CT Why didn't Luke attempt to kill the Emperor before electrocuting him?

Luke's intention was to kill Sheev with his first swing of the saber. Vader used his own saber to protect his master. That's the only interpretation of the action that matches up with all the dialog and character motivations that led up to this point. The way it was filmed was a little awkward, admittedly, but claiming that Luke was trying to save the Emperor from Vader makes no sense within the story. Not without all kinds of mental gymnastics that are far too convoluted, especially since the simple and obvious interpretation makes for such a great story.

 

First off, Lucas was not the originator of the concept of transferring a conscious into another body. That was created for the Legends EU and adapted into the ST. There is no basis for it in the films Lucas made.

Second, as noted, the blades connecting as they do was an error that was overlooked. Much like the Stormtrooper smacking his head in ANH. Stuff like that happened frequently in the old days.

Third, in regards to knowing the motivations of the Sith, once again we go to the source.

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

"Palpatine rather hoped that Anakin was going to leave Obi-Wan during the kidnapping, but Anakin is an honorable man and Obi-Wan is his greatest friend, so Anakin insists that he bring him along."

--Ian McDiarmid, Star Wars Insider #82.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

--George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.

"At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

Vader's redemption centers around giving up his selfish ways and doing the right thing. It's building in him, which is what Luke senses.

 

The answer to first problem is in the novelization:

Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied
his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic
answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down—then, when
Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the
impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat…but Luke met the riposte and stepped
back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.
Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost,
he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally.
There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor
now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first—training by both Vader and
Palpatine—before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the
galaxy.
So Vader had to shephered the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing
damage in the wrong places—or in the right places prematurely.

As to the second question, Luke's biggest enemy isn't Vader or Palpatine...it's his own fears, which Palps is deliberately manipulating (as Ben warned). Luke wants to fight back in fear, presumably to save his friends, but at the same time, he knows that Palpatine wants him to strike him down in anger...he just doesn't know why. All he knows is he's running out of options and his friends are dying, but Palpatine has a trick up his sleeve. Vader takes this a step further and threatens Leia. Luke, who up until now still wants to save his father, finally succumbs to his fear and anger and unloads on Vader.

But the biggest difference between Luke and Vader was this:

"He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He
felt drawn.
"Of his own free will," the Emperor assured him. It must be of his own free
will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be
seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave. Luke Skywalker knew
these things, and still he circled the black fire, like a cat. Destinies could never be
read with absolute certainty—but Skywalker would come, that was clear. "I have
foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing." Compassion had always
been the weak belly of the Jedi, and forever would be. It was the ultimate
vulnerability. The Emperor had none. "The boy will come to you, and you will
then bring him before me."
Vader bowed low. "As you wish."

Luke fell to the Dark Side, but hadn't chosen it like his father. Luke was still able to pull back despite everything he faced...which showed Vader (Mr. "It's too late for me now") that it was never too late to turn back from the Dark Side. Just as Luke chose to sacrifice himself for his friends, Vader chose to sacrifice himself for his children (This was the "threat" that they posed to him - They could restore his humanity)


Luke's body slowed, wilted, finally crumpled under the hideous barrage. He
stopped moving altogether. At last, he appeared totally lifeless. The Emperor
hissed maliciously.
At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning
Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still
these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated
act—the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame
and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely
and sightlessly on his will—the will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.

 

But does Luke have any way to really save his friends by attacking?
The trap has been sprung, the fleet is attacked and the DS2 is blowing up ships, Han, Leia and the rest are walking into a trap on Endor. Could he kill Vader and Palpatine and then fight his way through the DS2 and find the control room and make them stop? Not very likely.
And I think Luke knows this, there is no point in fighting and he is smart enough to know that when the emperor urges him to take his weapon and attack, he really should not.

All is lost. Palpatine is using the futility approach, try to make Luke loose all hope and strike back in anger.
Not that this will accomplish anything, it is just lashing out.
Sort of like a person that hits his head on a low beam and yells out in pain and anger and then hits the beam with their hand. Does that help? Not really, they just hurt their hand in addition to their head.
It is just reacting in anger.

When Luke has lost control and letting his hate and anger flow, he isn't thinking. He has no plan, he lets those negative emotions fuel his actions. When he calms down, then he can start to think. He tries again to reason with Vader and then he hides. Not much of plan there, he can not hide forever nor has he any means to escape.

Vader tries to get him to give up, that his friends will spared if he agrees to serve the Emperor. But that was Vader saying that. Palpatine pretty much said, "turn and become my slave."

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Luke IS smart...but he still needs to control his emotions, which is demonstrated several times in Palp's chambers. It's not until he throws down his lightsaber that he finally chooses not to fight at all.

 

Yet, that is why he takes up his Lightsaber. He's so fearful and angry at what's going on, that he thinks that is his only option, until Palpatine points out that's what he wants. Vader himself killed many in the Temple and on Mustafar in order to achieve his goals. Later on, Luke fights his way to Grogru without being tempted by the dark side. Such is the power of the Force and the struggle with the dark side.

 

This was a very interesting thread to read...

 

I enjoyed reading through all of this thread as well. In revisiting ROTJ, even after all these years with the OT, i always look through the concept art as well as read these boards for more of an understanding how these films are made and why they convey to us their meaning. I'm this case, I never liked watching when Luke throws down his lightsaber, I understand the meaning and of course it worked its potential by allowing Anakin to return, but the scene always leaves me with a twisted gut knowing he is defenseless.
It was good to read the novel (almost done) and see this part take place by having Luke reflect some of the lightning as if he prepared for it, only to not be able to withstand the full power of the Emperor. I believe showing this in the movie would have strengthened Luke and made the scene more powerful that he couldn't stop the bolts. It also doesn't have Luke attacking in anger as he would still be defenseless.

 

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I say kudos to the the OP (Probably long gone) for thinking for himself and not just going along with 'because the movie says killing the bad guy would make him bad' when PT Jedi do it all the time,

so props dude...wherever you are.

 

You missed the part where Auggie said this...

Obi-Wan didn't use the dark side to kill Maul, back when he was dead. Anakin did use the dark side when he killed Dooku. Luke can only defeat his father using the dark side. He cannot destroy either Sith Lord without using the dark side. He won't be able to until at least five years later, once he is stronger of mind. It's not difficult to understand.

 

you assume that when I said

I only meant about killing Sith lords.

oh I get the intent of the scene/idea. And for the most part it works...keys words most part.

 

What doesn’t work for you?

 

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

But more likely bolts of lightning surprised Luke.

 

It seems the prequels are saying the Jedi are about balance in the Force. They aren’t only using the light side of the Force. But the Jedi also understand how overwhelming corruptive the dark side is. So they have very structured rules and training on how they use the Force. If they are aggressive with the use of the Force it is for defense.

Obi-Wan doesn’t really have a choice with Maul. It’s kill or be killed in that moment. Anakin neutralized Dooku as a threat. Seems at that point his training dictates no further aggression towards Dooku.

Mace Windu messes up when he correctly recognized a secret Sith Lord as the sitting chancellor of the galaxy was too dangerous to be alive. There could be no legal recourse against him. He’d corrupted and taken control of the government system that seemed setup in part to make sure the Sith never returned to power. The Jedi and the Republic were unwittingly serving the Sith and created an Sith Empire.

And then Mace wants to break the rule when to Anakin it appeared that as a threat Palpatine was neutralized.

What would have happened if Luke hadn’t tossed his lightsaber?

That is a good surprised when the Emperor shoots lightening.

 

Emperor is like, “Good! Good! He can’t deflect it back on me with no saber!”

 

Just imagine if Luke had Vader’s lightsaber too!!!

 

Bravo! Magnifico! Well said!

 

The Emperor is just some old man to Luke, he had no idea he was about to be hit with force lighting

 

Agreed that the lightning caught Luke by surprise, but he had at least a faint inkling that Palps was not just some old man. Yoda warned Luke not to underestimate his power, and Luke saw how easily his cuffs were released by a twitch of his finger.

 

Palpatine has a flashback of Dooku being beheaded by Anakin with two sabers.

“This is not going to end well..”