PT Who Thinks the Prequel Trilogy is Better than the Originals?

Ahh...Look a closer into the magnifying glass....Are there "really" TFA bashers that protrude these forums? Not in the slightest. You'll see a lot of critiques, but that's pretty normal for films.

Bashing would be aggressive. As you can see, there is no aggression on TFA on the entire PT forum.

Don't act like this is some negative forum...

 

Well, to counter that slightly...

Premise 1: I think there's been some aggression here.

Premise 2: Not all bashing is necessarily aggressive.

It follows, then, that some people here (myself included) are following in the footsteps of PT bashers. I agree with JCK there. And, after all, prequel fans are only human.

Where I disagree is that this is necessarily bad or something to be too concerned about. We haven't seen anywhere near the same magnitude of malignancy or disdain.

And prequel fans should be free to air grievances -- even very strong opinions inclined to the negative -- without being hastily lumped in with their supposed "Dark Side" equivalents (which a blanket statement like JCK's is all about doing: a disruptive ploy).

In other words, there's bashing and there's bashing. Last I checked, TFA even includes a few virulent, loud-and-proud bashers in the credits (e.g., Simon Pegg). Are prequel fans now meant to be associated with and just as bad as the sort of calumny Simon Pegg represents: a grown man who works in the entertainment industry, has ranted on the films for years and recently equated the prequels to infanticide (and right, as it happens, when TFA was about to come out -- talk about classy timing and not being able to let something go)?

 

When he talks about bashing, I imagine he is talking about the extremes. As if, the entire forum is corrupted by it. Which it isn't. While there is a dark side, I think it's safe to say that we have yet to cross the line.

This also makes things sound as if the PT fans are getting their turn to "bash".

Oddly enough, I've been getting a Lot of comments now blaming the pt fans. Not only is it generalizing, it creates a false mentality.

Perhaps I am on the frustrated side of things as of now, because I keep seeing patterns of all shapes and sizes through my perspective, within the fandom.

To conclude my asinine ramble of old man Ezon and his illusionary conspiracies , your right Cryo.

 

Cogent -- and, in my opinion, right on.

I think I agree with you.

PT fans are still being blamed for this or that -- but, eh, what's new?

Not too asinine, Ezon. No more than mine.

But perhaps we should let this thread gracefully return to its main topic...

Quick! Let's make a hasty exit.

 

Right! No more loose wire jokes for me

 

Seduce me with prequel quotes -- and ROTS Obi-Wan quotes, at that! -- why don't you?

Yes...

EDIT: Or an Anakin quote in this case (but referencing Obi-Wan and his truculent irreverence).

 

Cryogenic - can you believe I only noticed Pegg's special credit when I got the DVD?

I scowled. The darkness welled up. "It's only natural - he bashed you - you want revenge - get on that TFA board now."

I did - and declared a vow of silence on TFA bashing. His 'phantom menace pain' lasted 17 years. I'm over TFA now. I'm a grown man F.F.S

I'll never join him. {tosses saber aside}

 

No doubt every SW fan has a right to give their opinion about any movie, pro or con. But there is a difference between saying StarKiller Base is DeathStar 3, and JJ Abrams is a total hack. There is a difference between saying that a person didn't like the movie, and then saying it's just 'fan fiction' simply because Lucas wasn't involved.

Again, go check my posts, I have never called out someone who didn't like the movie (unlike PT fans who would constantly do that). I do think its hypocritical that the TFA bashers have no problem with some of the cheap shots taken at JJ Abrams but didn't like when those same type of cheap shots were leveled at George Lucas. It's a pox on both sides, and it shows the hypocrisy from both of us.

Fact is fact, that JJ Abrams is part of the SW family now so you have to deal with it just like Kershner and Marquand are too. If you don't like TFA, that's cool with me. But if the TFA bashers are just going to discount JJ Abrams and start taking personal shots at him, they are no better then PT bashers who got their licks in on George Lucas all those years.

The Saga is now 9 movies and that is just a fact of life, so for the OOT fans of 4-6 and the Darth Vader fans of 1-6, that is your own Saga, but I hope this site is consistent that the Saga Forum reflects talk about the 9 movies only. But that's another discussion......

No offense, but 99% of the SW fans have no idea who this guy is (other then people who post on the internet). I honestly could care less if Simon Pegg likes the PT or not, as there are bigger things to worry about then this schmuck.



In the end, if you atleast recognize that there is a TFA basher fanbase being formed and is prevailent on this site. They are doing the same things the PT bashers did as there is a new Bashers Sanctuary, threads are getting derailed between TFA Bashers/Gushers, and many people are getting personal with JJ Abrams.

History repeats itself. But this time you guys are the bashers......

 

I like TFA better than the prequels (it feels like a natural follow-up to the OT, unlike the PT which feel like they're an entirely different entity - which is fitting, for contrast, mind, but I prefer to former to the latter) but the prequels are still amazing. I FULLY understand all of the criticism aimed at the prequels, and love them DESPITE the flaws, rather than blindly ignoring the flaws. ROTS is a monster, TPM has Maul and Qui-Gon and AOC has Yoda's sick duel and the beginning of the clone war, what's not to love, regardless of the flaws?

 

I'll repeat:

And prequel fans should be free to air grievances -- even very strong opinions inclined to the negative

Calling TFA "fan fiction" falls under that rubric.

If you can't handle a movie being landed with a mild epithet like that, perhaps you should grow a thicker skin?

People have already begun to face censure on this site for calling Rey a "Mary Sue". But Jar Jar has been called a racist caricature for years.

Interesting double standard, no?

I don't know about personal shots, but based on your objection to a term like "fan fiction", I'm not sure I can take what you're saying here at face value. If prequel fans are taking personal swipes at Abrams, well, I don't agree with that. But then, I've taken a few myself, so who cares, really?

What was particularly childish and striking about it in the case of Lucas getting called names was that he is the creator of the whole saga. Abrams isn't. He's a hired hand. And when prequel fans tried to argue that Lucas was pursuing a creative vision and had particular aims in mind, they were often denounced and insulted. Even simply trying to have a conversation became caustic. On a Star Wars message board!

The obverse is now occurring: people who dislike TFA (not just prequel fans, by the way) are being rudely handled and shut down at every turn (or so I gather based on brief searches and anecdotes pertaining to the TFA forum). Intrinsically, it feels like many who disliked the PT are still in a position of dominance. They even just got a whole film made that implicitly catered to their tastes and was marketed as such.

You also draw a false equivalence between Abrams and Kershner and Marquand. Those other men were personally brought in and overseen by Lucas himself. Furthermore, Lucas came up with the stories and the characters of the films they directed, and storyboarded and edited them. In effect, while Disney now holds the copyright, they are his movies, bearing his imprimatur. With TFA, that isn't the case. Disney threw out Lucas' treatments and then ran with a marketing campaign that stressed how OT-like TFA would be -- dog whistle for "not like the PT".

Kershner and Marquand were also both humane enough to know that they were working for Lucas and helping him realize a larger vision. But Abrams has tacitly boasted on multiple occasions that TFA represents a return to "classic" Star Wars -- playing to the mob and passing judgement on the PT with code words and trigger terms (more anti-PT dog whistle). To give a couple of examples:


Pre-release:

"I don't think anyone is looking for anything other than the quintessential Star Wars when they get excited about The Force Awakens."

Source: https://m.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeak...orce_awakens_magazine_scans_from_this_months/

I wrote a little more about that remark, and several others by Abrams from the same interview, in this post last year:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...res-models-etc.50017310/page-55#post-52650103



Post-release:

"This movie [The Force Awakens] was a bridge and a kind of reminder; the audience needed to be reminded what Star Wars is"

Source: http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2016/04/16/why-mark-hamill-didnt-want-to-return-as-luke

Thanks to mikeximus for alerting me to that article and drawing my attention to that remark of Abrams.


Can you imagine Kershner or Marquand having the chutzpah to say something like that?

So you may see Abrams as just another member of the family -- but not everyone need share your ecumenical view.

The point isn't whether other people know who Simon Pegg is or not. The point is that he represents a certain kind of hatred and vagrancy which congealed around the prequels over the span of a decade and more. And lumping prequel fans in with that level of antipathy is an invidious move on your part.

Ah -- you really wanted to get to your last line, didn't you?

As I said before, there is bashing and there is bashing.

Let's wait seventeen years and see if prequel fans are as incapable of moving on as OT fans, first, shall we?

 

"History repeats itself. But this time you guys are the bashers......"

Generalising much?

 

Thanks for the tag Cryogenic, let me point you to another telling quote from Abrams in that very same article...


“The weird thing about that movie is that it had been so long since the last one.Obviously the prequels had existed in between and we wanted to, sort of, reclaim the story. So we very consciously - and I know it is derided for this - we very consciously tried to borrow familiar beats so the rest of the movie could hang on something that we knew was Star Wars.”

So Abrams felt the story of Star Wars had to be reclaimed from the Prequels which had existed between TFA and the OT... Interesting, is it not...

Perfectly said Cryo!


I was actually going to say something about his last line, but just let it go... but...

The comparisons between the people here in the PT forum that are vocal about their displeasure with TFA is no where near the same level of vitriol that has been thrown at the PT for the last 17 years.

17 years... compared to a movie that has been out for less than 5 months now... Also, I read a lot of the posts in the TFA forums, though I do not take part. I can say that, for the absolute most part, that many of the people here in the PT forums are not in the TFA forums disrupting threads or conversations with senseless bashing. Most of the people in the TFA forums I see disrupting threads aren't people that I see frequenting the PT forums.. That's not to say that there isn't PT patrons up there doing it, but, in comparison to the overall picture, those PT patrons are a small part...

What is interesting to note though, is that TFA is receiving criticism from all spans of the Star Wars fandom, and not just PT fans, or Lucas defenders... There is a segment of the OT purists that are unhappy with TFA as well...but, shhh they don't want us to know that because it's easier for them to believe that the hate is just being generated from disgruntled PT defenders...

 

Lucas did not write, direct and produce the movie and almost nothing from his story treatment for VII survived it into the film. I quarantee you that.

And as far as I am concerned TFA is a licenced fan fiction. Sue me.

 

It's ironic because the name of this thread is 'Who thinks the Prequel Trilogy is better then the Originals' started by a Prequel fan himself.

Maybe if you guys stopped obsessing 17 years later about which one is better then we could all move on.

 

No problem, Mike. It was absolutely the right thing to do.

Sorry if I pulled you into this, however!

Yes. Very interesting.

And not only for the torpedo fired at the PT.

Reclaim the story? It got lost somewhere?

Lucas didn't supply them with a story for the sequel trilogy? He didn't have a screenwriter working on a draft for Episode VII?

And who is "we", exactly? Bob Iger? Kathleen Kennedy? Simon Kinberg? Abrams? Kasdan? All of Lucasfilm? All of Disney?

Yes -- it's disingenuous to compare the two, IMO.

Indeed. I think prequel fans are largely minding their own business and letting a wider conversation take place.

Didn't feel that way when it was only six movies, however. Even Lucas commented on the ferocity of PT/OT Internet clashes years ago:

The older [fans] are loyal to the first three films I made, and they are the ones in control of the media. The films that these people don’t like—which are the first two prequels—are fanatically adored by the under 25s. They are always at each other’s throats about it.

(From the Cannes News Conference, May 2005)

Source: http://www.popmatters.com/feature/050517-starwars-lucas/

Note: The rest of that article, from the title down, is a diatribe against Lucas, the Special Editions, and the prequels. But a good example of how much disdain was circling the Internet, even before ROTS had actually come out.

It is, yes!!!

There's a lot of disdain around.

In the article that you showed me, as linked to above, Abrams is essentially defending the film from strong criticism -- and therefore acknowledging that it exists.

Which, of course, says nothing about the quality of the film itself (which is truly subjective), but tells you something about the breadth of that criticism.

Filtering to the negative user reviews -- "Hate" -- on IMDb is edifying. Many articulate criticisms, some of which come from people who openly admit to disliking the prequels but consider them to be more satisfying, and some who even wish Lucas were back!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/reviews?filter=hate

The top one seems to have the most votes/likes. Here it is along with the author name and number of votes:

2213 out of 3415 people found the following review useful:
The Manipulation Power of Nostalgia and Mass Appeal
1/10
Author: pipbison from Houston, TX
18 December 2015

So, clearly, there are a lot of people that resonate to the basic views which that author propounds (despite the fact that, yes, TFA has a fairly high rating on IMDb overall: 8.3).

Just an example of the sort of stuff being said about the movie. Complaints about the movie, as you've just said, Mike, don't all come from disgruntled prequel fans. That's a silly strawman. Depends on one's blinders, though, I suppose.

 

There is nothing wrong with talking about which one is preferred, or which one people like more. That isn't bashing, that is discussion. Just like in the CT forum, there is a thread about why ROTJ is the least liked of the OT.

This thread is a reasonable discussion about preferences. What is ironic is that you show that you haven't actually read the thread.

If you actually read the thread all the way through, You'd see that a lot of people that are PT fans, are picking the PT and OT equally. Others who pick the PT over the OT, aren't bashing the OT in order to pick the PT. They make sure to express they like both trilogies, but, have preferences that lean towards the PT.

However, if you have read the thread all the way through, you'd notice that almost right away, a PT basher has to come into this thread, and starts with the Jar Jar sucks rhetoric, Jake LLoyd was terrible, that if it wasn't for the OT, the PT wouldn't have been successful...

This thread isn't about bashing, it's just a discussion, which for the most part has been civil and respectful with people giving pro's and con's for why they prefer one over the other, without insulting one to prop the other up. There is nothing wrong with that. What is the problem, is when someone come into the thread with no intentions of having a civil conversation, but, to only yell how much Jar Jar Sucks, and that the PT was so bad, that the only reason it did what it did was because of the OT.

So no, I still disagree with you that the PT Defenders are now the new bashers, because I don't see those PT Defenders that are down here on a consistent basis, derailing threads up in the TFA section. What I see in the TFA section is a broader cross-section of the fandom, that is made up of all different parts of the fandom not liking TFA. Not just PT Defenders...

 

Cryogenic Something interesting I noted last night while reading the Amazon reviews. Actually was quite surprised by.

Firstly I didn't expect such a bulge at the bottom of 1, 2 and three Star reviews - it is these that have stopped it being a five star film no doubt.

Secondly the film is being discussed almost as if the prequels don't exists - as if they have been ersased from the archives. At the top of course there are passing references - "far better than the cr@P that came before hand" - but I couldn't find any at the bottom that were arguing along the lines that either that it was "worse than the PT", or that - as we find here - it was Lucas's missing hand that was responsible.

Now I have not read every one, I'm sure some one will contradict me, but this film was set up and marketed as being a return to the OT, a kind a ground zero re-boot - and it is being judged against that election promise, i.e does it really match the classic trilogy? Nobody cares about the PT. The people that are angry and taking part in the most hard nosed down voting campaigns are the same people that did it with the PT.

There is no way the PT fans have become the new 'bashers'. There may be a few outliers here abouts, but in general, on the internet-o-sphere the vast majority of those with a gripe didn't like the PT either.

That's not to say there are none of course. I'm one for starters, there are others here - and occasionally on a youtube clip I'll find some people saying 'hey maybe Georges stuff was not so bad after all' but that is hardly unqualified praise.

Plus, there is an important caveat to all of this that is important. Back to the OP. Nearly all PT fans hold the OT in as high regard, and their criticisms of TFA more often than not are the same as the OT only crowd - so in a way there is no group of PT fans who have now become evil bashes responsible for all this, because they are in fact also OT fans - coming from the same place as most of the dissapointed reviewers.

I say all this as someone who already thinks TFA bombing is old, but I am still fascinated by the sociology.

Personally, with the people at the helm of this film, and all the pre release hype, I expected no significant dissent at all. JJ and Pegg together, Kasdan on board, real men in plastic suites, - NO LUCAS AT ALL - I mean, what are people complaining about?

 

Cryogenic

You said Kershner would never bad mouth a SW movie? Here is his thoughts on ROTJ from Timescape Magazine Feb 1996, page 31:

ROTJ didn't hold together. It flew off in all directions, and I felt the continuity was disruptive. It would move in one direction and then it would skip in time like they cut sections out. It didn't seem to follow s logical progression. There are jumps, cuts, jumps, cuts. They get out of situations in a miraculous way which I didn't like.

I would have never shown Darth Vader's face. When they showed an ordinary man lying there with a couple of marks on his head, I felt it was a cheat. I would not have done that. I didnt show his face so the audience had to imagine what it looked like.

 

That's not quite the same thing - that's two directors arguing technically over what to do with a movie, which incidentally happened during the making of ESB - Lucas accusing Kershner of "ruining his movie" at one point.

Also that's over ten years after the event, not just as he is about to be hired for the next one !

But point taken.

Anyhow all directors are ego-maniacs who think they know what is best.

Including Lucas !

But very few talk like they are rightful heirs to a franchise when given a job to make one of them, which is all that JJ was given, like making a Bond, or another Harry Potter. Sure bicker about the amount of jump cuts, but don't make out you are now the Savior.

 

Yeah -- the backlash is a bit surprising.

That said, the film has strong marks, overall, from critics, from the viewing public, and from several film institutions.

In our own disdain, bemusement, or even amusement, that's not a set of facts we should entirely lose sight of, in my opinion.

Well, it's half-way there; but it's not exactly the same thing, no.

JediChipKelly, that isn't really what I said. What I said -- or what I asked -- was: Could you imagine Kershner or Marquand maligning Star Wars in that broad, overt, and underhand way?

Marquand himself was also critical of TESB:


"I preferred that surface naiveté [of the original film] to the much more sophisticated way [Irvin] Kershner told his story. His style very much suited this rather more dark, metallic second section of the saga. I think this third segment has a different kind of glow and flavor to it. But, I tried to make it simple because the textures in Jedi are so very, very complex. There's a world of new people and some of them are incredibly difficult to appreciate at first meeting."

Not too staunch, right? But then there's this:


"I think the actors felt very lost and almost neglected on Empire. The special effects sort of rode through that movie in terms of the actors being left alone."

Ouch! And where have we heard that before?

Source: Starlog Magazine, June 1983
Link: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/In...ctor-of-Return-of-the-Jedi-June-1983/id/13176


So, it seems, Kershner and Marquand were not above maligning the other's work, but at least they offered forthright, critical reflections on the films, rather than blanket, tacit smearing.

 

@Cryogenic So, it seems, Kershner and Marquand were not above maligning the other's work, but at least they offered forthright, critical reflections on the films, rather than blanket, tacit smearing.

Yes that's the difference. I mean Marquand's remarks etc at least show that they got what was going on even if it did not match thier taste.

It would be like JJ saying "my job is to move away from the dark fall of the PT, and back to the glow of ROTJ, which in turn reflected a cyclical return to the naivete of the opening, after all this is a sequel - then some of the dark metallic textures of Empire or Return of the Sith could return",
instead of "maybe we could have Jar Jars bones in the desert."

 

In fairness to Abrams, perhaps we have become a bit more oblique in some of our mannerisms and expressions of disapproval in the 21st Century? Thanks, Internet!

I still wish, however, that Abrams could unequivocally denounce the prequels and reveal his true feelings in an intellectually upfront, non-partisan fashion, rather than jabbing at them through a litany of calculated taunts and dodges enmeshed within the facade of a "I'm-one-of-you", nostalgia-sodden, fast-talking, Woody-Allen-lite collegiate filmmaker nerd.

Kershner and Marquand = Darth Vader
J.J. Abrams = Kylo Ren

 

Again Lucas wore a shirt 'Han shot first's on the set of Indy 4 so that was a playful jab at the OOT fans. Lucas made statements like, "Sorry I have you a half completed movie in 1977!" referring to his updates for the SE.

No doubt JJ was doing the same with the PT crowd, but he readily admit his kids like the PT and he couldn't understand why Anakin was their favorite character as he was a Luke guy?

Then Lucas shot back and said he didn't do Episode 7 cause he didn't want to make movie for the fans (I can't remember the exact quote).

In the end, I think PT fans should be happy with JJ as I believe Snoke is Darth Plaguis. They play the opera music from Episode 3 whenever he is on screen. Hint?

Kylo Ren mentions bringing back clones and Ewan McGregor voiced a part talking to Rey.

Now of course they played up the practical effects angle, but thats marketing 101. They felt a part of base like me was alienated and they had to get us back.

Let's put this way I saw TFA in the theater more then all the PT movies together, but that's more cause ioved the movie rather then if they used CGI.

 

Cryogenic Yes this is true. Back then you sought out information in specialist magazines, today whatever you say eveybody will hear / read instantly and such is the speed and mass of response you can find yourself literally with the world turning up at your back door with pitchforks within minutes.

It creates a paradox of false humility - which in itself creates conspiracy theories and nonesense, and hate probably no less intense than if the person was just open and forthright in their views.

In a way because of his more forthrightness, I can take TFA at face value according to what Simon Pegg has talked about, and respond to it more 'cleanly', whereas with JJ I am still not sure where he was coming from. I know it is more from a place like Kershner or Marquand - because Pegg was there as the resident encyclopedic geek - the 'convention fan' , wheres JJ was the "it's a job" director, though I know of course he was passionate about Star Wars as a fan.

More talk - robust or otherwise - about directing and movie making would have been far more interesting than addressing the stupid fan war issues.

JediChipKelly my issues with TFA are not really to do with PT content or not in the film, or all the pre film talk - or people taking pot shots at each other. With others it may be. As said I'm in agreement with the OT fans who are not that keen on it, and just a basic love for Lucas's style and attention to detail which I miss - Whatever - I think we maybe are derailing this thread everybody!