Who really changed the future, Jacen or Abeloth?

she is just.... a tv trope plot device, nothing else

 

I disagree here... Palpatine was not aware of her at all. especially since only Tarkin knew of the Maw Installation and not even Palpatine knew where it was, which is why Daala got no support or rescue post-Tarkins death until JAT.

 

PS: The first occurence of the Dark Man vision was in Tatooine Ghost by Leia who saw a "Mine Mine" vision relating to Luke and forshadowing his Dark Empire turn to the Dark Side. And to the attempted turn of Luke to the dark side by Joruus C'boath in the Thrawn trilogy. Also maybe to Luuke, the Luke clone.

then we had the NJO's allusions... Dark Nest, LOTF and FOTJ


so many events might be tied back to Palpatine, but not all as pointed out earlier. But it started as early as Tatooine Ghost with these visions. And one might add even before that Shadows of Mindor where Cronal tried to get Luke turned already and similiar "The Dark" and Dark Man stuff came into play.


so the longterm plan may be:

Palpatine found the suited Vader flawed and wanted to replace him with Luke in ROTJ... but it failed
Palpatines agents Cronal, C'boath, etc. tried to turn Luke until Palpatines return managed to sway him to the Dark Side in Dark Empire finally! But Luke got rescued by his twin sister!

Then independent from Palpatine, after his final defeat, the ancient Sith spirits returned: Exar Kun in JAT, Marka Ragnos in Katarn games, etc. all put down by Luke and his pupils.

Even Luke himself feels the danger of falling again to the dark and easy side after Dark Empire which is why he limits his Force use and powers voluntarily not using the full extent as per his own thoughts in the Yevetha trilogy.

Even in the Vong War Luke tries to keep himself limited and sees others fall or close to. Luke could not have won the war without falling to the Dark Side, which he told Jacen even. Jacen learned things beyond Luke's understandings of the Force and found a way to bring peace without genocide. Lessons Luke would not have learned given his experiences.

Jacen then continued to expand his knowledge and have a lasting impact on Force using cultures, an apprentice and teacher both to all of them.

In Dark Nest though, Luke again was closer to the Dark Side and Jacen had to save him and prevent the Swarm War. Still only Jacen fully grasped the lessons of Vergere (even if authors twisted them a bit still not getting Stovers great book right *sigh* like Jacen being not light but light and dark both, harmonic balanced which to Jedi looks darker and to Sith looks lighter, etc.)

In LOTF once more Jacen saw a Dark Man vision... and most likely it related to Luke again like all previous occasions where Jacen had to save Luke from the dark future again one last time by bringing the greatest sacrifice of all to bear... his future, his life, his love.

Selfless Jacen did that.

He saved Luke from becoming the Dark Man again. But like Leia saved him in Dark Empire, the danger did not end with Palpatine, or with the sith spirits, or with Jacen's sacrifice. The future was saved over and over again. And Abeloth is just the last part of a long chain trying to turn Luke into the Dark Man.

But this time, Luke and Ben both learned through Jacen's sacrifice a lesson that will prevent their fall. They learned to ally with Sith if needed, despite not trusting them, they learned to not go killcrazy but investigate and analyse first. And they learned to no longer linger near the danger to go dark. Luke will never ever fall again after Jacen's sacrifice and Abeloth will be the ultimate test showing that this is true. Jacen broke the chain and brought it to an end.



so essentially it started with Palpatine setting off a chain of events to turn Luke... that ultimately failed with each try until Jacen cut off the chain to have it no longer continue.


Sith couldn't turn him, neither living nor dead, nor shall the mightiest entity in the entire galaxy (aside from Mnggal-Mnggal ) be able to now!

 

This was the original belief of Daala in the JAT, but I'm fairly certain this has been retconned elsewhere. I'll look for a source.


Just found it. Apparently, according to Daala's Wookieepedia Talk page, the source is Death Star: Daala was under the impression Palpatine was unaware of the Maw Installation's existence and location, but Tarkin himself knows better.

 

thx for the confirmation. It would be more logic for Palpatine to know, but wasn't Daala's belief the explanation for why nobody visited the Maw Installation after Bevel Lemelisk left it post-Tarkin death to talk with Palpatine about Death Star 2 and took with him the plans for the World Devastators and Galaxy Gun?

now then we need a new explanation as to why neither reborn Emperor, nor original Emperor between ANH and ROTJ ever used/visited or sent people to/from the Maw installation. weird

 

CeiranHarmony : Palpatines agents Cronal, C'boath, etc. tried to turn Luke until Palpatines return managed to sway him to the Dark Side in Dark Empire finally! But Luke got rescued by his twin sister!

As per Leeland Chee, Luke didn't fall to the dark side in DE. He *nearly* fell.

As for Jacen constantly saving Luke from falling to the dark side, I disagree. If anything, Jacen might have been the cause if Luke had fallen to to the dark side by attempting to turn Ben into a Sith and killing Mara and by Jacen going dark. Plus, it was Jacen who encouraged Luke to use dark emotions to make himself powerful to face Lomi Plo and Raynor. Luke and Mara were both repulsed and disturbed by that idea.

 

My issue with this dark man vision all being tied back to Luke for basically every major event is that if a Jedi keeps winning his personal battle with the dark side, that should end it for that particular vision.
For example, Luke in LotF timeframe shouldn?t still be concerned with a vision someone had supposedly about him falling to the dark side 20-30 years ago when he overcame that particular trial successfully.

This maybe speaks to the way things are written, but this vague, tying everything back to any single line from a book without ever confirming anything just seems lazy in my opinion and I wish the authors (Denning in particular I guess is the one obsessed with it) would stop it and just write a story.

How many times must a Jedi not turn to the dark side for a vision to be done with?

Who did Jacen have a lasting impact on? The Fallanassi didn?t seem to think too highly of him based on Akannah?s dialogue with him. I guess the Aing Ti monks thought positively of him, but did he really teach them anything?

Unfortunately it seems Jacen wasn?t with any of these cultures long enough to teach them anything, which is a shame. I wish he would have actually ended up destroying most of them, if we had to be force fed Jacen falling to the dark side the way we were. Again though, I tire of the wishy-washy way things have been written, villains especially.

I think COW had this right, Jacen tried to push Luke towards the dark side, and then Luke showed him that he did not have to use his dark emotions to draw the power necessary to defeat Raynar.

I hope if this is what they are going for, that we actually get it definitively in the story and not have everything left

 

from the troy denning interview that was on facebook here are some things people should note

Q: Is there a specific period in time from the EU that you would prefer to write?

TD: I think I tend to prefer the Legacy period (where LotF is now), because I really enjoy working with the classic characters and carrying their story forward.

Q: Will the Daala storyline wrap-up before book 9 or will you have to deal with that and the conflict with the Sith? (It?s hard to ask a good question when there are two more books before your next one in the series.)

TD: I don?t want to talk too much about what happens with Daala in the rest of the series ? but rest assured, there will be surprises! Very big surprises!



Q: So, is Abeloth a continuation of the ?White Eyes? prophecy and if so was this an idea you had to utilize that particular idea/theme in the series? Thanks!

TD: I?m going to plead ?spoiler? on the Abeloth/White Eyes question; suffice it to say that there?s a connection, and that it will probably grow at least a little bit clearer by the end of the series.

Q: When are Leia and Jaina going to become masters?

TD: I?m not sure I can comment on Leia and Jaina becoming Masters ? the only thing you CAN be sure of is that if it were going to happen, I wouldn?t be able to comment on it!

Q: Out of curiousity, are we going to see the Yuuzhan Vong in this series? We see the echoes and after affects of that war, but not the Vong themselves.

TD: I don?t know that we?re going to do anything more with the YV yet. I think that?s worthy of a book (or two) on its own right.

 

Sounds like a good interview, thanks for sharing those parts samuraix

I am mildly curious as to what else will happen with Daala, though I have a feeling there may not be enough of the series left for it to fully be developed and it may take away from the main story page time. I hope they both aren?t crammed in


If the current story is what the whole ?white eyes? stuff was, which I guess originated back in Survivors Quest, it?s nice to finally have it told to us. It was getting old for every book basically claiming to be a part of the white eyes vision with Luke about to go dark. It seems to fit with Abeloth, since don?t those absorbed by her have white eyes? Here?s hoping that doesn?t mean Luke gets absorbed. Or that they don?t pull a Matrix ending with Luke allowing himself to be absorbed to somehow destroy Abeloth that way.


I see no real reason for Leia to become a Master ever at this point, unless her and Han stop raising Allana. She clearly made her choice there, to be with family over the Jedi. Not that I see anything wrong with that, since she was always a special case as a Jedi, I think it would almost detract from her character to have her just be a full time Jedi. Jaina, I wish would be given an apprentice, to let her become a Master, rather than they just decide, oh Jaina should be a master because she has lived this long and wont shutup about being the sword of the Jedi.



I would love a YV story, maybe a trilogy about Kol and his workings with the Vong and the Wayland project.

 

What ever happed to the dangerious, but competant opponent as an antagonist?

Prophecy and eldric criters, can get just as played out as sith. especiallyw hen they eventally act the same

Is "Take over the galaxy" really the only motivation for antagonists these days?

 

A Big Bad Eldritch Abomination Yandere Assimilation Plot. Valin and Jysella Go Mad From The Revelation. Taalon's The Dragon. This also means that yes, Luke romanced Cthulhu.

 

Unless its Haruhi Suzumyia, romace and chthulu should never go togther.