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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Why did the empire stop using clones?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheNewEmpire, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    George mentions it on the AOTC DVD commentary.
     
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  2. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2012
    What did TCW have that suggested Stormtroopers weren't Clones?

    The visual continuity between armors is a strong connection between the two, but a small gag/callback shouldn't be taken so literally. There was an old magazine tie-in from the 70s that stated Stormtroopers were clones, but a lot has been subject to change in continuity in between the original films. Also, the origin of that information is dubious. But just to demonstrate how much the 'clone' concept changed over time, Empire Strikes Back was going to feature a bunch of clone Landos instead of soldiers. I'll have to check back and see if I can find any original references to Stormtroopers being clones.
     
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  3. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Jango was dead.
     
  4. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    No matter what Obi-Wan says, they are often shown to be terrible shots. It makes sense on the Death Star because they were ordered to miss. But how do you explain how incompetent they fight against a bunch of teddy bears? And according to the Emperor those on Endor were supposed to be elite troops. Sorry, the Vietnam comparison doesn't work. The Vietcong also had modern guns, landmines etc. What do the Ewoks have besides wooden arrows and stones? But the stormtroopers failed miserably against them. I don't see them fight nearly as professionally as the prequel clone troopers. So yes, it's perfectly logical to assume that most OT stormtroopers are not clones.
     
  5. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    In TCW, the clone troopers are supposed to be the good guys, the ones the audience (largely made of children) is supposed to root for. That's when Lucasfilm started moving away from the idea of stormtroopers being clones and instead moved to the idea that they are conscripts or volunteers.

    And with George, even a small gag can be important. I think its pretty clear that in 2002 he intended the clone troopers to be the future stormtroopers. Few years later, for whatever reason, he (as usual) changed his mind.

    The fact that the Empire is using clones was also mentioned in some EU material back around the time of the AOTC. To explain the discrepancies when some stormtroopers are obviously not clones of Jango, they came up with the explanation that the Empire is using mixture of clones and volunteers/conscripts, which works perfectly IMO. Then they changed their minds again...

    People should really watch ROTJ more carefully. The stormtroopers are actually winning the battle until Chewie takes over the AT-ST. And the Rebels manage to get inside the bunker only because of Han's trickery. Not to mention, the Ewok casualties were (according to the EU) extreme. And even from what we see in the movie, its supposed to be at least several hundred Ewoks attacking few dozen Imperial troops.
     
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  6. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2012
    That seems like more of a side effect of the movies not being able to focus on the clones as much. Though instead of them being faceless soldiers, we see them without their helmets on in Revenge of the Sith and given individual names. The dynamic between their Jedi superiors is the same as in the Clone Wars (i.e. Commander Cody). This is played up for dramatic effect when they're suddenly forced to turn on their former friends and commit acts of evil. While The Clone Wars takes liberties with what's shown in the movies, the treatment of clones is perfectly in line with what we're shown in the movies. It even tries to explain how they lost their moral compass by having subliminal programming to serve Palpatine.

    I think at the time of the originals, there was no consensus yet as to whether they were clones or not. The source of Star Wars Official Poster Monthly 4 is more well known now for being a licensed publication referring to clones in 1978, but it's still a third party source and no better than the EU. Earlier in 1977, Lucas made a statement that there were female Stormtroopers, meaning they couldn't have been clones at that point in time. AOTC or ROTS sources should be more definitive.
     
  7. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    2004 was probably when he decided they weren't all clones. Hence his decision not to have Temuera Morrison dub all the stormtroopers' voices along with Boba Fett's.

    The sound of the stormtrooper hitting his head doesn't really have anything to do with the question one way or the other. Maybe Lucas just thought it was funny. For all we know the added sound may have originated with someone like Matthew Wood, just like the "Wesa free!" during the shot of Naboo in ROTJ.
     
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  8. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 1, 2012
    FWIW Lucas really originally intended the OT stormtroopers to be all clones (see the 1978 article below). The Legends EU messed that up and resolved this by taking the stance that the OT stormtroopers were a combination of conscripts and clones from various hosts. Then in the Disney EU, starting with Rebels, the stormtroopers became all conscripts.

    A terrible decision, IMO--I much prefer them to be clones. Much more fantasy that way; I don't find any big inherent difference between the evil villain creating his terror troops of faceless nobodies by robots on an assembly line, cloning, and/or for that matter conjuring them out of mud (like in the movie version of Lord of the Rings) or whatever. Conscripts, even in a fantasy sci-fi story, is a different matter to me. Anyway...

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    But in the deleted Biggs scenes Luke worries about "letting the Empire draft" him. It would seem that the question of clones vs. not-clones is as old as SW itself.
     
  10. RolandofGilead

    RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2001
    I never felt like Luke getting "drafted" or joining the academy was going to be his first step into being a Stormtrooper. I always thought it meant becoming an officer, or pilot. One of the thousands of Imperial Officers, Death Star Commanders, and such that you see without face masks throughout the Empire.

    But again, that's just my own personal opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The newcanon has there be some clonetroopers still in service as of ANH - but since these are the survivors of the last ones produced in the Clone Wars era, there aren't many.
     
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  12. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2012
    I mentioned this above. I agree that it makes more canonical sense for them to be clones, but this article still came from a third party, making it only as trustworthy as other EU sources. Lucas putting out an official statement that some Stormtroopers were female contradicted this. Basically, OT sources are irrelevant because the plot point wasn't even close to being finalized. The only thing that matters is the intent at the time of Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith.

    I agree, we already see the Imperial Officer positions spring up at the end of Revenge of the Sith. The intent was to show them during wartime as well (with an appearance from Captain Needa no less), but that never made it to film. At least the Clone Wars filled in the gaps there to show that recruited talent was needed, as well as something that carried over to the Empire.
     
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  13. libraryMom1

    libraryMom1 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2019
    I would argue that using a conscripted army helps to consolidate power much more efficiently than a clone army. Picture a clone army trying to maintain order in the empire. The soldiers would be bred to be loyal but the people would learn to hate the military. Think of Americans’ hostility to British soldiers in the years leading to the American revolution.

    Now picture a conscripted army. The citizens see “one of their own” in the soldiers. Not literally but they seem more real. This leads to greater buy in on the part of the people.

    You can also look at the history of conscription. It first became widely used by Napoleon in France after the French Revolution and it led to one of the greatest armies ever not to mention the high morale.

    You may say that an army just as powerful could be developed with clones. While that is true, think of all the fit and able individuals that are now excluded from the military because they are not clones. Suddenly their incentive to bring their skills to other paramilitary organizations (Rebel Alliance, crime syndicates, etc.) raises further weakening the grip of the empire.
     
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  14. RolandofGilead

    RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2001
    Except the fit and able could join the Imperial Academy and become commaders, pilots, or officers. Leave the Stormtrooper ranks for the nameless, faceless clones who were literally bred for warfare since birth.
     
  15. libraryMom1

    libraryMom1 Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 6, 2019
    This is exactly what leads to resentment of the military on the part of the people of the empire. Not to mention it is much easier psychologically speaking to kill clones than real people. It is just much more effective from a political standpoint to use conscription
     
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  16. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    They probably didn't want to repeat themselves.
     
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  17. Bosozoku27

    Bosozoku27 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2017
    This is a very interesting question...

    Perhaps the Kaminoans were somehow bound/devoted to serving the Jedi order? The only reason I thought of this was because it was a "Jedi", Sifo Dyas (or the illusion of him) that directed the cloning of Jango Fett. Why a Jedi, and not any random mysterious entrepreneur or official of the Republic?
     
  18. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Or you use both.

    It makes the most sense to use both volunteers/conscripts and clones. With the added fact that you have multiple cloning facilities spread across the galaxy and you clone several different templates (perhaps chosen from the best volunteer soldiers). This way you eliminate all the weaknesses of both systems and achieve the greatest numbers of manpower.
     
  19. TeridaxXD001

    TeridaxXD001 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2017
    I think each canon (original EU/Legends and Disney) gave their own reasons.

    I do recall that, toward the end of TCW series, it was mentioned that Jango Fett's DNA was being "stretched thin" the more clones they made, resulting in non-identical clones, such as the Bad Batch. I'd guess that later, you'd get clones that were totally inferior to the rest, and perhaps eventually you'd be unable to make a functioning human body.

    Though personally, I think Disney's decision to ignore the clones at first may have something to do with anti-prequel sentiment. They've obviously learned since then that Clone Wars has a huge fan base, with all the references on Rebels and now its un-cancellation.