- they are indeed the larger than life monsters of a technological society.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  22. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Yes, but there are all kinds of myths, legends and fables that Star Wars can draw from. Not all, or even most, of them contain cosmic monsters or demons that present an existential threat at every turn. There are much smaller stories and morality tales in the mythic backlog too. That’s what Favreau understood when writing the Mandalorian. And as such, despite the absence of a universe-destroying Dark Lord, and the inclusion of only one small child that seems “touched by the divine,” it feels more mythic than most of the Star Wars we’ve gotten since 2015. Perhaps more in the fable or legend mode, but it works wonders. Baby Yoda, though, in that context, was a stroke of genius. Elevated the material to the level you’re pining for.

    That said, I don’t think ALL Star Wars films and products have to meet that kind of mythic standard. It can branch out into other modes and genres of storytelling, and still hold up because of how interesting a world it is. I’m open to stories that play more like historical fiction (Rogue One), for example, and that barely scratch the surface of myth. But always with that hint of the sublime underneath.
     
  23. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Considering the jumps and speed run of the Jedi and the Sith throwing things around with the Force - that is really splitting hairs.

    [​IMG]

    When Star Wars starts drawing from other myths, legends, fables that it was originally designed for - is it still Star Wars? Because that background is what made it it.

    If LFL decides to tell other types of stories that run counter what it was originally created on - then SW really becomes just an IP to do whatever in the GFAA - with no thematic consistent identity. Do that - and although those who love SW regardless might enjoy it - the GA won't know what to expect. Whenever an IP becomes unreliable - they suffer.

    The Mandalorian definitely tries to channel as much as the original identity of Star Wars as possible, unlike TLJ that tried to use a different approach. Not debating the quality or value of either - just noting the differences.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    For what it's worth I believe GL has said that he doesn't consider the Jedi superheroes.
     
  25. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Again - what's a superhero? I see so many try to sum it up as people in capes.

    King Arthur, Superman, Luke Skywalker, Hercules, Gandalf, Harry Potter - all are superheroes for their genre/IP/era. Whatever powers they have correlate to the worlds they are to live in. The "superheroes" of Marvel/DC are designed for the world of this era - therefore the powers are more extravagant as our lives are. Just as the villains/enemies/bad guys are larger than life, so are the heroes.