which star destroyers have gravity well projectors?

I believe that at several points in the Enemy Lines duology the Mon Mothma is referred to as a modified ISD.

In addition, the Defender/Nebula design is already overburdened, loaded with five or six fighter squadrons, powerful engines, heavy shields, and a weapons battery equivalent to an ISD-II despite being 65% the size. Therefore, I find it highly doubtful that somebody would decide to cram gravity well projectors - recessed ones, no less, that must require a large amount of space inside the hull - onto such a tight-packed hull and somehow still manage to fit a reasonable fighter and weapons loadout onto it. Remember that Mon Mothma and her sister ships are seen functioning as heavy line warships, not support craft with a restricted combat capability. An ISD hull is about the only stock Star Destroyer out there capable of supporting that kind of added capacity.

 

Which adds support to the idea that they were not.

You've lost me on the logic...

Because this is yet another case of you not using any.

The Dominator class clearly shows that the Imperator design lacks the space to hold a gravity well system, hence it's external mounting. The defining feature of these ships is that the gravity well system is completely internal.

Further Luke didn't recognize them. The book specifically says "two star destroyers Luke didn't recognize". Luke saw Nebula class SDs in the black fleet in sufficient detail to pull off the stunt at the battle. He has crashed Imperator varients into planets, battled Victorys on numerous occassions, and as the executor of Palpatine's forces, commanded Tectors (which appear to make up the bulk of the imperial destroyers, reconciling the required number with the published 25K), and the Venator lacks the volume to hold a gravity well system. This leaves only the Republic class.

But of course to you, it makes perfect sense that despite all this, they are Imperators. 9_9

 

SBS: Bilbringi had two Impstars and 500 small ships. Corvettes were mentioned, brought to mind an easy repaste for Vong appetitites.

TUF just suddenly mentions a Rejuvenator-class Star Destroyer. So either youc an say the italics was a typo, which is good, or you can say it's a new SD class---yet ANOTHER one.

Or you can make it the Interdictor-Star Destroyer one.

 

Daniel-K posted on 5/1/05 4:42pm

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[b][i]Which adds support to the idea that they were not. [/i]

You've lost me on the logic... [/b]

Because this is yet another case of you not using any.

The Dominator class clearly shows that the Imperator design lacks the space to hold a gravity well system, hence it's external mounting. The defining feature of these ships is that the gravity well system is completely internal.

[i]Further[/i] Luke didn't recognize them. The book specifically says "two star destroyers Luke didn't recognize". Luke saw Nebula class SDs in the black fleet in sufficient detail to pull off the stunt at the battle. He has crashed Imperator varients into planets, battled Victorys on numerous occassions, and as the executor of Palpatine's forces, commanded Tectors (which appear to make up the bulk of the imperial destroyers, reconciling the required number with the published 25K), and the Venator lacks the volume to hold a gravity well system. This leaves only the Republic class.

But of course to you, it makes [i]perfect[/i] sense that despite all this, they are Imperators. 9_9
[hr][/blockquote]

Uh, do you realize that Luke was looking at his tactical display and not out of his viewport? On the tactical display, AFAIK, all ships are simply blips on the screen. Because the [i]Mon Mothma[/i] and [i]Elegos A'kla[/i] were new, he didn't recognize their names.

SbS hardcover page 286
[blockquote]Though this voice was also familiar, Luke did not recognize it until R2-D2 ran a scan analysis and identified it as that of General Garm Bel Iblis. Luke switched to his tactical display to local space and saw a pair of unfamiliar Star Destroyers-- the transponder identified them as the [i]Mon Mothma[/i] and the [i]Elegos A'Kla[/i]-- moving into position behind his fleet.[/blockquote]

 

Remeber what we've seen of starfighter tactical displays? You see the ships themselves on the screen. And even if we want to ignore what we've seen in the games and movies there, you still have the much more important first point about internal volume.

And since there was a Rejuvinator in Thrawn's strike force, Rejuvinator class is probably the name for the Imperator 3 subtype.

 

You mean the TIE's/X-Wing's display in ANH? That's the only one I remember-- sorry if there are more. That only shows shape, and the triangle shape doesn't really give away the class.

 

The targeting computer in ANH was very detailed, as was Vader's target lock. In the X-wing games a host of data about the target was included on the screens. In TPM you could see detail on individual droids. In AOTC there were very detailed shots of fighters and anything in the vicinity (eg asteroids). Plenty of info for luke to go off of.

And again, that's a secondary backup point to identify the ships. The Dominator clearly rules out a base Imperator hull.

 

I thought you Fleet Junkie types hated the way space combat is portrayed in the X-Wing games.

 

Er.. I seem to also recall a Rejuvenator in Vector Prime. So how does this relate to the Rejuvenator seen in Thrawn's forces? I thought I remember reading somewhere in Star By Star that the design for the grav well generators were somewhat new?

Weren't the Republic class described as smaller versions of the ISDI? Won't that mean they are way more compact that the ISDI?

 

The trick with the Dominator-class interdictor Star Destroyer vs. the Mon Monthma/Elegos A'kla/Bail Organa is that a Dominator has gargantuan grav wells compared to those on an Immobilizer 418 or similar interdictor (what were those Republic interdictors? CC-7700's?). If one remodeled some of the consumables space in the forward hull on into the hanger areas in the forward/middle of the ship's hullspace, one could concievably install a smaller gravity well generator. One could also delete some of the long-term storeage spaces or ground forces/vehciles storeage in order to make room.

That all said, similar things could be done with a Republic-class hullform in theory as well. Unfortunately, we don't know much about the RSD, though, and--if memory serves--they have less space dedicated to consumables/raw materials, fighters, crew, and ground forces space, so presumably one would have to install smaller gravity wells (such as those off of one of the CC-7700's mentioned previously?)

 

hm, i know 2 none star destroyers with gravity wells was the Correllian Corvette.. Night Runner?... something like that in X-Wing, and *Pulsar Station or something like that, also X-Wing.

*Was never actually produced, it was just plans used by Isard in a trick

 

Ahh, I remember discussing this at the time...

"Unfamiliar" doesn't necessarily mean an unfamiliar design - simply that Luke doesn't know the names of these two ships.

Alternatively, as I argued at the time, it's possible that, the hullform of these ships has been modified to accomodate grav-well generators inside the vee - they could be structurally ImpStar variants while visually distinct - that, indeed, was my original mental image of them, with the bridge-tower and main hangar in the right places, but with a more sharply flared hull...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

The Eclipse were definately the largest in terms of tonnage, though the Executor was slightly longer than the Eclipse.

Are you sure about that? Eclipse measures 17,500 meters. The largest measurements I've seen for Executor is 12,800 meters. And the Sovereign-class was to be 15,000 meters. Last I checked, both 17,500 meters and 15,000 meters were greater sizes than 12,800 meters.

 

Knight1192 posted on 5/1/05 9:08pm

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The Eclipse were definately the largest in terms of tonnage, though the Executor was slightly longer than the Eclipse.

Are you sure about that? Eclipse measures 17,500 meters. The largest measurements I've seen for Executor is 12,800 meters. And the [i]Sovereign[/i]-class was to be 15,000 meters. Last I checked, both 17,500 meters and 15,000 meters were greater sizes than 12,800 meters.
[hr][/blockquote]

1) Look on the screen, measure it.
2) Buy ITW:OT if you need to read text.
3) I understand that there is even one novel out there that has started using the correct number. I understand they made it 19,000m, which is reasonably fitting with the screen. Over and out.

 

I still think 17.6km is a more reasonable lenght.

What's the smallest size for an effective gravity well (something on the scale of those Battle Dragon mines?)

 

"Unfamiliar" doesn't necessarily mean an unfamiliar design - simply that Luke doesn't know the names of these two ships.
They have a fleet in the millions. He obviously won't know every name. Clearly then he did not recognize the type.

Alternatively, as I argued at the time, it's possible that, the hullform of these ships has been modified to accomodate grav-well generators inside the vee - they could be structurally ImpStar variants while visually distinct - that, indeed, was my original mental image of them, with the bridge-tower and main hangar in the right places, but with a more sharply flared hull...
Except that would give away that they are different. And the point was that nobody knew they were or that they had that ace up their sleeve.

In otherwords, you are forcibly ignoring the obvious so that your pet theory works. AGAIN.

 

Dan-K: They have a fleet in the millions. He obviously won't know every name. Clearly then he did not recognize the type.

But how many Star Destroyers do they have? Probably not more than one or two hundred with NR pennons, at most... Luke could easily know all their names...

Aditionally, I don't thinkj your argument that they have to be RepStars stands up: as I understand it, this is based on the fact that they're the only known class that Luke hasn't been explicitly shown in close proximity to; but that's no safe basis for such an extrapolation - if they really are an "unfamiliar" design, that's far more likely to mean they're a new design...

They could be RepStars, sure, but that's only one of several possible interpretations...

Except that would give away that they are different. And the point was that nobody knew they were or that they had that ace up their sleeve.

No-one knows they have grav-well generators; that's not quite the same thing as saying that they make use of an old hullform...

There's a paradox at the heart of your argument here: you're trying to simultaneously say they're a familiar design, and that they're not...

If you insist on a 'familiar' design specifically 'unfamiliar' to Luke, you could equally argue that they're Dominator-class ships with visible sensor-globes, since they were rare enough that Luke may never have seen any...

In otherwords, you are forcibly ignoring the obvious so that your pet theory works. AGAIN.

Not at all: I'm stating what I think is the most likely interpretation; you're allowed to disagree...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Bah. There are so many Interdictor variants running around, I can't keep track of them. Every new sourcebook and game seems to make up a new version. I remember 1-bulb and 2-bulb interdictors in the RPG and comics; 3-bulbed variants in the X-wing/TIE games; and the common 4-bulbed version seen in most sources nowdays. And even the 4-bulbed kind had a number of variants, usually dealing with the propulsion system (1 engine, 2 engines, 3 engines, even 5 engines IIRC) And then there are the Dominator-class ships seen in number of comics. One of the early X-wing games (X-wing or TIE Fighter, I can't remember which) gave the I-418 another alternate designation in its databank that could also be another variant. Its one big mess, especially for Fleet Junkies in hyperspace...

I also seem to remember a Strike Cruiser with grav-well projectors in X-wing vs. TIE Fighter.

 

Yeah, that was the Rebel strike cruiser Peregrine. It was a higly modified Strike Cruiser that was fitted with gravity wells from a captured Interdictor cruiser. It was used in the Ariam sector during a campaign between the Rebellion and the Empire that took place during the year between Hoth and Endor.

--Adm. Nick

 

This ship Peregrine was one ugly bird. The thing about the X-Wing/TIE fighter games is that they did not fully translate the design of the Interdictor into polygons.

 

But how many Star Destroyers do they have? Probably not more than one or two hundred with NR pennons, at most... Luke could easily know all their names...
Are you retarded? Millions of ships means in the hundreds of thousands of star destroyers.

Aditionally, I don't thinkj your argument that they have to be RepStars stands up: as I understand it, this is based on the fact that they're the only known class that Luke hasn't been explicitly shown in close proximity to; but that's no safe basis for such an extrapolation - if they really are an "unfamiliar" design, that's far more likely to mean they're a new design...
And of course you have evidence that they are building a new kind of ship that you will present now, correct?


They could be RepStars, sure, but that's only one of several possible interpretations...
Yes, except other interpratations require you to ignore the facts. Republic class or a new class are the only explanations that fit, and there is no evidence that they were building a new class.

No-one knows they have grav-well generators; that's not quite the same thing as saying that they make use of an old hullform...
Right, because if you see that a ship is clearly different from the norm, you won't do a sensor focus and see what is different.

There's a paradox at the heart of your argument here: you're trying to simultaneously say they're a familiar design, and that they're not...
No, I'm not. I'm saying they are a known design, but Luke, lacking all the extra information we have, does not know of them.



If you insist on a 'familiar' design specifically 'unfamiliar' to Luke, you could equally argue that they're Dominator-class ships with visible sensor-globes, since they were rare enough that Luke may never have seen any...
He fought them against Thrawn.

Not at all: I'm stating what I think is the most likely interpretation; you're allowed to disagree...
Would I be right in believing that you think magic faries is the most likely interpration for gravity as well?

And moight I add that this "well you are allowed to disagree" is the most cowardly thing I see you pull. It'
s you running away but at the same time phrasing it to make it sound like you are still right. Of course, you get hammered by the facts, showing you aren't, but that doesn't stop you.

 

The Republic Star Destroyer will be one hell of an stripped down ship and others if they fitted Gravity Well projectors into it... That ship is already a compact ship at 1200m long and with the Firepower of at least an ISDI... We know not the dimensions of that particular design of Grav well projectors (That trecherous Senator supposedly transmitted the schematics of the new design if I recall) and that ship will be really crammed...

I guess it's possible if you remove even the small bit of troop carrying capabilities and throw away some weaponry or consolidate the weaponry into fewer batteries and at the same time upgrade the firepower to make up for the fewer batteries. The ship reputedly has fast reaction batteries... so I have no idea how compact the ship is after this radical upgrade.

 

I don't think we've ever seen a real pic of that ship either - The one in CTD looked like a mon cal cruiser, so I think there was a picture screwup like in the original run of the old EGVV.

So depending on a number of factors, it might not be a problem. Lack of info about the ship means it need not necessarily be cramped. Internal or external engines? Higher or lower reactor power density? A lot of stuff we don't know about the thing.

 

Dan:

Are you retarded? Millions of ships means in the hundreds of thousands of star destroyers.

When's it ever stated explicitly that the Republic built, captured, or otherwise obtained that many Star Destroyers?


The Republic favored Star Cruisers over destroyers, remember.

And of course you have evidence that they are building a new kind of ship that you will present now, correct?

He could be referring to the Rejuvenator-class, Dan.

Yes, except other interpratations require you to ignore the facts. Republic class or a new class are the only explanations that fit, and there is no evidence that they were building a new class.

Or a class sufficiently modified so as to be less imediately recognizable, right?

Right, because if you see that a ship is clearly different from the norm, you won't do a sensor focus and see what is different.

What? And gravity wells springing forth won't tell the tale just as quickly? If absolutely nothing else, the whole idea isn't going to stay a 'secret' for long. Speaking of which, do we actually know that the grav wells are supposed to be a secret? I don't recall that from the books. In all fairness, it's been quite some time since I read them...

No, I'm not. I'm saying they are a known design, but Luke, lacking all the extra information we have, does not know of them.

Fair enough. Sounds reasonable to me.

He fought them against Thrawn.

When? Luke wasn't at Bilbringi, and the interdictor that nearly let the Chimaera have her way with him was an Immobilizer 418.

Would I be right in believing that you think magic faries is the most likely interpration for gravity as well?

Come on, Dan.

And moight I add that this "well you are allowed to disagree" is the most cowardly thing I see you pull. It'
s you running away but at the same time phrasing it to make it sound like you are still right. Of course, you get hammered by the facts, showing you aren't, but that doesn't stop you.

You've got to be kidding. Dude, agreeing to disagree is more or less when two people say, 'yeah, it's not worth fighting for because neither of us are going to change the other guy's mind'. Yeah. The very definition of cowardice. Interpreting the available data differently is all well and good, but sometimes it sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder, mate.
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