PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

I was rereading through this thread because I do really enjoy the debate surrounding the scene, and saw this post. This is, I believe, the correct answer. Darth Sidious is the best manipulator in Star Wars and the most powerful Sith Lord in both canons, but even he wouldn't want to be in THIS situation:





Anakin's not even in the scene yet, if Mace reaches out just a bit further Sidious is dead.

 

Whenever this comes up I like to contrast this to his duel against Yoda.
Yes, at the beginning, Sidious is visibly afraid thinking Yoda might beat him. But when they are in the Senate chamber, Sidious is clearly enjoying himself. He realizes that Yoda doesn’t pose a threat to his plans, even if Yoda had ended up outmatching Sidious in their duel (Yoda didn’t technically lose, but Sidious had the situational advantage). Even if Sidious had been killed by Yoda, he is confident enough that Vader will ensure the continued dominance of the Sith.
“Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!”

 

You can’t see Palpatine risking his life just to test Anakin??

He did it in the beginning when he staged his own kidnapping in the middle of a war. While he was about to crash down to his death. Thankfully Anakin was there to pilot the ship to safety. Hmmmm that sounds familiar.

If Mace would have pose a threat to Palpatine then he would have easily killed Palpatine when he had a 4-1 advantage but he couldn’t even land a single blow. Only when Anakin was about to enter that Palpatine became the harmless politician who never held a lightsaber in his life let alone obliterate 3 Jedi Council Masters in mere seconds.

What does Palpatine gain IF Anakin walks in on 4 dead Jedi???? Absolutely nothing. He will be back to square one in trying to convince Anakin on why he has to kill all his righteous Jedi Family and not arrest the Chancellor.

 

No, I can't. Darth Sidious valued his life above literally everything else - we see this when he attempts to run away from Yoda, and with his recounting of how he killed Darth Plagueis in his sleep, rather than in a straight fight. Also, look at the instance of him fighting Maul and Savage - he only went because he knew he was so far above them that he was in zero danger.

The kidnapping at the start of ROTS is not an example of him putting his life in danger. He was in total control of the situation - the Republic would never kill him since he was Chancellor, and the CIS would never kill him because Darth Tyranus knew his identity.

 

I think Windu won the fight. I think Palpatine would have acted abit different had anakin not shown up though and may have attempted to survive another way

 

He had more control with Mace compared to his kidnapping where there are multiple of factors that could go wrong.

Yeah of course the Separatists and the Republic were not trying to actively kill him. But the whole war around them is still happening which lead to his whole ship crashing.

Palpatine had to deal with an active war around him, dangers of space, and ship crashing. Unlike With Mace all he had to do is wait for Anakin to walk in knowing the Jedi will not kill an unarmed combatant.

 

I haven't been keeping up with this thread since page 45ish I think, but reading the last bit I find it interesting that both sides like to keep posting the same gif. It was my very first post in this thread too.

Wait, what do you mean?

 

I’ll take it a step further and say it’s pretty clear Yoda would have killed Sidious if the Clones weren’t on their way.

 

Because it would make Sidious into an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing and got everything he did by sheer luck.

The destruction of the DS was not dependent on those two things happening at the same time. Luke could've made the shot 10min before the DS got into position and it wouldn't change the overall plot. The coincidental timing is just an out-of-universe trick to add a little suspense; it does not make the in-universe victory lame.

It's one thing to impulsively cut off the arm of the person about to kill his only hope of saving his wife, it's a completely different thing lead thousands of soldiers into his home and massacre his entire family. Sidious was counting on a desperate Anakin to act rashly in the panic of the moment, an irreversible mistake that would turn him into a traitor of the Jedi Order, thus trapping him on the Sith camp.

Well I think he would first make an attempt to threaten/force Anakin into submission. It's possible he might not have to do too much, since he would have already displayed his full power Force Lightning when finishing off Mace on his own. If Anakin is resistant, he could try threatening to kill and/or torture Padme/the baby/Anakin himself.

If all fails, he would have to kill Anakin on the spot (likely in a slow painful way as punishment). Then there'd be 3 things he has to do:
1. Lock up Padme somewhere to ensure he gets his hands on the baby as his next apprentice, then probably kill her after the baby is born.
2. Put on a clone outfit (which conveniently covers the face) and lead the clones to the Temple himself.
3. Tell the senate that Anakin saved him (to explain how poor innocent Palpatine survived a Jedi assassination) but tragically died in the process (to explain Anakin's death).

 

The Clones were no where near that fight.

They arrived when Yoda was already running away and were only there to search for Yoda’s dead body.

Yoda gave it his all and he still fell while Sidious was laughing his arse off. Yoda left because he knows he can’t beat him not because of Clones.

That’s like saying the only reason Dooku left the Yoda duel was because the Clones were coming which of course they did.

It parallels Episode 2 exactly. Yoda made Dooku ran then in Episode 3 he ran from Sidious.

If Yoda could defeat Sidious then why wait and hide in Dagobah for decades??? It’s because he can’t beat him. That’s the whole reason for Luke. The son of the Chosen One. Only the Skywalker line can defeat Sidious. Yoda even told Qui-Gonn Jinn’s ghost that he’s not powerful enough to defeat Sidious.

 

I agree about when Sidious fights Jedi, he doesn't take any risks.

But Maul thing is different, because Sidious couldn't send Dooku and Grievous (we see what happened in Son of Dathomir, Maul captured them and could kill them if he wanted) and he couldn't send the Republic forces since Mandalore was neutral and Maul also had Crime Syndicates, even Jabba under his control, that was something Sidious needed to do by himself.

Maul equally duels with Kenobi in the Clone Wars, and even beat Kenobi in the Clone Wars from time to time, fought equally even with Mace Windu as well in the Son of Dathomir comic book, so there was always a small danger for Sidious as well.

But fighting dark siders is a different thing as well. Sidious was asking Rey to kill him by using dark side only so Rey could inherit Sidious's power and position. Thats how the Sith line continues. If Sidious lost to Maul, same thing would happen. Maul killing Sidious by using dark side means, Maul inheriting Sidious's position and his power, thus becoming stronger, Sidious might even partially control Maul if that happen, nothing would change, Maul would just replace as the new Sith master. So thats a completely different situation, losing to Maul would still continue the Sith line. But losing to Jedi is different, Sidious couldn't take any risks with that.

 

My point was that Sidious is in general extremely risk-averse. I do agree that he was the only one capable of getting the desired outcome on Mandalore achieved - I've seen people speculate about what would happen if he sent Darth Tyranus instead and my personal opinion is that Dooku is definitely capable of handling Savage easily, but Maul on his own would be a challenge for him. And both of them together? With Savage's increase in power to Jedi Council member level, there's no way Dooku is leaving that room alive.

But I also think that Sidious knew it would be a cakewalk for him. He was laughing like crazy the entire fight and in general looked like he was having the most fun of anyone in the series at that point. Neither Maul nor Savage held a candle to him, although the fact that Maul didn't die instantly in their 1v1 definitely boosts Maul's credibility. Sidious, Mace, and Yoda (and I suppose Mother Talzin as well) are just in their own tier at this point in the timeline.

Getting back on topic, you can see Sidious takes the fight with Mace extremely differently than the one he had with Maul and Savage. He's hissing and not laughing at all the whole fight and clearly concentrating hard once the window breaks, and even resorts to employing Force Scream, which really had no effect on Mace. These are all points that lend credence to George's statement, that Windu was the clear victor in the fight.

 

They were on their way though. We see them in the Senate pods about 60 seconds after Yoda leaves the battlefied.

Not true. Darth Sidious sent Mas Amedda to get them as soon as Yoda entered his office.

Yes, Sidious was laughing. Laughing because he knew Yoda would never get another chance at him due to his Clone security force.

That was part of the reason he left, but moreso you could tell Yoda outmatched him. Further, if he stayed he risked the undoing of the Grand Plan. He was too important to stay and risk himself in a fight.

That could be possible, I'll give you that one. Could see George doing something like that.

He hid on Dagobah for two reasons: 1) Sidious was too well protected. 2) He knew the best hope was not in himself, but in Luke and Leia. Together and trained at their full potential both Skywalker twins together could easily overpower Sidious. But he had to be alive to train them or it would not happen. He couldn't risk another fight.

 

@Darkslayer

Your 2 reasons of Yoda hiding in Dagobah is half right. Number 2 is correct. As for Sidious being well protected ….he’s not as protected compared to ROTS. That was at the height of Order 66 and Yoda still managed to sneak in to duel The Emperor. Yoda had decades to sneak back in when the war has died down. It could be even 3-10 years later when Sidious wasn’t worried anymore. It’s because he knows he can’t beat him and that’s it’s the destiny of the Chosen One and/or his offsprings that can do it.

As for Mas Amedda, that’s speculation…Sidious was never shown to give him orders to call in the Clones. Once Sidious KOed Yoda out cold it cut to the Skywalker vs Obiwan duel. We just saw Amedda walking away on the next scene while Yoda was still out cold. So maybe he did went to call The Clones so they can get rid of Yoda’s knocked out body OR he wanted to get his butt out there asap and not be in the crossfire between the 2 power houses.

As for the Clones coming 60 seconds later…it’s also speculation because right after Yoda fell and was looking at his cloak falling as well it was cut back to the Vader vs Kenobi duel. The next scene just cut back to Yoda already on the tunnel while The Clones was already coming back to Palpatine after looking for Yoda’s body. Could be 60 seconds or way longer. Maybe The Clones were on their way or maybe Sidious just called them right after he got back on the pod.

Could Yoda sense the Clones will come?? Sure…just like Palpatine can sense when Anakin was about to walk in.

In the scene, 4 Clones was shown. Can Yoda easily dispatch those 4 Clones in mere seconds and get back at Sidious since the fate of the galaxy was at stake and since he still has no knowledge of the twins???? Sure….since those Clones will just be a hindrance to Sidious like some believe here that those 3 Council Jedi Masters were a hindrance to Mace. Lol

 

Disagree about well protected, in RotS, many clone troopers are off Coruscant and Sidious has just made himself emperor. He has not had time to set up a whole security apparatus.
Later, when there is not open war and he has had time to create a system that will protect him, then he will be harder to get to.

If it was easy to get to Sidious, do you not think that some rebels would have tried a suicide mission to take him out?

At that point in RotS, Order 66 had just been done, the Jedi still on Coruscant were dead or captured. Those off-world had been attacked by the clones. The situation was still quite chaotic.
If given time and things calm down, Sidious would be able to protect himself better.

That Mas Ameda wanted out as not to die, ok, but what reason would he have for NOT calling for security?
Did he think that Sidious would be offended if help arrived?
"How dare you assume that I could ever need help? I am an all-powerful GOD! I NEVER need help!!!"

If Sidious can take out Yoda on his own, then the help does no harm.
If Sidious is in danger of loosing, then the help would be very valuable.
So Mas Ameda has no good reason not to call for help and plenty of reason to do so.
If Yoda wins and Sidious is killed and the Empire falls apart, then he could wind up arrested.

As for this whole thing, I think that taking a badly choreographed fight, motivations changed in reshoots but only some scenes were re-filmed and expecting things to make sense is futile.
Things happen because Plot.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

and...

locked thread

 

@Samuel Vimes

The reshoots and character motivations are pretty clear.

Palpatine has been setting up the whole Jedi Evil plot since the Opera Scene.

Anakin still believes the Jedi are righteous while the Sith selfish.

Palpatine then tells him the Dark Side can save Padme.

Anakin then wants to save Padme but at the same time doesn’t want to slaughter his Righteous Jedi Family.

So Palpatine gave Anakin the opening to finally get off the fence making his lies come true.

Pretty straightforward.

 

Sidious was far more protected in Return of the Jedi - he had had over 20 years to hone his security system at that point. In ROTS, the transition of power had JUST occurred, it would naturally be easier for Yoda to sneak in.

I mean, where else would Mas Amedda have gone? Sidious doesn't have time in the scene to com anyone, Yoda's constantly trying to kill him. It's not speculation if it's in the film. And come on, you know there were multiple teams of clones in the Senate building at that point - Sidious said to "double your search" which indicates there are other clones looking for Yoda in the building. Yoda could take an army of clones, and he could take Sidious, but he can't do both at the same time. That's why he fled - he didn't have enough time to get back up there and finish the job.

 

Ok but since Mas Amedda left….Yoda still stayed and fought on. Even Knowing the Clones are coming he still have to stop Sidious. It’s only when he gave it his all and still wasn’t enough to beat Sidious is when he finally left.

Using the Clones as excuse is like saying Dooku could have beaten Yoda if it weren’t for the Clones coming also.

Yoda literally fell several feet down while Dooku was no where that damaged and yet you say Dooku was overpowered so he left??

Dooku wasn’t even hit nor knocked to the ground while Yoda got blasted down.

So Yoda left not because of Clones but because of Sidious same with Dooku leaving because of Yoda and not because of Clones.

 

But to me, this is not exactly what happens.
At the start of RotS, Anakin feels iffy about the Jedi. They put him on the council but does not make him a Master. They ask him to spy on a person that he regards as a friend and mentor and he sees that as possibly treason. He also shows no sign of worry over Palpatine's more and more overt power grabs.
If it ends the war quicker then all good. And Palpatine talks about some "Stop Death Spell".
Anakin does not wonder how Palpatine knows so much about Sith Lore nor does he question the validity of this claim.

So for the first part, Anakin distrusts the Jedi, he sees no problem with a dictator in charge and he wants a way to save Padme. And that is how he turned in the shooting script. It was due to several factors.
Anakin did not tell Mace about Palpatine being Sidious, he was present in the room when Mace and co barged in.

But then that was changed and only some scenes were re-shot. So we have some with first Anakin and some with second Anakin. Now Palpatine tells Anakin that he is a Sith and right there, Anakin sees that the Jedi were totally justified in being suspicious of Palpatine. They were right to ask him to spy on him because Palpatine is the one behind all the problems of the past ten or so years.
Anakin feels to angry and betrayed that he is itching to kill Palpatine right then and there.

But he tells the Jedi and he is all for removing Palpatine from office and arresting him and he says that Mace will need his help because he suspects that Palpatine might not come quietly.
So Anakin thinks that there could be a fight. But if so, he wants to be there and help arrest Palpatine.

But Mace leaves him behind and Anakin stews in his worry and fear of loosing Padme and so he goes and Padme is all he cares about. If there is a fight, as he thinks is possible, if Palpatine is killed then Padme dies.
So he arrives and sees and hears Mace try to arrest Palpatine, again something Anakin is totally onboard with. And then he sees Palpatine violently resist arrest and try to kill Mace and Mace defending himself.
Interestingly, Anakin makes no move to help Mace or try to subdue Palpatine.

Then Palpatine stops and acts weak, Mace is now good and mad and switches from arrest to kill. His stated reason makes no sense, he knew that before and nothing has changed there.
So he moves to end this and Palpatine dangles Padme in front of Anakin and that finally gets Anakin to act.
Padme, and he says very clearly that Padme is all he cares about. If Palpatine can save her, he will do anything he asks.
No Jedi plot, no Jedi acting not honorable, it is all Padme, Padme, Padme and Padme.
That is the beginning and end of why Anakin turns.
Then Palpatine suddenly talks of a Jedi plot, that Anakin knows is not real.
And he even hedges what he knows of this "Stop Death Spell" but Anakin apparently does not notice.

So how the turn happens is that Palpatine forces a situation were Anakin must act or Palpatine dies and the secret to save Padme dies with him. So Anakin would have no issue with the Jedi taking over the senate and arresting Palpatine or any of that. As long as he can get this "Stop Death Spell" he does not care. And if he can get that while also being a Jedi and not killing all of them, then he would go for that.
But if the choice is all the Jedi vs Padme, then he chooses Padme.
Does not matter how good and honorable the Jedi are, they could be the most honorable beings in the galaxy and Anakin would still kill all of them if that is what it takes to save Padme. No prize is too high for others to pay in order for Anakin to get what he wants.
Enslave the galaxy, kill billions, murder children and people he has known for years. No problem for Anakin if it saves Padme. What she would think also does not matter.

If the turn was just about Padme as it is now, then do not bother with this Jedi plot or any of that.
Just have it be Padme, end of story. Cluttering it up with other stuff that ultimately does not matter is less good in my opinion.

A thing you are overlooking with Dooku is that his goal was to leave, he had no goal to kill Yoda, Obi-Wan or Anakin. He fought them because they got in his way.
If he gets away, he wins. Staying only endangers him.
Yoda was there to kill Sidious, if he could do that and then he was killed by the clones. Then I think he would have seen that as a good trade.
But staying in the face of a Sidious that is very strong and that gets reinforcements and that would only end with a dead Yoda. He chooses to leave, staying at that point is futile.
As for Yoda thinking that Luke could kill Sidious. Does Yoda think that Luke in RotJ is stronger and more powerful than he was in RotS?

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Yeah the moment when Anakin was appointed by Palpatine to the Jedi Council was the beginning of the manipulation in ROTS obviously he was doing that after TPM.

Palpatine found out Anakin’s buttons on his staged kidnapping. He found out Anakin is willing to use the Dark Side and kill an unarmed enemy as long as he sees them as evil. Hence killing Dooku…check. However Anakin was still hesitant and even said that he shouldn’t have done it for it’s not the Jedi way while Palpatine said revenge is only natural. Anakin was still disappointed in himself. Anakin also would not leave Obi-Wan to die even though Palpatine told him there’s no time. So Palpatine also found out that Anakin will not easily kill his Jedi Family.

So yeah by that point Palpatine has been playing chess making moves that will trigger the Jedi to make moves that he wanted them to do.

Like continuing the war because of Grevious which made the Jedi to use Anakin to spy on Palpatine.

Putting Anakin on the Council knowing that the Jedi will only do so for Anakin to be closer to Palpatine to spy. Also knowing the Council will also compromise by not making Anakin a true master which of course will cause more rift between Anakin.

The spying alone makes Anakin questions the Jedi motives but not enough for him to see them as evil that has to be exterminated.

So Palpatine planted the seeds of the evil Jedi plot on the Opera Scene. Even telling Anakin that he knows the Jedi asked Anakin to spy on him. Anakin was doubting the Jedi even more at this point BUT still Anakin pushed back saying the Jedi are good while Sith evil. So Palpatine used the Padme stuff which tempted Anakin but still very conflicted because he doesn’t want to be the bad guy in his story.

If it’s all about Padme…Anakin would have joined Palpatine the moment he said he was a Sith Lord.

But when Palpatine told him he knows the Dark Side…Anakin became more conflicted from wanting to kill him to finally reporting him to the Jedi.

At that point, Anakin’s plan was to help the Jedi arrest the Chancellor so he can pump info to save Padme while in jail.

So Palpatine reinforced what he was saying that the Jedi will not arrest him but execute him to take over. He also said that he must break through the fog of lies the Jedi has been saying about the Sith and the Dark Side. So that means what Anakin knows about the Sith is from the Jedi who Palpatine claimed as liars. Dooku my apprentice…says who?? the Jedi?? Wasn’t Dooku a former Jedi?? Me behind everything??? Says who the Jedi?? Who was the opposition??? That’s right…Dooku!! A former Jedi.

So Anakin has all those things going through his head…is Palpatine the wise grandpa he knows all his life a liar or the Jedi who has been keeping secrets from him about the Force??? Anakin was in the fence vowing that he will quickly discover the truth to all of this.

Then boom…he walks in on an aggressive Jedi over a defenseless Chancellor. Sure Mace said he was under arrest but was he just saying that because he walked in?? Either way…if he was team Sith …Anakin would have back stab Mace right there and then but didn’t.

Cue the lightning followed by the words…he’s a traitor…I have the power to save your wife…don’t let him kill me…I can’t hold it anymore. Lightning to change Mace from arrest to kill. Why was Anakin not helping Mace?? Because Mace was deflecting and it was Palpatine who seems was getting attack. Again, If Anakin was team Sith he would have killed Mace right then and there but again he didn’t.

Palpatine gave up..now we can take him to jail. But there it is ….the gambit Palpatine has put in motion. Mace didn’t go for arrest he went for the kill instead. Palpatine finally gave Anakin a way off the fence. Check mate.

What Mace doesn’t know is that Palpatine is connected to Padme. If Palpatine dies so is the power to save Padme so he couldn’t see Anakin’s betrayal.

When Palpatine obliterated Mace…Anakin couldn’t stop Palpatine because why arrest him now when a Jedi was about to exterminate him in the first place..Palpatine had the right to kill his assassin. Then Palpatine reinforced what he was saying in the beginning that because the Jedi did not trust Anakin..he wasn’t in on the Jedi Plot. Now we must destroy all this evil Jedi Traitors and at same time you will gain more power through the Dark Side by doing so.

As for the Yoda vs Sidious, I was only commenting on what @Darkslayer said that If there were no clones …Yoda would have killed Sidious which is very bias.

Yoda fell…Sidious didn’t. If there were no clones …Sidious would still have the upper hand. It’s pure logic….unless you think Yoda is invulnerable like Superman where a fall that harsh he could still be same power level.

Just picture 2 boxers fighting several feet above the ring and one fell the way Yoda did while the other didn’t…do you really think the boxer that fell will have the advantage over the other boxer who did not fall??

It’s just funny because Yoda never landed a single blow to Dooku …literally zero…except jumping around looking cool. But yet when Dooku left and the clones came…oh it’s because Yoda made him retreat. Even though the Clones came to help Yoda right after Dooku left.

But with Sidious, where he knocked Yoda out cold with his first lightning.

Blasted Yoda’s lightsaber with his second lightning.

And when Yoda finally deflected the 3rd lightning…it blew both of them up making him have a damaging fall.

But yet…if it wasn’t for Clones…Yoda would have won??? Cmon now lol


As for the Yoda thinking ROTJ Luke was more powerful than him on ROTS??

I think Yoda through his meditation for decades found out that you can’t beat the Sith through raw power but through other means. Jedi is for knowledge while Sith is for power.

Luke actually dropped his weapon consciously which even threw off Sidious for a moment. All Sidious know is raw power so for Luke doing that…Palpatine just barraged him not knowing there’s a bigger power beyond physical power. Destiny. He was blinded by his own power he couldn’t see Vader would back stab him.

So I don’t think Yoda thought Luke was more powerful than he on his prime in ROTS but does know …it’s in Luke’s destiny that he will stop the Emperor. There’s a saying …to stop an unstoppable force is not to stop it. Or to catch an uncatchable prey…is not to catch it. Destiny will come to you.

If the Jedi didn’t stoop down to Sidious level in only seeing in physical power…Anakin would have fulfilled his destiny in killing Sidious.

But instead the Jedi went to war with a Sith which is not natural for the Jedi.

 

Addressing each of your replies point by point
1) Yes, of course he stayed to fight, that was why he went there in the first place. He knew he had to kill Sidious before the Clones arrived. When he fell off the pod, he fled because he sensed the Clones coming, and the film supports this since they showed up in the next scene.

2) Not quite. The fights were completely different in nature. Dooku's goal on Geonosis was simply to leave the planet. Yoda's was to capture him (he was the CIS leader and simply put, Yoda loved Dooku a lot and would not have killed him). The Coruscant fight was a straight-up assassination attempt. Yoda and Sidious were both trying hard to kill the other combatant.

3) I don't understand this one, can you elaborate?

4) Not sure what relevance this has. Remember, Yoda was not going all out against Dooku.

5) Dooku left because it was his goal. Yoda left because he sensed the Clones.

Just FYI, I do love the debate. Let's keep the conversation going

 

Yoda fell…Sidious didn’t. If there were no clones …Sidious would still have the upper hand. It’s pure logic….unless you think Yoda is invulnerable like Superman where a fall that harsh he could still be same power level.

Just picture 2 boxers fighting several feet above the ring and one fell the way Yoda did while the other didn’t…do you really think the boxer that fell will have the advantage over the other boxer who did not fall??