Why do people hate that Fireplace scene so much?

I posted this elsewhere- but I guess it's time it came into this discussion thread because you need to understand EXACTLY why the fireplace scene is so UNCOMFORTABLE to watch.

GL loves picking on themes and things from literature- you need to look at the scenes on Naboo as following in Milton's "Paradise Lost".....

First thing Naboo is much like Paradise. Especially for Anakin- he's remembered it every day since a child because it's a place of perfection for him-it's green, lots of water, a place HE saved from destruction, SHE is the woman he saved. The Meadow is a perfect place- rushing water (water is purifying- cleansing)- nice herbovour animals. Padme and Anakin have sweet innocent frolicking fun in this lovely, perfect meadow. (Yes there is the scary political conversation- but that's beside the point- it actually intrigues Padme to no end.) Anakin appears to have no lust in his heart here at all -just teasing innocent fun...

Next scene- fruit scene---Anakin says "Master Obi-Wan would be very grumpy if he saw me doing this." Literally he's meaning playing with the fruit- both Padme and Anakin are still sweet and innocent as he's playing with the fruit slices- however after she takes the bite- the whole nature of the 2 characters change dramatically. Their innocence is lost...

Symbolically the pear is the "FORBIDDEN FRUIT." And what does Padme do? He slices it for her- she takes a bite. By her biting into it- she has acknowledged that there is something beyond just mild flirtation between them both and that for all that she may take a while to give in, she has given in to Anakin's advances, and has already decided to break the rules.

It is interesting also because right after that scene- you have that Anakin is going full force into seduction/ opening his heart for her to stomp on it mode. Padme also desperately wants to jump Anakin's bones- she's even wearing a black revealing dress. In these films outfit colors are highly symbolic. Black always represents conflict with the dark side which is something we haven't seen on a heroine in the series until now - with Anakin and she both all in black or dark clothing, it just heightens the sense of Forbiddenness in the scene.

Anakin behaves just like Adam when he learns of lust of the body after he bites of the forbidden fruit in the Bible (or Milton's Paradise Lost.) However it takes Anakin going through personal hell before she finally gives in completely. This all helps explain Anakin's kind of lost look when Padme finally tells him she Loves him deeply. He's been lead to believe that she did has the strength to deny her feeling, but if fact she cannot.

As for the dialogue in the scene- you have to watch it/ listen to it several times. The more you watch it, the dialogue is intoxicating- I don't know how to explain it. It's mostly there to say what's going on in Anakin's head- but the main thing's to watch in the scene are the 2 actors body language. The way they subtly move completely counteredicts what each is saying.

Natalies performance in the scene is subtle. You watch her on the couch, she's playing the proper "lady" looking away, not appearing interested, looking back at him, then gazing longing looks at his lips. She's in complete conflict within herself. When she finally gets up and he walks away she nearly takes a step towards him and has this brief "What, you're leaving?" look on her face. And in all the scenes afterwards, she is now pursuing him.

Hayden's delivery is jolting because he delivers it in Vader's very monotone way. The words themselves though, are wonderfully heartfelt. That final defeated look he gives Padme is brilliant. You know he really wants to shout "YES I can live that lie, for you..." but he fully believes she won't give in.

Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden- Padme and Anakin have horrific fates ahead of them.

 

right on Undomiel

Anakin acts alot like Romeo...Just read the play and you'll see!

 

It very much throws back to the older courtly style of romance. Not giving in to their desires is every bit as painful as the thought of the consequences that would befall them if they did give in.

It was uncomfortable the first time I watched it, not because I thought it was bad but because being the modern person that I am I am just not accostamced to seeing some one lay their heart on the line in such a manner in a relationship that is love, pure and simple. No jokes, remarks or crude jokes, just pure emotion on the line.

I am not under 20, Ha I wish, nor am I overly sentimental. Many would say I am a cynic. I find most Harlequin romances nauseating and stupid as they all follow the same damn formula.. I loved Han/Leia in the OT, and I gag at many Halmark cards.

Most romance novels do not reflect real life, and this movie is not a reflection of life as many of us know it today in the 21rst century. To understand the scene we need to see it through the eyes of the characters, not our own jaded eyes. With my life experience it would not work were it me there. But it is NOT me, it is someone in a different time and different place.. IT does Work..

 

I've posted this elsewhere on this board, but I think it's very appropriate that I post it here again.

I think that the big reason why the fireplace scene doesn't work is that we the audience don't get very much confirmation that we're supposed to feel weird and uncomfortable watching it. The only cue we get is Padme squirming in her seat.

Anakin's no-holds-barred approach to getting Padme to give in to him would have been much easier to swallow had GL injected something to defuse the moment, like Padme replying "Give me a break! Nobody talks like that!"

Sure, it would have added humor in a moment that wasn't really supposed to be funny, but at least we'd get a clue that there was something a little off about Anakin's intense pursuit.

As it is, the fireplace scene and other Naboo sequences seem to take themselves way too seriously. They're bold strokes, where more subtle strokes spread throughout the action of the film would have been more appropriate.

 

The thing is, humor wouldn't have worked in the scene. The drama and tension of the scene leads up to the drama that unfolds on Tatooine. It helps explain Anakin's hopeless feelings. With Padme having rejected him, then his mother dying, his pain is magnified which helps lead him towards his path of destruction. The fireplace scene makes you wonder, if Padme had relented at that point, and given in to him, which she clearly wanted to do, would they have ever gone to Tatooine? Would Anakin have given in to the Dark Side?

The scene is critical for that reason. It is the turning point for Anakin. And when Padme rejects him, sees the hurt in him, she tries to make up for it. Unfortunately, Anakin has unconciously already chosen the path he's going to take, the path of the Dark Side.

 

Because it is on Naboo.

And Naboo shouldnt have been in AOTC.

 

PLJ,

I think he still would have gone to Tatooine, because this is his mother, and irregardless he still has that anger problem, but it is right after that when he gives in that she suddenly switches roles.

It was her idea to go along with him to Tatooine. So in essense as soon as he agrees to stop chasing her, she jumps ship and starts chasing him.

But I agree it is quite clear that her feelings do not match her words, and she seems almost disapointed that he relented so easy, like she was trying to convince herself as much as him.

 

Kenobikenobi,

"Knights that say, NEE!" I've always wanted to make an EverQuest guild with that title.

 

It still begs questioning, if Padme had relented, and Anakin knew she loved him, could he have just accepted his mother's death, knowing that Padme loved him, and that all hope was not gone for him?

Well unfortunately, we'll never know....

 

This thread is taking a rather odd tac. It reminds me of another post (boy, what a doozy that one was) I saw elsewhere. The gentlemen (term used loosely) who posted it, blamed Anakin's turn to the dark side, entirely on the women in the story. Had Shmi just finished "I love you," before she died. Had Padme just did the wild thang with Anakin so the poor fella wouldn't get the blue balls (give me a break). Then he proceeded to say the problem with Anakin and AotC in general are the "Bii...atches." Yes, this is the type of lovely comedy we ladies have to endure. The last guy that called me a "Bii..atch" regretted it. Good thing the kid has the anonymity of the internet. I doubt seriously he'd call me that to my face. (BTW, The last guy who called me that was my husband. Mwahahaha. Like the Sith, we ladies have infinite patience and memory. )

"These five words in my head, scream, "ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?!" -- Nickelback, How You Remind Me

-Undomiel

 

Women could have something to do with Anakin's fall, but you could argue the same about men. Okay sure marrying Padme didn't help and neither did Shmi's death, but Anakin is one confused guy.

Obi-Wan is telling him to play by the rules, he saw Qui-Gon question the rules and not to mention Palpatine whispering sweet nothings in his ear about how good he is, but how much better he will be.

 

Palpy is just pointing out the obvious. Anakin already knows he's good. Palpy takes advantage of the guy's youth and uses it for evil purposes. Several of his friends also told him he was good but didn't try to turn him to evil and in fact, tried to get him to resist it. Many of those were FEMALE. REMEMBER?

Some SW fans have an even shorter memory span than mine and that's saying alot.

"These five words in my head, scream, "ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?!" -- Nickelback, How You Remind Me

 

Actually I think he knew she cared, even loved, she just wouldn't allow it to procede.

She is not responsible for his downfall, he made those choices all on his own, but she is defnitely not an inocent victim as she jumped into this relationship feet first, eyes wide shut. She more than anyone knew what he was capable of, and yet decided she coudnt' deny her feelings anymore. What did it get her, she lost her husband her children and most of what she cared for believed in.

He would most likely have acted the same if she had relented then. As that was his nature.. He loved her, but he also loved his mother and well, Oedipus anyone?? (sorry). And she never exactly discouraged his rule breaking. She knew how important his mother was too him, and when Mace ordered him to stay it was her idea to go to Geonosis.

So from a certain point of view they kinda led each other down the dark path. But ulitmately each is responsible for thier own choices, and each will pay the price.

 

Anakin's main problem is his capacity for Love. Jedi are not supposed to love. From love comes fear, loss, pain, and jealousy, all of which can lead to the dark side.

Yoda in TPM was worried over Anakin's obvious attachment to his mother- "I sense much fear in you." And look what happened- the pain of loosing her sent him off the deep end.

All I'm saying is if Padme had told him she really did care for him and love him at the fireplace scene, it's possible Anakin could have fallen back on her love, instead of going bezerk on the Tuskins. I'm not saying they would have hopped into bed together (that would never happen in GL universe.)

But you notice after she declares her love for him, the 2 of them seem to become one character. In the arena, they fight together, Anakin is completely insane when she falls from the transport, because she is a part of him. Unfortunately we'll never know if it could have made a difference because of how events unfolded.

 

IAMZAM,

How convenient, that once again, the woman pays the highest price of all. I'm not going to watch Episode III. I'm through with tragedy, even in the guise of entertainment.


"These five words in my head, scream, "ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?!" -- Nickelback, How You Remind Me

 

PadmeLeiaJaina,

Anakin's main problem is his capacity for Love.

No, I think his problem is his capacity to feel everything deeply, regardless what it is. Like I said before, he doesn't do anything half way.

Jedi are not supposed to love. From love comes fear, loss, pain, and jealousy, all of which can lead to the dark side.

I thought their celebacy was to keep their minds focused on the service to the people rather than their immediate family. Sort of like the naval military tries to be when they tell their members -- "Unless your wife is packed in your seabag, she doesn't exist."

Yoda in TPM was worried over Anakin's obvious attachment to his mother- "I sense much fear in you." And look what happened- the pain of loosing her sent him off the deep end.

Poor kid probably already had foreseen his mother's grizzly death.

All I'm saying is if Padme had told him she really did care for him and love him at the fireplace scene, it's possible Anakin could have fallen back on her love,

He already knew she loved him. That's a cop out, very indicative of emotional immaturity.

But you notice after she declares her love for him, the 2 of them seem to become one character.

I saw it as more of a comraderie where they know they are going to die and to hades with the rules. Might as well enjoy each other's company while they can.

Anakin is completely insane when she falls from the transport, because she is a part of him.

This was the only thing I had trouble believing, frankly.

Unfortunately we'll never know if it could have made a difference because of how events unfolded.

Men are so final.

"These five words in my head, scream, 'ARE WE HAVING FUN YET!?'" - Nickelback, How You Remind Me

 

I think Anakin paid a pretty steep price also. Its not like he forced her into anything. Nobody forces her in to anything. She suffered because of her choices, that fact that she is a woman is irrelevant. She knew better than anyone else exactly what kind of person he was, and yet she jumped in eyes wide shut. She is responsible for her choices.

Actually marrying and loving her was part of his ride to the dark side. You saw how nuts he went when she fell out of the transport.

A Jedi is supposed to be unattached and beable to put the good of the whole above the good of the few or the one. That's not easy to do, when you are forced to make decisions that go against your personal desire. It is his attachment and problems with letting go that will be part of his downfall. His love for his wife will most likely be used as a weapon against him.

 

IAMZAM,

Perhaps you are just young or a male? Well whatever the case may be, she loses her children and her life many years before Anakin loses his. He spends the next 30 years or so literally doing whatever the hades he wants and Padme's six feet under. He makes amends with his children. Where's their mother?!!! In the end only Anakin is rescurrected, given a sort of sainthood and gets to go to the happy afterlife with who? Where's Padme? Uh yeah. Where's her resolution? There isn't one. When and if, GL finally inserts Padme into the closing scene of RotJ, I will have already lost interest because of the horrid treatment Padme receives in the story. She's like the typical female martyr, a too oft repeated tragedy.

"These five words in my head, scream, 'ARE WE HAVING FUN YET!?'" -- Nickelback, How You Remind ME

 

A lot of people have said that the dialogue in the fireplace scene is bad. It is bad if you are judging it based on what real people would do and say today. However, as each and every one of you on these boards should know, SW takes place A LONG TIME AGO, IN A GALAXY FAR, FAR AWAY... In order to give SW a "classical" and "once upon a time" feeling, GL has said that he has the actors in SW act and say things that would have been said in movies in the 30's and 40's. This give SW a "classical" feel and makes it seem like SW actually takes place A LONG TIME AGO. If GL used "good" dialogue/modern dialogue, the SW series would be dated and people watching the film years from now would not be able to get past the fact that the films were made in 1999 and 2002. This is because people speak a certain way depending on what "decade" it is (i.e. People in the 90's spoke slightly differently than people in the 80's, 70's, and so on). This is how police profilers are able to tell how old a criminal is based on his writings. The fact that critics don't understand this is the reason why they say it's bad. In reality, its just more thought out and different from other movies, which is obviously too much for many critics to understand.

 

Bravo SWfan2002- Bravo!!!!

 

Then how come the dialogue in ANH and ESB and ROTJ aren't "classical" and still sound great? People aren't complaining about scenes in those movies. I can't think of a "fireplace scene" for ANH or ESB.

The fireplace scene is dramatically limp, awkwardly acted, and clumsily written. If George Lucas deleted this scene tomorrow, I wouldn't even miss it for a second.

 

I agree with JohnWilliams00, SWfan. The dialogue they use in the OT sounds directly from the 70's and 80's and are still way better than that of the Fireplace scene. And besides, wouldn't people who're watching the movies "years from now" think that 1999 and 2002 dialogue is ancient, anyway, if not as classical as you say 30s and 40s dialogue is?

And another thing: if GL was going to use classical 30s and 40s era dialogue, the actors who played these characters should have at least tried to become accustomed to delivering these lines in a way that would be believably "classic" for the audience.

 

Oh please Apples and Oranges people. Personally I always thought the dialogue between Luke and Leia about their mother was awkward. I think it's about comparable.

You need to see the movie a bunch of times. You don't even notice the dialogue at that point, other than it seems fine. They are both totally conflicted and confused people. That's the point of the scene. It's supposed to be awkward, because these 2 people have no business feeling the way they do for each other. And they are both so inexperienced that they don't know how to behave around each other. I like the dialogue and the scene fine. The best part is the hurt, pained look on Anakins face at the very end of it, it just sets up the tension and drama for the rest of the film.

 

"People" is stupid fanboys. These people don't know what a good film is. Wow, that's three straight threads where I've had to explain this. To them, Matrix, ID4 and Jurrasic Park are good movies. When Star Wars does have emotions, character development, subtleness, professional acting, meaningful dialogue that aren't the norm for "popcorn movies", stupid people normally miss it. For instance, Jabbadadbadoo.

 

Actually Undomiel I am neither very young, nor am I male. At least not the last time I checked. I am anything but.

I am in my thirties, I am a single mother and I have dealth with Anakin-y guys first hand. My ex is a prime example. I refuse to be seen as a victim. I will keep this short as this isnt' the place to get into this. But I am tired of Women who get themselves into these situations crying poor me. I knew what he was, and I chose to get involved. I got hurt, I have no one to blame. I rose above my situation. IF you want more details there is a link in my profile.. Please don't make assumptions. I assume nothing about you, other than what you tell me. IF you want to discuss this further you can PM me, or AIM me.

AS for resolution, the series isn't over yet. Yes she is a tragic figure, the world is full of these, that doesn't make her any less of a person. And who knows there may still be some suprises in store for us yet. I highly doubt she is going to go out with out one hell of a fight. She is not the kind of woman who just lays down and dies. She gave up her children out of love to protect them.

Anakin could have had it all, (well maybe) he had a wife who loved him, he could have had children (depending on how the JC handled the situation) they would have had a very hard road, but they stood a chance. They are very like minded people in many ways, and make a great couple.

She is NOT a victim, she is a willing partipant