PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

To get back to where I left off.

Yes, I agree that this scene has ramifications for one's interpretation of the rest of the Saga, though I don't care about 7 - 9, as I don't really like them, so for me, the Saga ends at ROTJ. For me, the rest is fan fiction.

I think your point about Anakin's agency is somewhat correct. My interpretation does take some agency away from him, but not all of it. He's responsible for his values. It's on him that he cares more about saving his wife than the welfare of the Republic and the lives of the other Jedi. It's also on him that when placed in a position where he must choose -- he decides to side with Palpatine over Mace. That's his choice. At the same time, I agree that his responsibility for his position is lessened because Palpatine has tricked him into believing false things about the Jedi and manipulated him into a position where he has to make a split second decision about whether he should "save" Palpatine.

For me, Palpatine playing a big part in his fall makes Anakin more deserving of pity when after losing Padme he ends up a limbless handicapped man who's dependent on a mechanical suit and trapped as the apprentice of a man he hates and helped trick him into ending up in that position. It also makes Palpatine's comeuppance more satisfying for me. He helped do this to Anakin, and in ROTJ, he finally gets his.

I do think you're somewhat mischaracterizing what those who argue for "Palpatine's elaborate plan" are actually saying. None of us argue that there's a "omniscient and omnipotent Chancellor Palpatine who single-handedly dominates the Galaxy because he can never lose at anything."

We all point out that the Palpatine has made mistakes, and not just in ROTJ. For instance, he failed in getting the perfect apprentice that he always wanted.

Also, none of us are arguing that Palpatine has planned everything out omnisciently from Ep 1 to 3. We agree that some of his decisions are spur of the moment, while others are parts of more elaborate plans that have multiple steps.

And, in regards to the charge that he's omniscient, I've consistently maintained that all Palpatine has to foresee is either 1) that Anakin will enter when he's just been disarmed and know that he can hold Mace off with his lightning or 2) that Anakin will return at an unspecified time during their duel and when he senses him coming he'll throw the fight because he knows he's so much more powerful than Mace that he's not a danger to him. This level of foresight is not that different from what is seen with other Force-sensitive characters, and many Force-users sense how powerful other ones are with the Force.

You also asked me why the line "No, no, no, you will die!" isn't a dead give away to Anakin. For me, when Anakin enters Palpatine's office he doesn't know what he's seeing -- is this an arrest or an assassination attempt -- and the 1st impression that he sees seems to say assassination attempt, which is the "truth" that Palpatine suggests Anakin would discover. So, if Mace is a traitor trying to assassinate Palpatine, then he has the right to defend himself, and that plays along with what he's already been telling Anakin. Mace also reinforced this notion by excluding Anakin from the arrest, making Anakin think that he's possibly being excluded because they don't intend to arrest him, and Palpatine has been making the case for this ever since they asked Anakin to spy on him. Palpatine also has to convince Mace that he must kill him rather than arrest him, so not everything said is only for Anakin's benefit. Finally, it seemed like you were saying that this discredits the playing weak argument, but Palpatine only starts playing weak after he begins using his lightning on Mace. At least, that's my take.



@Samuel Vimes,

I don't think any of us are arguing that Palpatine had the "playing weak vs Mace" ploy planned at the beginning of the film.

Yes, if he could've turned Anakin after he killed Dooku, then that would've been that, but it doesn't seem like he was trying very hard to turn him at that time, but maybe he stopped because Anakin chose to save Obi-Wan.

At the Opera House, he seems to set up the idea that the Jedi are treasonous as a way to flip him, but when he doesn't bite, he then switches to the "cheat death" angle, but for some reason he stops there, maybe because he doesn't want to reveal that he's a Sith in a public place.

Then, when they're alone, he reveals himself to be a Sith who can save Padme. Like you say, he'd be fine if Anakin turns here. However, it's at this point that it seems to me that he already has a back up contingency plan, as well, since he's already encouraging him to tell the Jedi about him when the normal instinct would be to want to keep it a secret. That tells me that he's thought through the consequence of Anakin rejecting his offer, and he's already come up with the idea of manipulating their arrest to appear as if it's an assassination attempt. This plan has many moving parts -- he has to anticipate that the Jedi will arrest him, he has to know how many Jedi are around to arrest him and that he's more powerful than all of them, he has to know that Anakin will return during the arrest, he might even have to know exactly when Anakin will return so that what he sees looks like an assassination. Since it would be foolish to encourage Anakin to tell the Jedi with the hope that they will appear treasonous without knowing that he can put them in that position or that too many of them might show up and overwhelm him, then it seems to me that it's at this point that he's planned out the rest.

So, previous to this interaction, he's probably foreseen that Anakin will enter just after he's been disarmed or he's at least foreseen that Anakin will return and knows he can hold off Mace until then (because that'd be weirdly lucky for him enter right at that time if one of those aren't the case), and using this knowledge, he's pieced together the rest of what he needs to know so that he can make their arrest appear like an assassination and how he needs to act to place Anakin in a position where he must choose his life over Mace's. Since this is a lot to consider, I don't think he comes up with it at the spur of moment when Anakin doesn't join him when he reveals himself to be a Sith. Instead, it's planned out in advance.

Roughly that's my take on it, and I mention a couple variations on what he has to know to achieve this part of his plan, some that mostly agree with what you said previously: "I can accept that Palpatine was holding back a little, maybe he sensed that Anakin was on his way or he had foreseen it. So he stalls a bit and keeps dancing with Mace."

Lucas says something like "It's not the Jedi way. He must stand trial" is Anakin's rationalization for his behavior, while "I need her" is his real motivation, so he needs both to betray Mace. I pretty much see it this way, or something close to it. Preventing Padme's death is clearly what motivates Anakin to "save" Palpatine. Thinking Mace is treasonous, at least, makes it easier for him to take that last step -- i.e. killing off a treacherous jerk is easier than killing off a saint. So, maybe Anakin would've done it anyway, but having that in play makes it more likely that he'll side with Palpatine. Also, Palpatine can't be sure exactly what's going to work, so he's playing all the angles he can.

After he's chopped off his hand and Palpatine instantly attacks Mace full power, Anakin seems to pretty quickly realize he's been tricked and knows that Palpatine is evil, but he's past the point of no return. He's cast his lot with Palpatine to save Padme, and if he tried to return to the Jedi, they'd most likely arrest him. Since he feels he can't go back and will do anything to save Padme, he does whatever he's told. He knows that killing the children is wrong -- that's clear from his depiction in the scene -- but he does it anyway. Lucas included the scene to show that he's irredeemable at this point. I think he also included it for another reason. He said he didn't want people to think it's cool that he's become Vader and that he feared people would root for Vader killing Jedi (much like the Rogue One Vader scene). Well, killing children is something that nobody would root for.

After he turns to the dark side, I'm not sure how much Anakin puts together that the Jedi were mostly in the right. It was wrong for Mace to attempt to kill Palpatine, and that's the last impression that Anakin is left with. More significantly, I think it's easier for Anakin not to delve too deeply into those questions. It's easier for him to remain in denial, believing that the Jedi are little better than the Sith. In my mind, that's pretty similar to how other people who've acted in horrible ways behave. Virtually none of the Nazis who were put on trial in Nuremberg looked back and reassessed what they did, so his behavior seems in keeping with human nature.

 

Can I ask why you are so insistent on calling people who happen to think Palpatine in that moment, was caught off guard, as 'Mace fans' and not just a viewer who thinks "hey that guy legit took that guy to the floor with that chin kick"? People can actually just happen to think that's just what happened without being a 'fan' of the character...this isn't Cobra Kai with Robbie fans on one side and Miguel fans on the other blinded by love of a certain character...at least I hope not.

This is it to me, in a nutshell. The bit in bold is the dullest take I could possibly take away from this franchise.

I don't. I think Jabba-wocky is spot on with his observation and share it as do others, and I've seen page after page of it.

 

Palpatine losing on Mace on purpose is to change the arresting Anakin from on the fence conflicted to finally joining him.

Luke on the other hand didn’t PLAN anything….if he did then the movie would have SHOWED something like “maybe if I don’t fight Palpatine then maybe my father will join me.” No plans at all….he actually was ready to strike the Emperor when he was goaded.

So Luke was just going by instinct….that since fighting is what Palpatine wanted him to do then he will do the opposite and not go with his anger. Fighting is a Sith trait. Defense is a Jedi trait. So he let his guard down and trusted the Force.

TROS, however, that’s all Disney…They are the ones that made Palpatine surviving death with contingency plans on even Vader’s betrayal along with obliterating the whole Resistance Fleet. While JJ Abrams saying his All Powerful…no complaints here.

After all that…you still question his Set Up on Mace.

That’s Mace fanboyism.

There’s a reason Obi-Wan said.
“The Emperor knew as I did, IF ANAKIN WERE TO HAVE any OFFSPRINGS…they would be a THREAT TO HIM.”

He did NOT say….”The Emperor knew as I did…IF there were more Jedi out there…they would be a threat to him.”

 

Oh crap, you're right! It's all about cunning and intellect. But it goes deeper. The real mastermind behind all this, clearly imo, was Vader. Not only did he help Palpatine fake his death, BUT he also faked his own redemption so that he could become a Force ghost! Since that's the only way he could finally beat Obi-Wan and Yoda

He truly learned well as the Sith apprentice. It's all about the long game

 

If only if it was!! Lol

But no dialogues support that. While he did bypass getting judged by the Jedi on the horrors he has done and was easily accepted by the Force Ghosts…no scenes of him planning to fake Palpatine’s death.

 

I cannot speak to what extent things were planned, since this scene was kind of a mess. From what I understand the change in the story to focus more heavily on Padme was something done mostly in reshoots. Anakin was originally in the scene from the beginning and Palpatine fights Mace with Anakin’s lightsaber (and there are still shots in the final fight where he has Anakin’s hilt with a red blade).

Anakin was removed from the scene and Palpatine pretending to lose his powers to convince Anakin that without him Padme will die was something I think was added in reshoots. I believe in the commentary George says that the fight always ended with Palpatine being overpowered but that him pretending to lose his powers was something new.

I don’t know exactly how this fight originally concluded. Did Anakin just step in and cut off Mace’s hand while Palpatine was shooting lightning at Palpatine? But it sounds like originally, Mace absolutely beat Palpatine until Anakin stepped in.

It’s more of a gray area after reshoots. Now Anakin is walking into the room at a point where Palpatine looks defeated and Palpatine accuses Mace of taking over, which itself is clunky since Anakin was the one that reported Palpatine to Mace and Palpatine knew this. So most of this initial scene is maybe some remnant of the original scene(?) since Palpatine is accusing Mace of being a traitor and taking over which doesn’t really work when Anakin is the one that sent Mace to confront Palpatine. That would make more sense in a scenario where Mace moves to remove Palpatine from office without Anakin’s knowledge or input.

If someone wants to say Palpatine intentionally threw the fight to put himself in a compromising position to force Anakin to turn against the Jedi to protect him, I can’t disprove that.

But when it comes to Anakin’s choice, I am less flexible. Whether it was an intentional ploy or whether he legitimately lost to Mace, I feel like Palpatine definitely was at the mercy of Anakin at that moment, and that had Anakin sided with Mace, then Palpatine would have died, he would have been unable to get himself out of that situation had his manipulation of Anakin had not worked.

And I don’t consider myself a Mace “fanboy.” George acknowledges that Anakin wanting to take Palpatine alive was the right decision but for the wrong reason. Anakin had earlier stated his desire to kill Palpatine. It wasn’t a sense of justice that made Anakin want to spare Palpatine, it was his desire and arrogant belief that once arrested Anakin could force Palpatine to reveal what he knew.

George doesn’t really elaborate on his view about what Mace planned to do. But in the film itself, Yoda refers to the plot to overthrow Palpatine and take control of the Senate as leading to a dark place.

Mace attempted twice to arrest Palpatine and presumably hand him over to the courts, but after Palpatine antagonized him with lightning, Mace flipped and suggests that Palpatine must die because the Senate and courts are compromised. That sounds like someone reaching for justification. He wants to kill Palpatine and he’s looking for an excuse to do it.

What would have happened had Mace killed Palpatine? That story was never written and it’s possible that George himself never gave it a moment’s thought.

Dave Filoni had put forth the idea that Mace would have turned himself in to the authorities and faced their justice for his actions, but he acknowledged that was his personal belief and not something he ever discussed with George.

I personally disagree with that assessment. I think all signs pointed to something bad happening. Mace was putting himself above the law, he was going to kill the legally elected Chancellor without trial. He was plotting for the Jedi to take control of the Senate. If he was really convinced that the Sith corruption in the Senate was too deep to trust their ability to carry out justice, then why would he fall on his sword and turn himself in?

That scene for me is more than just about Palpatine convincing Anakin to turn his back on the Jedi. To antagonize Mace enough to be willing to kill him required that Mace’s principles also be compromised.

Mace was originally going to arrest Palpatine exactly as Anakin had hoped. That was the right course of action. And the actual act of arresting Palpatine was never actually called into question. Between Anakin and Mace it was likely possible. But after Mace flipped and began to doubt the government and used that doubt to justify killing Palpatine, then Anakin and Mace were no longer on the same page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Ah, but there are no scenes of Palpatine planning his fake duel with Mace either, but it clearly happened, right?

 

Nah it was a stalemate and Anakin choosing Palpatine instead without Palpatine faking to lose his power. The graphic novel even has Mace …telling Anakin that Palpatine was too strong. But Anakin just cut the stalemate by cutting Mace’s hand.

Lucas added the Palpatine to fake losing his power to make Anakin’s choice a non selfish one.

Hence the whole point of why Palpatine did this in the first place.

If he really wanted all 4 Jedi Dead then why confront them at all ..at least have some Clone Troopers to help out.

The Novel Palpatine has been recording this whole thing.

So it’s safe to say the movie Palpatine also is recording this even though it’s deleted.

“You know I’m not able to rely on the Jedi Council…if they haven’t included you on their PLOT they soon will.”

“You must sense what I’ve come to suspect, the Jedi Council wants CONTROL OVER THE REPUBLIC. They are PLANNING TO BETRAY ME.”

So Palpatine was just talking randomly and just praying that the Jedi do BECOME EVIL and start to take over???

Anakin wasn’t buying it and vows to find the truth so what’s Palpatine’s next move??

He then called out to Anakin on the Jedi Temple….saying “You do know don’t you….if the Jedi DESTROY ME…any chance of saving her would be lost.”

Why would the Jedi Destroy him if they are just going there to arrest him???

Which then lead to “Anakin!! I told you it would come to this!! I WAS RIGHT!! The JEDI ARE TAKING OVER!!”

It’s not a coincidence his lies to Anakin came true when he lost.

You don’t plan to frame the Jedi BEFORE this and when it’s time to frame them you randomly decide to kill the Jedi before Anakin showed up but then lost which ended up framing them anyways. Lol

 

If Palpatine never needed Anakin in order to win/survive, what was the point? Why make the story about him? Why is there a Prophecy of the Chosen One? He just happened to be standing in the room but things would have had the same outcome even if he wasn't?

 

Exactly! Vader planned the whole thing!

 

Obi-Wan:
You were the Chosen One!! You were to DESTROY the Sith!! NOT JOIN THEM!!

What outcome are you talking about??

This whole duel was to make Anakin to change from arrest to joining him instead.

Like I said before if Anakin chose to fight with Mace then the prophecy would be fulfilled. But Palpatine has manipulated it that it made Mace act like a Sith which ended up Anakin to finally join him. It is called Revenge of the Sith.

“What have I done?!”

That doesn’t sound like a guy who was planning to betray Mace and join Palpatine the moment he walked in.

What you’re suggesting on the other hand…is IF Anakin didn’t come at all then Palpatine would have died making Mace the true Chosen One.

Yes the dialogues in the Opera Scene support that!!

Anakin:
The power to save death huh?? Ok After I save Padme I will be Palpatine‘s loyal lap dog for the rest of my life and destroy every single Jedi. Then to get back in the good graces of the Jedi…I will back stab him one day sacrificing myself so he can survive later on so his granddaughter can kill him and then take my last name!

 

In Legends for me Mace Windu won at least in terms with the lightsaber combat for the Vaapad style in the New Canon Palpatine let Mace win since i dont know if the Vaapad lightsaber style exists in the New Universe

 

Kill him? Have you learned nothing? Palpatine lost to Rey on purpose!

 

Yeah I wish! But most likely not.

I mean he did want her to kill him in the beginning so he can be within her but then changed his mind the moment he found out she was a Dyad with Ben and absorbed them to restore himself. His plans in TROS is all over the place.

Hmmmm maybe he is alive somehow in Rey Skywalker’s body.

So you got me there.

 

According to you, Mace is much weaker than Yoda. According to your logic, Anakin is weaker than Obi-wan. According to Yoda, he and Obi-wan are not enough to beat Sidious. How are two people each inferior, ever going to do what they couldn’t? You contradict yourself. If Palpatine is that much stronger, Analon’s participation is a non-factor.

 

seagoat paid attention to earlier in the scene!!!

don't you see??????

IT WAS ALL A SET UP

he told Rey to strike him down to complete the sacrifice


it's like soooooooooooooo obvious!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL

IT IS SOOO NOT POSSIBLE THAT PLANS CHANGE DURING A SCENE, C'MON MAN

"ALL YOU <INSERT FANS> HERE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT WAS SAID HOURS, DAYS, WEEKS, MONTHS, YEARS EVEN CENTURIES BEFORE

 

Not really. Even if Mace is the one to strike the finishing blow, Anakin is still:

A. The one who killed Dooku
B. The one who discovered the identity of the last Sith
C. The one who made Sidious develop a plan that incorrectly banked on Anakin's cooperation, thereby leaving the Sith incredibly vulnerable when it didn't happen (It's also worth highlighting that this is exactly what happened in ROTJ.).

The reverse is not true, however. If Palpatine can beat Mace Windu easily, he can also beat Mace and Anakin, and there was never any hope of a Jedi victory.

How did the Resistance win?

1. The whole Galaxy came to help them fight
2. Lando Calrissian was the crucial factor in recruiting everyone
3. Lando Calrissian was first brought into the conflict by none other than Darth Vader
4. Darth Vader has the power of telepathy, we know Sith/Jedi have limited ability to see the future, and Darth Vader has a proven track record of manipulating Lando Calrissian to serve the Empire's ultimate plans

. . .

Is it really plausible that Vader didn't realize what would happen? Or did Palpatine "lose" this battle by bringing in a known agent the Sith had already operated through before? Think about.

 

I saw this thread got reactivated, immediately thought of @Guidman, and chuckled

 

No. Anakin as a Jedi is the only threat to Sidious.

That is why he is trying to turn him. As a Sith, even if Vader defeats him…Sith wins.

Just like he feared Luke and Rey as a Jedi….that’s why he wants them to turn to the Dark Side or die. He sent Vader to convert or kill Luke and Kylo to convert or kill Rey.

IF Anakin did not fall for Palpatine’s manipulations and let go of his fear in losing Padme then he would have gained his potential and powered up to defeat Palpatine as the prophecy of the Chosen One.

So yeah…..Sidious and Yoda are on a different level while Anakin, Tyranus, Kenobi and Mace are on level below BUT as The Chosen One…Anakin can surpass Sidious and Yoda.

“Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.”

 

Excuse me, what? They are in the office at that moment? You are saying if Anakin had made the right choice in that one moment, he would have gotten an automatic, instantaneous "Friendship is Magic" boost that made him stronger than anyone else in the Chancellor's office? Star Wars has never worked like that at all. If Anakin had made the right choice, he would be a morally better person that was exactly as weak as five seconds prior when he was still deciding. If Palpatine had been able to demolish Anakin and Mace combined easily at the start of the duel, the same would be true at the end.

Will become. Not "is currently." He lost a fight to Obi-wan, who is not strong enough to fight Sidious. Therefore Anakin is by definition not strong enough to fight Sidious either. If someone can still win a fight despite being significantly weaker than their opponent, then your whole argument about Mace falls apart, because it literally rests on the idea that it's impossible to lose to someone weaker than you.

 

Wow!! Again you missed the point of The Chosen One.

Like you thought WRONG about Anakin NOT THERE TO ARREST HIM…you have also MISREAD this whole thing.

The word DESTINY is all throughout the movies.

The Skywalker Line is DESTINED to stop the Dark Lord. Disney ADDED later that Rey ALSO Could. At least they kept up with Lore and made her a Palpatine. You noticed they could have gain more diversity points if they made her a Windu, the most glorified second tier character. But even nope …even they understood the lore. It’s all about the Skywalker line and now the Palpatine line because of Disney.

Darth Vader in ROTJ was obviously NOT AS POWERFUL AS the Emperor….YET HE POWERED UP and DESTROYED the Dark Lord himself.

And no this (power up) Does Not apply to Mace, Kenobi, and not even Yoda himself.

Why do you think Kenobi and Yoda hid for 18 years or so and WAITED to train Luke or Leia who were OBVIOUSLY still weaker than them even by the time of ROTJ???

Why would the Emperor even fear Luke by the time of the TESB where he was obviously still more powerful than him. Even Yoda was more powerful than Luke in TESB….yet he will send him to fight the 2 Sith??

“The Emperor knew as I did…IF MACE WINDU were to have any Offsprings…they would be a THREAT TO HIM.”

~ Said by Kenobi NEVER

Rey and Kylo were weaker than Palpatine yet when he tried to kill Kylo he ended up surviving.

While Rey (Powered up) to fulfill her destiny along with the help of the whole Jedi Force Ghosts in her head. Lol

This is all about the Skywalkers and now Rey Palpatine who is now a Skywalker too. Lol

By ROTS, there are different levels

Sidious and Yoda on top which means anyone can win between the two BUT even Yoda realized at the end….it’s not his DESTINY to kill Sidious.

Why do you think he never wanted that rematch again??? And don’t say because Emperor is well guarded….unless your saying Luke has the power to make all those guards disappear. Lol

By ROTS, the second tier is Vader, Kenobi, Tyranus and Mace …in right situations one can beat each other. But none of them EXCEPT The Chosen One could rise up to defeat both Yoda and Sidious himself.

“The Emperor knew as I did, IF ANAKIN WERE TO HAVE ANY OFFSPRINGS, They would be a THREAT TO HIM.”

Really??? BABIES??? Heck everyone here is stronger than babies…but YET Sidious sees them as THREATS!!?? Call it (Magic Friendship Boost) or Destiny…..but Yoda, Kenobi and Palpatine sure believes it…that Emperor wants Vader to either turn them or kill them while Yoda and Kenobi BLINDLY HAS PUT ALL THEIR HOPE IN THEM. They didn’t do it themselves And also NOT Look or TRAIN other new Jedi.

Power levels aside. Why do I say that MACE didn’t get lucky or powered up or just got the right situations to beat Palpatine????

It’s because that “LOST” conveniently and coincidentally made all of Palpatine’s GOALS COME TRUE.

BEFORE THIS….Palpatine didn’t have Anakin and the reason for ORDER 66.

What A GREAT COINCIDENCE that him losing finally made his goals come true.

Viceroy:
Your PLAN has gone as promised my Lord.

Sidious:
Yes my plan to frame the Jedi by not framing them and killing them instead before framing them only to lose which ends up framing them at the end. Yes Viceroy, everything is going as planned.

You keep confusing Palpatine with Sidious. Palpatine is the harmless but wise politician who is just a front to gain public support and hide the Sidious persona who is the Dark Lord himself where powerhouses like Maul, Tyranus and Vader FEARS.

Saying Mace overpowered Palpatine is like saying Grievous kidnapped Palpatine and those 2 battle droids also overpowering Palpatine. It’s all a sham.

If Mace fought Sidious AFTER Anakin turned and Order 66 like Yoda did…and then this happened…then yes I will say…Mace did beat him because he has nothing to gain if he lost to Mace at that point in the movie.

But not BEFORE when it’s an obvious SET UP to finally make all his goals come true.

 

In my view, Palpatine does need Anakin to win/survive. He needs to trap the Chosen One as his apprentice so that even if he does overthrow Palpatine one Sith remains -- Anakin. The continuation of the Sith line is his main goal. Lucas has him state this outright when he concedes to Yoda that he might kill him. "That doesn't matter. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Also, he needs to find a way to turn Anakin soon after the knowledge of his being a Sith gets out. If Anakin remains a Jedi and escapes from the Mace - Palpatine confrontation, he might return with Yoda. Also, maybe Mace + Anakin is a powerful enough team to take him out. I don't know.

You're asking what the point of this scene was. In my mind, the reason this scene is important to the Chosen One prophecy is not that it's a chance to kill Palpatine. It's that it's a chance for Palpatine to cleverly thwart the Chosen One prophecy or at least postpone its fulfillment for a long time, which ends up happening.

Also, this is the 1st confrontation between the good guys and the bad guys. It's normal for the good guys to take some losses before they get the W, and it's normal for good guys to take on more powerful, more cunning foes. That raises the stakes. Just one example. In Infinity Wars, the good guys teaming up against Thanos take like 4 losses in IW alone, including one where he makes it appear that they won when they didn't, and in EG, Thanos still defeats them in combat. Tony just outsmarts him.

I agree with you here. He wouldn't have achieved a magic power up. One on one versus Palpatine he'd be toast, though maybe because of prophecy, fate would intervene and save Anakin in some way. That depends on how the prophecy is interpreted.

I don't understand why you think that it's impossible (based on our arguments) that Mace and Anakin couldn't have taken Palpatine together.



Also, you argued that our scenario would turn Mace into an idiot. I'm wondering if any of my arguments save Mace from idiocy in your view.

 

Yeah same thing happened when Vader who was obviously not as powerful as The Emperor in ROTJ…but yet magically destroyed him.

Same thing with Rey who was rag dolled by the “destroyed” Palpatine who was obviously not as powerful as the Dark Lord in TROS but yet magically powered up to defeat the Restored Dark Lord.

Yoda and Kenobi believed it so much that they totally didn’t even bother to fight the Sith and instead waited to train the Skywalker children who were obviously not as powerful as the Dark Lord at anytime in the OT. But trusted in the Force that they will fulfill the prophecy.

The Emperor himself who was obviously more powerful than Rey and Luke yet fears them and wants them dead or to be converted to the Dark Side.

So IF Anakin would have stayed the path of the Jedi…he would have ended the Sith.

That is why Palpatine had to manipulate that power to his side.

As a Jedi, he is his biggest threat. As a Sith, then that power will be contained. And like all Sith Evolution…it is required for the apprentice to surpass the master to become the master or for the master to become even more powerful if he can stop that powerful apprentice.

That is why Sidious was gleeful when he said that Darth Vader will BECOME MORE POWERFUL than even he and Yoda. Because as a Sith…even if he defeats him …Sith wins. As a Jedi however and he beats Palpatine then Sith loses.

 

I think this is more of a taunt. The Sith have a weird and contradictory ideology that is an entirely different rabbit hole to go down. But suffice it to say that the egotistical nature of the philosophy doesn't really make it plausible that he honestly values the Sith's continuation over his own life. Rather, I think that in that one moment he is saying that the Sith will still have a way to win. His underlying preference is still his own survival and victory. If it came down to the two of them, he would much rather kill Anakin than survive himself.

This seems like a misreading of the situation to me. Anakin came there of his own free will. There is nothing to "escape" from. He came not because he doubted Mace's ability, but because he was concerned that he might lose access to Palpatine--and thus his ability to save Padme. The very fact that he shows up at all very heavily suggests he was near turning. A person who was confident in their commitment to the Jedi would never have put themselves in a position to be so deeply tempted.

This, like your whole emphasis on the Chosen One, seems to turn on how deterministic the Star Wars universe is. However, to my reading, it's not very much like that at all. This isn't one of those stories where what's seen absolutely must happen, even sometimes directly caused by people's attempts to avoid it. Instead, we see a lot of visions that just never come to pass. It also seems to be that premonitions people see happen only because people act in the way they are expected. Yoda even says "Always in motion the future is." With this kind of understanding, how can Palpatine have foreseen the ending of the duel accurately? He doesn't know what moves Mace is going to make from moment to moment, and any deviance could throw off the entire accuracy of the prophecy. That seems somewhat haphazard.

First, my comments about impossibility are more directed at the other half dozen people, who are arguing Palpatine so thoroughly outclasses Mace that he can be toying with him the whole time without Mace even being aware of the fact (That, again, is an incredible skill gap. If people are at all within reach of one another's skill, there's at least one moment when they might be forced to reveal their actual capacity, thus betraying that everything that came prior was a facade). Can you clarify for me where you fell on this spectrum? I could probably give you a better answer then.

[/QUOTE]

I think there's a couple things that are problematic with this explanation. For your last one, the trope doesn't really apply. It's heroic to face impossible odds when there are no other choices. But here, there clearly are. He could just wait for Yoda. The fact that he doesn't is foolhardy and perhaps selfish, because he's trying to hog glory for himself if he knowingly goes into a situation he cannot handle, when it would have been easier to wait for back-up and there's no real urgency in going now.

Second, I don't think Obi-wan really assumed he could fight Palpatine. He gave his reasoning. It was all about refusing to fight Anakin because of their closeness. That's quite different. But if your theory is based on this ESP thing--why would it work for Yoda, but not Mace? Where are you honestly getting that Yoda is that wildly superior? The two of them are shown to be about equal in rank and prestige. The most logical conclusion would be that they are probably similar in ability, too. You have points to explain this away, but at other times you lean heavily on "movie logic" even though, following movie logic in this case, it seems to be what we are told.

And that's the arbitrary nature of all this. Go along with tropes unless they suggest Mace might have won. Use behind the scenes quotes liberally to demonstrate Palpatine's superiority, but declare they're not important if they suggest Mace might have won. Et cetera. I feel like I am seeing a lot of motivated reasoning (eg, "I want Palpatine to win, and here's how it's possible") and less application of principle regardless of where it leads.

Sidious69[b/]: Random capitalization doesn't make your argument stronger. Anyway, I will try to get back to you later.