CT Why do people blame Vader for destroying Alderaan?

Thanks to everyone who responded!

 

Personally I think we see a shift within the films, in ANH were still seeing a version of the Empire that is clinging onto the last vestiges of the Republic, a society in which someone like Leia can openly function as if not an open military opponent at least as a political rival without just being executed on the spot. In this society it makes sense that the Emperors right to rule is seen at part of the political setup and Vader not having political office or military rank is not someone who shows power so openly hence officers being rather more dismissive of him besides of course Tarkin who is likely much more up on the reality of the situation.

When the senate is dismissed though that obviously seems a shift away from more of a system like the Roman principate to an absolute monarchy and in this situation Vader can show much more open power, we see him leading a massive fleet in ESB with absolute authority and nobody but the Emperor shows him anything but deference from that point onwards.

In film making terms Lucas's intension was probably that he could have his cake and eat it, in ANH this situation allowed Tarkin to be the main badguy who could be killed off in that film but it also allowed him to then show the shift in power that was happening.

As far as Vader's role in Alderaan goes in the political setup that's established in ESB/ROTJ the ultimate blame really rests with the Emperor, perhaps Tarkin may have chosen Alderaan himself(although may just be boasting to Leia who he obviously has a history of conflict with) but the Emperor would surely have given him the authority to act in such a fashion as a show of force? Vader of course went along with it though.

 

I always saw Vader as being complicit in genocide (so guilty). In ANH (apologies if this has been said before) Vader is there as Tarkin's lacky. The other generals and big wigs don't like him cos he's all mystical and junk. He could have stopped Tarkin, but I don't think he wanted to. He seems totally into the idea. So yeah, GUILTY YOUR HONOUR!

 

I also don't think Vader is to blame...I mean, he isn't BLAMELESS of course, but its mostly on Tarkin. I do, however, think that Leia blames Vader the most, especially after she finds out he is her biological father. Its just an extra burn that way.

I also think we will find out more about the chain of command in Rogue One, so that will be interesting.

 

Perhaps, but in ROTJ we see Vader's position shift back into a vague state from a near second in command state in TESB. Perhaps he was demoted for failing to capture Luke and placed back into an odd job agent? Jerrprid was quite frank with Vader about the emperor not giving him enough men to finish the Death Star on time, much like the officers in ANH were. In a deleted scene he barred Vader's admittance to see the emperor and was quite smug and pleased with himself about it until Vader starts to choke him, the whole scene is similar to Motti in ANH. Then the royal guards are about to attack Vader when Jerrprid explains he was just following the emperor's orders, then Vader releases him and walks off like a scolded kid. As Leia pointed out, their is always someone holding Vader's leash such as Tarkin and Palps. For both ANH and ROTJ it seems Vader is a outside man looking in with the Empire. Only in TESB does he seem to have such extreme power which is reduced again by ROTJ. Then again Lucas himself admits he isn't keen on continuity as he likes to have his cake and eat it too. While I do believe Vader is complicit and gulity, however, Tarkin and the empire as a whole are much more to blame. Even if Vader disagreed with Tarkin, which maybe "Anakin" deep down did, he probably did not have the power or authority to stop it, Tarkin was in command, not Vader. Even afterwards when they let the MF escape, Tarkin threatens Vader that his plan better work. I think Vader was Palps right hand man but not even being close to second in command, at least not officially or in all matters, mainly just the force and darkside affairs.

 

We do see Vader's relationship with the Emperor potentially reconned a bit although you could argue his talkof ruling the Galaxy with Luke was misdirection to try and get him to turn. The Emperors presence does of course shift Vaders role in the film considerably as well. In terms of the Imp officers though I cannot agree about Jerjerrod, he's not at all like say Motti in ANH and indeed comes across as the most scared and deferential of all the Imp officers.

 

According to the Brian Daley radio drama Vader insisted that Tarkin first contacted the Emperor before seriously considering the destruction of Alderaan.

According to Leia, Tarkin was "holding Vader's leash" so he was apparently not in the position to interfere with Tarkin's plan who - no matter which way we turn that - is the one ultimately responsible for the destruction of Alderaan, because it was a) his idea and b) him giving the order.

Now, according to the 1977 "Lucas Notes" Alderaan was the 'brain' of the Alliance. The Imperials suspected as much but didn't have sufficient evidence. While technically not a legitimate military civil war target, it probably turned out to have been the other one as the Alliance's center of intelligence, in hindsight (from a twisted point of view).

 

But without proof (or sufficient evidence) then it would still be a war crime to blow up the planet. If there was actual definitive proof that Alderaan (as in the planet and it's populace) were not in fact neutral as they claimed to be and were participating in the conflict on the Rebel side (even in an intelligence role) that would make it a legitimate target. But Leia (and her crew) running stolen info only ''proves'' she herself has Rebel sympathies, and isn't enough to put Alderaan as a whole in the 'legitimate military target' camp.

Not that Tarkin gives a crap about any of that of course.

 

It's a war crime to blow up the planet, even if it is the brain of the Alliance. Supporting the rebellion in no way makes the entire planet and its population a legitimate military target.

 

What?? I have a very hard time buying Palps would reprimand Vader with a simple slap on the wrist if he were to kill Tarkin. Other Imperial goons or subordinates were one thing but Tarkin commanded the utmost respect of the Emperor. I mean by the time of ANH Tarkin was basically the head of the entire Imperial army while Palps focused more on his personal dark side research and ways to consolidate more power. Palps obviously had extreme respect and confidence in Tarkin, perhaps more than he even did in Vader.

I have a feeling Vader would have a lot of explaining to do if he were to report to Palps that Tarkin had been disposed of. Vader understood to respect Palps decision to give Tarkin absolute control. Unless he sensed an actual political coupe going on, Vader would have no recourse to act out on Tarkin. Even then Vader would likely key Palps to his suspicions so that Palps was aware and they would deal with such a grave situation together.

 

Even if he disagreed with blowing up Alderaan, he's not going to intervene or say anything. He's a major Imperial figure. He can't show any weakness.

 

CT-867-5309 wrote

It's a war crime to blow up the planet, even if it is the brain of the Alliance. Supporting the rebellion in no way makes the entire planet and its population a legitimate military target.

The Imperial Forces obviously felt differently. Had anybody dared to openly support the Alliance after Yavin IV had been destroyed, I'm sure the Death Star would have visited this particular system next (and I don't even want to imagine what would have happened had the Alliance been defeated at the Battle of Endor).

 

The EU authors did imagine what would have happened - having the Empire have a couple of armadas set to move in on Mon Cala and Chandrila (Ackbar & Mon Mothma's home planets) and blockade them until the Death Star 2's hyperdrive is ready to take it there.

This seems to have made it into the newcanon - with a reference in the Journey To The Force Awakens book Moving Target: A Princess Leia Adventure (prequel to ROTJ).

 

Vader's related to the Emperor as his apprentice in that sad-devotion religion they have. Sending him to DS1 is like the pope sending a bishop. He's just Palpy's eyes with a warning (he gets really nasty when he gets angry). He's a nuisance among the officers because he's untouchable yet he may have troops at his disposal, but at the same time he respects the ranks.

He's a priest not an officer in the same way as the Jedi were guardians of peace, not warriors.

 

I always saw the Death Star is an analogue for nuclear weapons. The Death Star was intended to be used, like, twice and then solely as an intimidation weapon afterwards. The purpose of the Tarkin Doctrine was "fear of force, not force itself." As such, if the Death Star annihilated two or three worlds with lots of coverage, the Empire could park it in front of troublesome planets to get the resources they required. The Death Stars were not intended to, ya know, obliterate dozens of planets. That would have been stupid and bad for the Imperial economy. I mean, in terms of morality, it's an appalling, horrifying crime to do any of this, but I'm trying to explain the Imperial mindset. Palpatine, being the incarnation of a greedy orange lantern that he was, wanted the Death Stars to satisfy his limitless ego. The Empire's Moffs and admirals wanted them to stabilize the galaxy, in their minds.

However, Thrawn and Palpatine may have wanted the Death Stars to destroy the Yuuzhan Vong invasion force upon its arrival. But that's up to you if you accept the old EU or not. I'd say Thrawn would have preferred the massive military buildup to prepare for the invasion, and Palpatine would have wanted it out of cowardice.

 

Once again, thank you to all who responded here.

 

Vader is not completely innocent in the matter, but neither does he deserve all the blame. It was Tarkin who gave the order to destroy Alderaan. Therefore, in my opinion, the blame for that unspeakable tragedy rests squarely on Tarkin's shoulders.

 

The decision to destroy Alderaan was Tarkin's and Tarkin's alone. Vader had tortured Leia and gotten nowhere, so Tarkin takes over and suggests Leia would respond to an alternative form of persuasion. Tarkin orders that they set course for Alderaan and it's Tarkin who, after Leia gives up Dantooine, goes ahead and orders the destruction of Alderaan. Vader is present but at no time agrees or disagrees with Tarkin, though I can't see him defending Tarkin if Palpatine disapproved of Tarkin's actions.

 

If Sheev disapproved, Vader probably would have been the hitman sent to accept Tarkin's apology, IYKWIM.

 

Vader also voiced his displeasure with the DS in R1:

Krennic finished: “I deserve an audience to make certain he understands its remarkable potential.”
The terrible mask looked down upon Krennic. The voice spoke. “Its power to create problems has certainly been confirmed. A city destroyed. An Imperial facility openly attacked.” A swift step forward and to Krennic’s side, like a hunter circling his prey.
An Imperial facility openly attacked. Vader blamed Krennic for the strike on Eadu. Was this, then, the opportunity Krennic had sought? The chance to reveal Tarkin’s error so soon?
“It was Governor Tarkin that suggested the test,” he began.

 

Funny..... Someone in another thread just abscribed Tarkin's "You may fire when ready" line to Vader....Dude can't catch a break, lol.

 

I'm not sure who it was exactly, could be either Bast or Motti who were present.

 

Because Vader refused to stop Tarkin from destroying Alderaan. I am sure Vader could have convinced Tarkin not to destroy the planet, but he stood by and watched. Vader also receives a lot of the blame because Tarkin died a day or two later. Just as Palpatine said Vader was the chosen one to be responsible for the destruction of the Death Star, so too is he to take a lot of the blame for Alderaan's destruction.

 

In the real world If something is legal under the laws of war as they exist at the time, then it is not a war crime, despite any retconning fifty years later.

As for Alderaan, it would have been perfectly legal for Tarkin to send down troops and arrest Bail Organa as he was demonstratably a traitor to the Empire.

 

I hate to say it because I do like Leia, but blaming Vader could be simple politics: really no one else lived to tell the tale of what really happened to Alderaan but Leia and Vader (two living survivor eye witnesses). Blaming someone who lived, who could be declared as the greatest enemy, well it was perfect motivaton for the Rebel Alliance. Tarkin was already dead, he couldn't act as the ultimate enemy that binds the Alliance together...

And I hate to say it because I do love Leia... but she is her father's daughter in many many ways, and Anakin Skywalker was never the forgiving type or the rational one when revenge was involved. I think Leia did believe that Vader was involved in the destruction, she never searched for evidence that would show otherwise...even though she knew that Tarkin was in charge there.

I think Vader never bothered to try to prove his relative innocense either: he hated himself too much for that, it did not matter if he wad guilty of murdering thousands or millions of billions.

Frankly Vader's trying to stop Tarkin would be way out of character for a Sith Lord... he was not a double agent.