Who is more twisted, Darth Vader or Darth Caedus?

I think it is Caedus.

Anakin fell to save the life of the woman he loved. He was raised by his mother, born into slavery, and first touched the dark side when his mother was found brutally tortured and dying in his arms. He was being played by Palpatine and the Jedi Council in a power struggle over the Republic, and during the closure of the first galactic-scale war in 1000 years. He had been twisted and corrupted by Palpatine for 13 years, unknowingly. He is unintentionally the cause of Padme's death, who died of a broken heart and loss of will because of her husband's fall for her. He has nothing left but his new master, and stays with him, trying to bring peace and order to the galaxy. After discovering his son is alive, when Luke's life is in danger Anakin sacrifices his own life to destroy the Emperor and save his son.

Jacen fell because he was unsatisfied and bored with the Jedi way. He was the son of heroes, and his mother went on to become leader of the galaxy when he was growing up. He was trained as a Jedi by Luke Skywalker. Lumiya offered him more knowledge, which could be useful if there was ever another large-scale war, which there wasn't at the time. Jacen believes pain brings power, probably shaped by his torture under Vergere and the Yuuzhan Vong. Feeling the death of his heroic younger brother, and witnessing the savage intergalactic invasion, helped shape his views. At first, he had refused to fight against the invaders. Jacen had reached a Force epiphany at the end of the invasion, and although he knew he would never regain that state, spent 5 years tryiing to gain more knowledge and power to do so. Though he had been trained all his life to resist the dark side and the ways of the Sith, he still listened to Lumiya and allowed himself to be persuaded by her because of a well-reasoned argument. He saw himself killing Luke in a vision, and based on those visions, thought killing a fellow Jedi Knight and friend would prevent that. He quickly turned against his family and loved ones, and began intentionally hunting them down. He wondered which loved one he would have to sacrifice for more power, and ended up intentionally killing his Aunt Mara. He has repeatedly tried to kill his parents and Luke, and has tortured his younger cousin. Even Tenel Ka, who he claims he is making the galaxy safer for her and their daughter Allana, is now a target of his fury if she ever stands in his way. Allana remains his only link to goodness, but he could be unstable enough to even turn against his six-year-old daughter.

Darth Caedus has... less reasons to fall, has less excuses for his fall, has fallen much deeper into darkness and madness, and has a smaller chance of coming back... than Darth Vader.

 

I have to say Caedus as well. Vader was manipulated for years, carefully crafted to fall into the place of Palpatine's apprentice. Caedus, on the other hand, has been back and forth of his own free will and I find myself seriously questioning his sanity at times, which I suspect is degrading as the series goes on, possibly resulting in a literally mind-blowing ending for the series.

 

JINO by a light-year. Anakin... you felt some sympathy for him. JINO? Nope.

 

Jacen's scalp is going to look great stuffed and mounted on his sister's wall. Nuff said.

 

The wall? I was thinking more along the lines of hanging off of one shoulderpad. It's more visible that way, something to let everyone know what happens to insane, power-hungry tyrants when they go over to the Dark Side.

 

Jacen, by far, is more twisted.

 

I'll agree that Darth Caedus is more twisted, but not in the way that the rest of you think.

I think he has more reason to have fallen than Anakin Skywalker did.

Jacen was born into a time of troubled peace, to the greatest heroes of thier and now his generation. He was trained as the apprentice of the greatest Jedi Master of the time. He was constantly in danger growing up, but once he became a Jedi, he felt something was missing. ( Go read the beginning of the NJO again, he was desperately searching in Stackpole's duology for meaning.) He watches his younger brother accept the basic philosophy that they've been told and begins to shine as a hero... and then die uselessly. He's immediately captured. In Traitor at the beginning, he is holding on to his sanity by use of the Force only, and then that is taken away from him and he suffers, until Vergere tries to get him to grow up, which he begins to do. Then, as a continuation of her "training", she begins to show him that EVERYTHING his life was based on was wrong. (whether or not it is/was I'm not going to debate here) He tries not to believe her, but the evidence shows to the contrary. He cautiously accepts it and finds that it's basically true, as also demonstrated to him at the end of TUF, where the disembodied voice of Anakin Skywalker tells him to "stand firm" balanced between the Light and the Dark, and he reaches a level in the Force that no one else alive has ever reached... he PHYSICALLY changed in that moment, he was so intune with the Force that his physical body was altered. So, at this point, right or wrong, his life was twisted on its head, and even the Force itself seems to reinforce his belief. He searches for more ways to stand balanced, to learn the Light and the Dark. As he travels, he gains the ability to alter time itself, which, in the first book of the DNT, he (as Luke, Leia, and Mara believe) pre-destined a moment for Leia, and it scares them all. Except Han. On to Betrayal, I don't know about any of you, but I can't see the future, I don't have the ability to look through multiple time-lines at once, which apparently Jacen could. The section where he determines that Nelani has to die, he's not looking at 1 or 2 seperate incidents, he's looking at multiple seperate timelines. He's looking at all that "motion" that is in the future that stems from his current event, and in all of those events, the ONLY one that doesn't end in Luke's death at his hands is if Nelani dies. Also - there WAS a war about to start, the threat of a civil war was brewing before he killed her, there was already a split and the Prime Minister of the Corellian system was brutally murdered. Events had already been put into place when he chose his path. (Unless you put the beginning of his fall in the DNT trilogy)
To me, his fall is perfectly justified and rational.

Anakin was born a slave, true, he first touched the Dark Side when his mother died in his arms, Yes, but before all of that, he was greatly egotistical. "Obi-Wan is holding me back, he's jealous of me, jealous of my power," AotC. He wanted recognition and power, due to his humble beginnings, that was what Palpatine used on him. Yes he wanted to save Padme and keep her from dying, but he wanted the Power to do so himself, he couldn't trust in the Force and let it's will take control, He wanted to come to the place where he controlled the Force. He reached and craved more power, and THAT is why he fell, his pure unadulterated lust for power. If he'd have listened to Padme on Mustafar, and truley loved her like he thought he did, he would have realized how badly he was messing everything up, but he was couldn't see it, blinded by power and the thought of His New Empire.

 

Caedus is far more twisted. Vader has some humanity to him and it makes reading about him very interesting( his segments in Shadows of the Empire were terrific). Caedus however doesn't really have much humanity in him. He spends most of the time trying to come up with an excuse to kill you.

If you ever watch the movie, No Country For Old Men, you will see this evil character Chigurh and that's pretty much what Caedus is like. A man who loves to kill and will find some way to kill you

 

Y'know she would probably do this too.

[image=http://fuse.superglue.se/pwned.jpg]

 

Caedus's logic - while I admit it IS some form of logic - is far more whacky and twisted than anything Palps ever fed to Vader. Vader, to some extent I think, knew he was choosing to be a villain, choosing to put his desires above his duty, but he was willing to do it because he was so desperate to protect Padme/be in control/etc. Caedus is just plain out to lunch, thinking that he can somehow save the galaxy by destroying it, follow the proper moral path by selling his soul, avoiding killing Luke by killing Mara, etc etc. He actually thinks he's doing the right thing.

 

Becoming a Sith because of your upbringing and your passions is one thing.

But becoming a Sith because of your logic and thinking it's the right thing to do after having a pretty decent upbringing... yeah, not so much.

 

And yet killing Luke is what he's been trying to do since Tempest ended. This clearly shows Cadeus is more unbalanced. Vader never intentionally tried to kill Padme. Darth Stupid on the other hand has already made his sacrafice but thats not enough for him.

 

Exactly!


To answer the question: Caedus is more twisted, and not half as cool.

 

Caedus is definitely more twisted than Vader ever was. Vader did Force choke Padme, but he did love her. Anakin fell for her sake. That fall broke Padme's heart and she lost the will to live, but still, Vader was thinking of her. The first thing Vader asked after they finished operating on him was about Padme. And Anakin did have a temper, so it was never quite a meditated, logical decision. Not to mention that one of Anakin's father figures had been quietly grooming him to be the next Sith apprentice for well over a decade. And even after Vader fell, he hated himself for the rest of his life probably.

Caedus on the other hand was barely with Lumiya for a few days and that was enough time to convince him to fail. Not to mention that originally he was trying to avoid killing Luke but now he's been gunning for Luke for a while. The only thing holding Caedus was what legal excuse to come up with for trying to kill Luke Skywalker. That and Luke is still a bit too much for Caedus to handle at the moment.

So yeah, Caedus is more twisted. Both falls are tragedies, but Vader is more the sad tragedy- Caedus' fall would be tragic comedy if it weren't for the fact that Mara was dead.

 

There is a reason Darth Caedus is a complete sociopath. Jacen was a nice yet thoroughly boring chap until he became a prisoner of war, there he was tortured & manipulated relentlessly at a time when mentally he was in pieces (following the death of his younger brother). Just like in many real life cases he returned with more then a few deep-seated issues. War changes people.

Anakins fall is all down to the jedi orders failings & Palpatines manipulation.

 

Going by Bloodlines and Tempest . . . Jonash's grandson was an utter joke of credibility.

It was almost as if I was reading "Oh, okay, you have every reason to hate my uncle's guts, but yeah I believe you, Lumie." Jacen achieving a high state of Forceness that light bursted from his body leading to his current epoch of self-assureness, that I can believe. But a gullible Jacen is another thing.

And another Addam Family Thing is the showing of it. Jacen just says he doesn't want to make his sacrificial choice on the sporadic occasion . . . but that's it. You don't see him sweating over it, really devling into an emotional state. Unless I'm wrong, misremembering what I read, it's superificial to the farcial.

But that's okay. The entire storyline of Legacy is pretty much superficial. This series is nothing deep. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Fett roughing Solo, and his daughter kneed Ford in the face, which was great, but the Corellian politicians have the density of grams. You know nothing about them; get to know nothing about them. Why should I care? Tempest had a some good moments, but again, the political tension is the primary backdrop, and it has a glossy feel to it.

 

I think in the end Vader will win this out...but it's hard to challenge Jacen at present.

but considering the Sithly timespans...2 years to about 20...I'd say Vader's tales will eventually twist him up more. Jacen's actions are just more vicious because much of it has been orchestrated against species and worlds and characters we are very familiar with.

Jacen is the vicious razor.

Vader is the firestorm.

 

Talk about over simplification. I think he is extremely twisted, perhaps moreso than Vader now, and that he has lately been hadnled extremely poorly by the authors, but he didn't fall because he was unsatisfied and bored.

His falling mirror's Vaders. He was plagued by vissions of war and tragedy he felt he had to stop, whereas Vader was just plagued by images of his ife dying. From that stanpoint, Jacen's falling makes a great deal of sense if he thinks he is doing it to save and bring peace to the galaxy. He was "too selfless" remember? Not a bored child looking for a little excitement in life.

 

What people are saying, I think, is the stunning speed he's made such a religion makeover, and the breezy feather weight it's being showed as.

 

I continue to dislike the use of the term "fall" used in the context of Anakin and Jacen. They didn't "fall", because they knew what they were doing. They "turned".

Fall = Accidental. "Whoops, didn't realise I'd joined the dark side."
Turn = Deliberate. "I want to embrace the dark side, so I'm going to."

Equating "fall" exactly with "turn" is why we have people talking nonsense about Kreia saying "Revan never joined the dark side", when she said no such thing.

I'd like to think you're right, but when we've got stuff where Vader (after Yavin!) travels to another end of the galaxy to give his weakling apprentice a proper burial as canon. Well....

Still, we haven't seen much Dark Times Vader pre-Dark Lord. Dark Times itself (the comic) has only just caught up with the beginning of Dark Lord... and it's at the end of DL when he morphs into big badass evil Vader who revels in "everything he's done to bring balance to the Force".

 

For Jacen's Bothans and Wookie atrocities...

You have Vaders' Falleen and Noghri exterminations...they are at least on par right now, just based on Vader as he is...so anything going forward will just be bonus.

and I truly hope and pray that the "sympathetic" Vader is dead...nobody liked Anakin Skywalker...why would we want to feel sorry for him as Vader?

 

There seems to be an increasing tendency in EU lately to portray Vader as a rather pathetic figure, who pretty soon did lose his appetite for the whole Dark Side business, but couldn't find a way out. Caedus at least still believes in what he does. Vader just thought that he didn't have any other choice. So... I can't really decide so who is the worst of them. The true believer who commits atrocities for a cause he believes in, or the guy who just commits atrocities because he thinks that he has to, even when he wants to kill the man, the Emperor, who these atrocities benefit?

 

Vader's only remaining glimmer of evil is his ambition...yes he wants to kill the Emperor...and take over!

That is the only thing left the separates Vader for 20 years, and the Vader who tosses Palps down the shaft...for 20 years he dreams of killing Palps and taking his place...his redemption comes when he kills Palps for a reason other then his own ambition.

 

Which is incredibly frustrating.

Vader should regret only having been defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Other than that, he should think he made the right choices and be totally in love with the power of the dark side. Until he meets Luke.

Luke should be the only person to have ever stirred the remnants of Anakin Skywalker within him and the only person who ever made him think, "Actually, I kind of wish I hadn't made the choices I did...."

And, finally, I'll get to the topic itself.

Though I believe that Caedus' reasons for turning to the dark side were less sympathetic than Vader's, I think he and his grandfather are more-or-less at the same level of "twistedness". It'll ultimately depend on whether Caedus can be redeemed or not.

 

So Jacen wins "twisted" if he has to be put down like a dog that bites a mailman?

The improbable redemption of Vader in spite of his wickedness is what makes it so dramatic...people far LESS twisted and evil FAILED to be redeemed.

How can this be a factor?