CT Why does Sidious TELL Vader that Luke is his son?

It's because Sidious's gloating did work before. He egged Luke on to take back his lightsaber and strike him down in anger, and Luke did exactly that, only being stopped from doing so by Vader. Why wouldn't Sidious think it would work a second time?

By interjecting when he does, Sidious is also ensuring that Luke identifies his personal hatred for his father with a larger fealty to the Emperor and his ideology, thus psychologically binding Luke to him in servitude. Sidious is being shrewd here. Luke is in fact so far down the dark path at this point that it should have worked. The only reason it didn't is because Luke has the benefit of seeing, right in front of him, the evidence of what he will inevitably become. Luke is able to learn from the mistakes of his father, whereas Anakin was basically on his own.

 

Padme was a threat...which is why she needed to be eliminated. But it had to be done in a way to bring Anakin closer to Palpatine. Again, we don't know precisely what Palpatine knew, but we do know he was already poisoning his mind against the Galactic Republic in AOTC, which is the beginnings of a wedge between Anakin and Padme.

"I don't think the system works," Anakin finished, matter-of-factly.

"Really?" she replied sarcastically. "Well, how would you have it work?"

Anakin stood up, suddenly intense. "We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem, agree

what's in the best interests of the people, and then do it," he said, as if it was perfectly simple and logical.

"Which is exactly what we do," came Padme's unhesitating reply.

Anakin looked at her doubtfully.

"The trouble is that people don't always agree," she explained. "In fact, they hardly ever do."

"Then they should be made to."

That statement caught Padme a bit off guard. Was he so convinced that he had the answers that he... No, she put that
unsettling thought out of her mind. "By whom?" she asked. "Who is going to make them?"

"I don't know," he answered, waving his hands again in obvious frustration. "Someone."

"You?"

"Of course not me!"

"But someone."

"Someone wise."

"That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship," Padme said, winning the debate. She watched Anakin as a mischievous
little grin began to spread across his face.

"Well," he said calmly, "if it works..."

Padme tried to hide her shock. What was he talking about? How could he believe that? She stared at him, and he
returned the severe look-but he couldn't hold it, and burst out laughing.

"You're making fun of me!"


There are plenty of examples of Palps planting seeds of doubt and even jealousy between Anakin and Padme in ROTS:


PADME: Anakin . . .

ANAKIN: Sometimes, I wonder what's happening to the Jedi Order . . . I think this war is destroying the principles of the Republic.

PADME: Have you ever considered that we may be on the wrong side?

ANAKIN: (suspicious) What do you mean?

PADME: What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?

ANAKIN: I don't believe that. And you're sounding like a Separatist!

PADME: Anakin, this war represents a failure to listen . . . Now, you're closer to the Chancellor than anyone. Please, please ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume.

ANAKIN: (growing angry) Don't ask me to do that, Padme. Make a motion in the Senate, where that kind of a request belongs. I'm not your errand boy. I'm not anyone's errand boy!

PADME: What is it?

ANAKIN: Nothing.

PADME: Don't do this . . . don't shut me out. Let me help you.

ANAKIN: You can't help me . . . I'm trying to help you.

They look in each other's eyes.

ANAKIN: (continuing) I sense . . . there are things you are not telling me.

PADME is startled at this.

PADME: I sense there are things you are not telling me.

PADME smiles. ANAKIN is a little embarrassed.

---------------------------------------

PALPATINE: There are rumors in the Senate about Master Kenobi. Many believe he is not fit for this assignment.

ANAKIN: Not fit? Why would anyone think that?

PALPATINE: They say his mind has become fogged by the influence of a certain female Senator.

ANAKIN: That's ridiculous. Who?!?

PALPATINE: (slyly) No one knows who she is ... only that she is a Senator.

ANAKIN: That's impossible. I would know.

PALPATINE: Sometimes the closest are the ones who cannot see.

ANAKIN becomes worried.

PALPATINE: (continuing) Idle Senate gossip is rarely true and never accurate. I'm sure your Master will do fine.

--------------------------------

ANAKIN: I sense someone familiar . . . Obi-Wan's been here, hasn't he?

PADME: He came by this morning.

ANAKIN: What did he want?

PADME looks at him for a moment. ANAKIN seems tense.

PADME: He's worried about you.

ANAKIN: You told him about us, didn't you?

-------------------------------------

PALPATINE: (continuing) Their sincerity is to be admired, although I sense there is more to their request than they are telling us.

ANAKIN: What do you mean?

PALPATINE: They are not to be trusted.

ANAKIN: Surely Senator Amidala can be trusted . . .

PALPATINE: These are unstable times for the Republic, Anakin. Some see instability as an opportunity. Senator Amidala is hiding something. I can see it in her eyes.

ANAKIN: I'm sure you're mistaken.

PALPATINE: I'm surprised your Jedi insights are not more sensitive to such things.

ANAKIN: I simply don't sense betrayal in Senator Amidala.

PALPATINE studies ANAKIN carefully and gives him a skeptical look.

PALPATINE: Yes, you do, but you don't seem to want to admit it. There is much conflict in you, Anakin.

--------------------------------------

ANAKIN: Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me.

PADME: He cares about us.

ANAKIN: Us??!

-------------------------------------

PADME: Because of what you've done . . . what you plan to do. Stop, stop now. Come back! I love you.

ANAKIN: (seeing Obi-Wan) Liar!

PADME turns around and. sees OBI-WAN standing in the doorway of the Naboo Cruiser.

PADME: No!

ANAKIN: You're with him. You've betrayed me! You brought him here to kill me!

PADME: NO! Anakin. I swear ... I ...

ANAKIN reaches out, and PADME grabs her throat as she starts to choke.

OBI-WAN: Let her go, Anakin.

ANAKIN: What have you and she been up to?

OBI-WAN: Let her go!


The novelization adds a bit more to this:

“You need to distance yourself from your … friends … in the Senate, Padmé. It’s very important to avoid even the appearance of disloyalty.”
“Anakin—you sound like you’re threatening me …”
“This is a dangerous time,” he said. “We are all judged by the company we keep.”

----------------------------

“The Separatist leadership is no more, my Master.”
“It is finished, then.” The image offered a translucent mockery of a smile. “You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy, Lord Vader.”
“That is my sole ambition. Master.”
The image tilted its head, its smile twisting without transition to a scowl. “Lord Vader—I sense a disturbance in the Force. You may be in danger.”
He glanced at the mirror flash outside; he knew that ship. In danger of being kissed to death, perhaps …
“How should I be in danger, Master?”
“I cannot say. But the danger is real; be mindful.”
Be mindful, be mindful, he thought with a mental sneer. Is that the best you can do? I could get that much from Obi-Wan …
“I will, my Master. Thank you.”
The image faded.

-----------------------------------------

“Why, Master Yoda, what a delightful surprise! Welcome!” The voice of the shadow hummed with anticipation. “Let me be the first to wish you Happy Empire Day!”
“Find it happy, you will not. Nor will the murderer you call Vader.”
“Ah.” The shadow stepped closer to the light. “So that is the threat I felt. Who is it, if I may ask? Who have you sent to kill him?”
“Enough it is that you know your own destroyer.”
“Oh, pish, Master Yoda. It wouldn’t be Kenobi, would it? Please say it’s Kenobi—Lord Vader gets such a thrill from killing people who care for him …”


So no, Padme going to Mustafar isn't the problem you think it to be. Palpatine's had that based covered for quite awhile.

 

If this is so, why did Palpatine tell Vader that Luke could destroy them, as in both he and Vader?
He is breaking the very thing you say he is very careful with.

Also, in RotJ when Vader says that Luke is on Endor, Palpatine admits to not having sensed him.
Why?
He could play it cool and say "Ahh I wondered if you would sense him too Lord Vader. Good, now you must go there and wait for him."

Disagree, Luke totally choose death over becoming a servant of evil.
Luke looks down in ESB, sees that there is no escape that way only a very likely death.
But he accepts this, he does not fight it, he does not cling to life, like Vader does.

Same in RotJ, Luke came on the DS2, thinking he would die when the rebels attacked and he was cool with that. He figured at least he would take Vader and Palpatine down with him.

Umm, why is this a mistake on Vader's part and why would it give Luke hope?
Vader says that Luke CAN destroy the emperor, not that he will.
Had he not said that, I really doubt Luke would have joined Vader as opposed to letting go and falling down.
Luke does not act out of fear yes, he is accepting of his fate, which would most likely be death.
He has no plan or any much hope to get away.

But this is a) using the idea that evil is stupid and that they can't work together and must betray each other even they all loose with that.
And b) the sith can be very patient, they spent 1000 years in hiding, waiting for the right time to strike.
So there both master and apprentice could forgo chances to gain some power out of service to the overall sith goal.

Except the problem with this is why did they tell Luke about Leia?
Vader did pluck that from Luke's mind and used it against him.
Had Yoda not said anything about another Skywalker then Luke would not have any idea that Leia is his sister.
And he certainly did not need to know this to confront Vader and Palpatine.

I disagree with this reasoning because to me, it reduces Luke.
Now he no longer has a unique insight, something that is truly his. Yoda and Obi-wan had known all along.
Plus he now just plays out a script written for him by Yoda and Obi-Wan. They know what will happen so just nudge him along the way.

Why does it have to be Vader that kills Palpatine?
Had Luke played hide and seek five minutes longer, the DS2 would have blown up, killing Vader and Palpatine. Force balanced.
Plus it requires that Yoda and Obi-Wan knows that Luke will go to Vader and Vader will bring him to Palpatine and that Luke would almost turn.
This is makes them pretty omniscient.

Also, in RotS, Yoda doubts the prophecy and Obi-Wan outright says that Anakin was supposed the kill the sith, not join them and all that.
Clearly he no longer has any faith in it.
For them to have a sudden about face regarding this would need to be established on-screen.
Which it isn't as they never talk about the prophecy in the OT nor do they say anything that could even hint of them believing that Vader could come back, They say pretty much the exact opposite.

But as I said, this pretty much requires them to be able to see the future with remarkable clarity. So they know that Luke would seek vader out, he would take Luke to Palpatine, Palpatine would be able to get Luke good and mad etc.

I took Obi-Wans line in RotJ as the children being a threat to Palpatine, not Vader.
If that meant that they could be as strong as their father and could thus beat him or that they might spark some humanity in Vader and turn him against his master? Unclear.

I am not a fan of this either as it reduces both Anakin and Luke. They don't exist in the story as their own characters, they are just there as pawns to serve a purpose.
Luke especially, he isn't there for himself or as his own character, he is just a plot device, a way to get Anakin to kill Palpatine.
In RotS Padme is likewise reduced and is there mostly as a plot device to get Anakin to turn. She has little of her own story there.

The Force creates Anakin and he is to kill Palpatine, what Anakin wants is irrelevant. And when Anakin chooses differently then the Force goes "Oh really, you didn't take the hint?" "Fine I will use your son to make you kill Palpatine."
It reduces free will, Anakin must do this and if he does not then the Force will use other people to push Anakin to do this.
You mentioned choice, that a choice is needed. But here Anakin has no real choice. He must kill Palpatine and if he chooses otherwise then the Force will bring him back again and again until he does what the Force wants.

I think that Vader had started to change at the end of ESB.
He could not conceive of Luke choosing death over the offer he made to him, that Luke could turn away from power. But Luke did and this shook Vader, notice that he does not kill Piett at the end.
Then in RotJ he is very different, his drive, his focus is subdued. He is more subservient and seemingly resigned to his fate.

I have said it before but will say it again, on Endor I think Vader was not happy, that he did not want to do this. That he didn't want to kill his son or have his son become a slave like him.
And I think he knew then that he was a prisoner, a slave and he had begun to doubt and regret the choices he had made.
What he lacked was the strength, or maybe the hope. Vader had given up, saw no way for him to break his chains. But when he saw Luke refuse to turn, to turn away from evil. He saw that it could be done. Plus when Luke pleads to him, his love for his son is there. The same Luke that had not given up on him, unlike Obi-Wan. The son that refused to kill him and accepted death instead. So now he stops running from death and lets go of his hate and fear and is now willing to lay down his life to save another.

But Sidious has done this all the time. He has been goading Luke to attack him over and over again.
And Luke already knows that Vader is a victim, he heard Vader say "I MUST obey my master!"
Sidous gloated that Luke, like Vader, would become "MINE!"
And Sidious knows that Luke has compassion for his father.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I wonder if Lucas changed his mind at some point during the production process then, because that quote doesn't seem to match what I see in the end product.
McDiarmid's quote doesn't contradict what I'm saying though. With Dooku dead, Obi Wan is nothing but trouble for Sidious.[/quote]

Right, but Dooku was supposed to kill Obi-wan so that Anakin would be enraged enough to kill Dooku. Nothing was changed in the scene other than Lee convincing Lucas to cut Dooku's plea for help.

PALPATINE: "Kill him, Anakin. Kill him now."

DOOKU: "But you promised me amnesty."

PALPATINE: "I lied."

The Battle of Courscant was intended to be the point where he would turn Anakin. He knows that Anakin can beat Dooku because he is the Chosen One. His look of concern is that he can sense that Obi-wan isn't dead and he isn't sure if he won't recover in time to interfere with his plan. This is the second time he's orchestrated a kidnapping attempt in order to test Anakin and see if he is ready.

It is.

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the dark side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

Actually, it would be. Dooku turned for those reasons. The original Jedi who became the Sith did as well. The offer of power and learning it from someone else is tempting. It's just often easier to train from birth since the mind can be shaped earlier.

"After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

Anakin goes forward from evil to good, knowing and accepting the darkness within him, which he tried to deny two decades earlier. Because he tried to deny the capacity for evil within himself and trying to rationalize it as all being for someone else's benefit, he fell to the dark side.

Indeed. Remember that Dooku was working with Maul and Sidious prior to the Naboo invasion and then during the war, they employed Ventress as an associate. So again, he would believe that Anakin joining them would be akin to Ventress. But he didn't know that this time, his days were numbered.

They don't tell Luke because they don't expect Luke to do what he did. Obi-wan blocks Dooku because he is using his Lightsaber and didn't rush Dooku like Anakin did. Same with Mace. Yoda knows more because he is the Grand Master and has learned how to deal with the lightning without a Lightsaber. But he has no time to train Luke and he has no clue what Luke will do when the time comes.

 

Because, ultimately, this is a movie, and this character exposition is necessary for the audience. No movie is perfect, and when you multiply that by the eight movies that we're up to by now, made and redone over several decades, there's gonna be mistakes. Any movie can be nitpicked ad nauseum. If you're going to demand absolute perfection of these films, then that's a rabbit hole that I won't follow you into.

Luke didn't expect to survive in ROTJ, but survival wasn't his goal - his goal was to turn Vader, and he was willing to die in the process if need be, but it was through commitment, not a desire to die. In case you didn't notice, Luke didn't die in the ESB "No Escape" scenario, thus justifying his faith that the Force vision was true and he would survive. That gave him the confidence to do so again in ROTJ. Whether or not you think this confidence was justified is up to you, but it worked both times.

Again, there's no absolute certainty in anything. This is a movie, and Luke made a leap of faith on the possibility that he would survive, which he did. If you going to completely discount Force intervention, then you might as well give up on these movies completely.

The Sith are written as an extreme characterization of human nature being greedy, selfish, lusting for power, etc. It's done in service to the story.

Don't like it? Don't watch it.

And yet, Luke was able to hold it together until Vader threatened Leia, at which point even Luke momentarily lost his faith and fell to the Dark Side, much like his father. Unlike his father, however, Luke was still able to pull himself back. This was the example that Vader needed to see, that one could turn away from the Dark Side, from one's anger. This is the lesson of the films, themselves - don't give into your darkest fears, don't let anger overtake you.

YODA
Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength
flows from the Force. But beware
of the dark side. Anger... fear...
aggression. The dark side of
the Force are they.
Easily they flow, quick to join
you in a fight. If once you
start down the dark path, forever
will it dominate your destiny,
consume you it will, as it did
Obi-Wan's apprentice.

LUKE
Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

YODA
No... no... no. Quicker, easier,
more seductive.

LUKE
But how am I to know the good side
from the bad?

YODA
You will know. When you are calm,
at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and
defense, never for attack.

Well, the whole movie is a script, so I don't know what you're expecting from all this. And again, we don't know to what extent Yoda and Ben know the details. There is uncertainty amongst the Jedi as well.

GL: "I think it is obvious that [Qui-gon] was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor." - CUT magazine interview

"Sam Davatchi's website reports that George Lucas told a reporter for Studio Magazine that Anakin is indeed the one who brings balance to the force. In this interview, Lucas said that Anakin vanquished the Emperor and brought balance to the Force, although he did need help from Luke to do so. In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him. As pointed out by Cinescape Online, this fits into the following statement made by Lucas in the Making of Episode I book: "The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out."

That said, movies require suspense, which means the audience needs to worry that things won't turn out (even though we know that they ultimately will).

Tell me, have you watched the SW films more than once? Why do so, since you already know how they're going to turn out? Are you expecting a different outcome each time you watch them, or are you still enjoying the story that you know so well, and have seen duplicated in countless other movies where the protagonist ultimately succeeds despite obstacles placed by the writer?

Because that's who did kill Palpatine in the vision. Every event you see in the movie is what led up to the vision that a Jedi saw way in the past.

But Luke wouldn't have saved his father's soul, his humanity.

Again, we don't know the true extent of their knowledge.

They did question it, but that doesn't mean they can't get that faith back. This happens in real life as well, where a person might question their religious faith when bad events happen to them (death of a child, etc.) After going through a dark period, many will return to their faith, believing there was a reason for the event that they simply don't understand. Happens all the time...

At one point, even Luke, in his anger, lost his faith and gave up on his father as well. Even then, he was able to turn back and put his faith back into the Will of the Force. We will all fall at some point....the lesson of these films is that one must get back up. Luke did this, and finally, so did Anakin.

Which Luke doesn't believe, and in fact makes him try even harder to prove them wrong. Reverse psychology. The Matrix does this as well, when the Oracle tells Neo that he's not The One:

ORACLE
But you already know what I'm
going to tell you.
NEO
I'm not the One.
ORACLE
Sorry, kid. You got the gift but
looks like you're waiting for
something.
NEO
What?
ORACLE
Your next life, maybe. Who knows?
That's how these things go.

Funny enough, what she says turns out to be absolutely true. He is waiting for something, and it doesn't happen in this life. He has to die, and be reborn through Trinity's love to become The One. However, telling all this to Neo, and thus to the audience, removes the suspense.

TRINITY
Morpheus is right, you know. It
doesn't matter what he believes or
even what the Oracle believes.
What matters is what you believe.

MORPHEUS
Do you believe it now, Trinity?
Trinity looks at Neo.
NEO
Morpheus, the Oracle... she told me --
MORPHEUS
She told you exactly what you
needed to hear. That's all.
Sooner or later, Neo, you're going
to realize just like I did the
difference between knowing a path
and walking a path.

Luke does the same thing, as do many other protagonists in many other movies.

And that ambiguity serves the storyline, much as it does The Matrix, and countless other movies that employ some sort of Prophecy in the storyline. This is not unique to Star Wars by any means.

Which, again, is true in any story or movie. If you read the Annotated Screenplays, you'll see how events and characters were set up to create the finale of the movie. I'm not sure why you think it would be otherwise.

Balance would also emerge as a recurring theme in the story. "The overriding philosophy in Episode I - and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter, is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to follow it, or not." - The Making of Episode One

In ROTS, Anakin chooses not to fulfill his destiny. In ROTJ, he corrects that mistake. Either way, it was always his choice. The Prophecy simply showed that he ultimately made the correct choice at some point, and the movies show the events that led up to that choice. If you don't like this, then don't watch any movie that involves a prophecy, because they're all going to do the same thing.

Vader changes in many ways through ESB, but yes, I would agree with you. Luke gives Anakin a "New Hope", but originally, that hope fuels a darker purpose, because Vader is still consumed with hatred and a lust for power. It's not until Vader can free himself of these darker urges that he sees Luke for what he truly is - a chance to correct his mistakes.

Again, I agree with you...but don't forget, even Luke finally gave up on his father when Leia was threatened, and nearly killed him in anger. Nonetheless, Luke was able to bring himself back from the Dark Side...something Vader never believed possible until he saw Luke do it. Again, this is the lesson of the films, that it's never to late to do the right thing.

YODA
Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength
flows from the Force. But beware
of the dark side. Anger... fear...
aggression. The dark side of
the Force are they.
Easily they flow, quick to join
you in a fight. If once you
start down the dark path, forever
will it dominate your destiny,
consume you it will, as it did
Obi-Wan's apprentice.

It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and the he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the Dark Side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts suggest that although can't see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training, Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start to use him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection. In this episode Luke should embody the classic tale of the ugly duckling who becomes a hero, and by the end of the film Luke should have become Ben. - Annotated Screenplays

Although the characters talk about the "Dark Side" of the Force, this is really an allegory for using power responsibly. Throughout history, people have had tremendous power, but with great power comes with great responsibility.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time." - George Lucas

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful—it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by." - George Lucas

As Spock says in Wrath of Khan:

McCOY: But, dear Lord, do you think we're intelligent enough to... Suppose, what if this thing were used where life already exists?
SPOCK: It would destroy such life in favour of its new matrix.
McCOY: It's new matrix? ...Do you have you any idea what you're saying?
SPOCK: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create.

Life requires a careful balance, and when the Sith (or any other Force user) abuse their power, that creates unbalance (such as destroying an entire planet). Anakin was created to restore that balance, much like how our bodies create white blood cells to fight infections that can upset the balance in our bodies.

Indeed...

"Revenge of the Sith" completes Lucas' prequel series about the roots of Anakin, a dashing pilot and Jedi knight who turns to the dark side and is transformed into Darth Vader.

How about it, George? Was Anakin born bad?

"No," Lucas told The Associated Press. "That's why most people got upset about 'Episode I.' They said, 'Well, he should be a monster.' But he's not a monster. He has sort of heightened skills and awareness, and he's smarter than most people, but at the same time, he makes rather bad decisions."

Lucas chose to start with Anakin's boyhood, showing him progressing from cheery, precocious innocent in "Episode I -- The Phantom Menace," to churlish, lovesick puppy in "Episode II -- Attack of the Clones," to twisted terminator in "Revenge of the Sith."

As a prodigy with skills beyond his years, Anakin became seduced by the thought that he was destined for greater things than the average Jedi, said Lucas pal Steven Spielberg.

"I think it was simple ambition that turned him to the dark side," Spielberg said. "The trilogy says to me it's the dangers of that ambition. Look, he was in pod races at too young of an age. In this case, it was sort of the evil result of ambitions, being too ambitious for his own good."

Born into slavery on the desert planet Tatooine, Anakin was a mama's boy raised in a single-parent home never knowing who his father was. Identified by the Jedi as the next big thing, Force-wise, Anakin is whisked away to grow up under the tutelage of such galactic godfathers as Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda and Mace Windu.

As a teenager, Anakin returns to Tatooine and slaughters a band of nomadic "sand people" for killing his mom, the Jedi apprentice's first steps toward a life of malevolence.

"Anakin comes from a single-mother upbringing. He had such an extreme attachment to his mother, and because of that, losing her obviously had massive impact on him," said Hayden Christensen, who plays Anakin.

In "Revenge of the Sith," Anakin's fear of losing the person he most loves -- his wife, Padme Amidala -- makes him an easy mark for the evil emperor-to-be, who tempts the young Jedi to the dark side with promises of boundless power that would allow him to save his woman.

"It really had to do with greed and the flip side of greed, which is possessiveness," Lucas said. "If you're a Jedi, you can't have possessiveness. You can love people, you can care about people, but you can't hold on to them. As a result, that's where he goes wrong, and it takes him down a path of gaining power, and that power corrupts itself. And pretty soon, he's thinking about becoming the emperor of the universe."
The 'Force' of family

No one is born with a Napoleon complex. Yet our genetic raw material does establish tendencies for how each person will respond to environmental factors, said Alan Hilfer, a child psychologist at Maimonides Medical Center in New York.

"We come into the world with a personality, a character. Some kids are more irritable, some more sensitive, some kids are easygoing," Hilfer said. "We all come in with a particular set of biological pieces to make up who we are. How things act on those pieces determine how we navigate the rest of our lives."

Anakin does have a biological predisposition to great power in his sky-high level of "mitachlorians," the microscopic mojos from which Jedi and their evil counterparts, the Sith, derive their potency.

Then, so too does Luke, who inherits Dad's innate powers.

"The Force is strong with this one," Darth observes on his first encounter with Luke in the original "Star Wars," during a dogfight in space.

"The Force runs strong in my family," Luke comments in "Return of the Jedi," hinting to Princess Leia of her own hidden powers as he reveals they are brother and sister.

Luke grows up with a better support system, raised in a stern but loving home by his Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, Anakin's step-kin, on their Tatooine moisture farm. And unknown to him, he has Obi-Wan watching over him from a distance, biding his time until young Skywalker is ready to learn the ways of the Force.

Of course, Luke's aunt and uncle are slain by Vader's thugs. And he faces a similar threat of loss -- in Luke's case, his sister -- yet resists the temptation to chuck his altar-boy ways and sell his soul to the emperor.

At the end of "Episode VI -- Return of the Jedi," Luke's good heart is so strong, he draws his father back to the side of right as Anakin renounces decades of depravity and dies with a loving gaze fixed on his son.

"However Luke managed to become selfless, because he wasn't really trained in the same way a Jedi would be trained, but in the end, when push came to shove, he made a decision to be selfless," Lucas said. "He did not want the power to control the universe. He didn't want to be the emperor's right hand. He didn't want to destroy his father, and he refused to go along with the program."

Put simply, Han Solo once carped at Luke, "Don't get cocky."

Luke got the message. Anakin didn't.

Oh, I agree...but then he was never truly "evil" to begin with. Palpatine makes no such excuses....he thrives on the evil. Anakin has to lie to himself over and over to justify his actions. Once he stops lying to himself, he is able to back from the Dark Side, something he'd convinced himself, and at one point, even Luke, was impossible.

"I like the idea that the person you thought was the villain was really the victim. The story is really about the villain trying to regain his humanity. It's really the story of Darth Vader's redemption."

There's always this good in you. The good part is saying, "What am I doing?" and the bad part is "I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for us, it'll be better for the universe, it'll be better for everybody." But there's always this little part of you saying, "What am I doing?"]

Nobody who is evil thinks of themself as evil. They always believe they are doing good, even when they are not.

It happens once the Emperor starts to work on him and he makes him doubt things. Makes him doubt his relationship with the Jedi. Makes him doubt what is good in the universe. He throws out the possibility that he can keep his wife and save her from death. These are all seduction things, which causes a great deal of turmoil in Anakin. This is where he actually succombs to the influence of the Devil.

The prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the force by destroying the sith. He becomes Darth Vader. Darth Vader DOES become the hero. Darth Vader DOES destroy the Sith, meaning himself and the Emperor. He does it, because he is redeemed by his son.

Everybody thought that Darth Vader was this big, evil guy that had no heart, that he was just evil, but in the end, he's not that at all. Here's a guy who has lost everything. - Chosen One Documentary

That's one possible explanation, but there's one glaring problem: Who trained Ben to block lightning with a lightsaber? If the Sith have been hitherto believed to be wiped out well before his time, then who was there to create the Force lightning for him to practice on? Who was there for Yoda to practice on?

If there was no one to create Force lightning to practice on ahead of time, then Ben basically blocked the lightning on his first try. If Ben could do that, then why couldn't Luke? How is that any different from blocking a laser bolt? Luke was pretty good at that!



And even if there wasn't time to train Luke, they still could have told him about it. (Granted, this means the audience would know it as well, which spoils the surprise in ROTJ - at least prior to the PT - but still, it's an interesting omission.)

Of course, I have my own theory about Ben's and Yoda's ability to block Force lightning, but that's another discussion.

 

First, I have a different interpretation than you about what some characters may be thinking or what their plans might be.
That you try to argue that I don't understand movies or should stop watching SW is both dismissive and a bit rude.

You are dodging the question.
Your argument is that "Palpatine must make his apprentices believe he is all-powerful and all-knowing, or else they will exploit his weaknesses. "
I gave you two examples in the film where Palpatine admits a weakness or lack of knowledge.
You try to get around this with your "No films are perfect" excuse.
The far simpler explanation is that your argument is simply wrong.
That Palpatine can admit some lack of knowledge or weakness because he is still confident in his ability to overcome such a weakness.

Now you are twisting my argument. I said that Luke was accepting of death and that he preferred that to become a servant of evil. That is not the same as having a desire for death.

Also, what Force vision did Luke have that he now sees is true?

Luke has faith in his father, he thinks there is still some good in him, that the emperor has not driven it from him completely. That is why he won't kill him, he will instead try and save him.
This is based on Luke's own insight and him feeling the good and the conflict within his father.

That Luke did not die in ESB does mean that Luke knew that when he let go. I argue that he didn't know that and he let go and falling to what he thought was his death and he was calm and accepting of that as the alternative would be to become evil.
In RotJ, he seeks Vader out because he has little choice. if he stays with the rebels, he endangers the mission. With the shield up, he can't leave Endor. So he goes to Vader, partly due to lack of options but also that he has faith that Vader won't turn him over to the emperor.
He isn't looking to die, the odds are likely not good in his mind but he decides to take a chance and again, he has little in the way of options.
Once Vader rejects his offer to go with Luke and hands him over to Palpatine, Luke probably figured that this was the end of the road for him. But he had faith that the rebel attack would succeed and kill Vader and Palpatine, and himself too. But again, he accepted that. He did not want to die but he did not cling to life either.

Now you are back to dodging the question, I asked why it was a mistake by Vader to tell Luke that he COULD destroy the emperor. Yoda and Obi-Wan have been training Luke to do exactly this.
"Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his emperor."

Now you are using a dismissive attitude.

And even more dodging the question.
You argued that Yoda and Obi-Wan keep things from Luke as they worry that Vader or Palpatine might read his mind. And yet they tell Luke about Leia, which Luke did not need to confront Vader.

Or is your argument now that they told him this, knowing that Vader would read his mind and use to it to make Luke mad and come really close to turning but back down and this would in turn get Vader to turn back.
And you still don't think this requires them to be omniscient?

To me, a good movie makes me see the characters talking or doing things. A movie that instead makes me see actors reading lines or following the script is decidedly less good.
If actions or motivations by characters in a film only makes sense if I assume that the CHARACTERS read the script, then that is not a good thing.
So if I can ascribe a different motivation to the characters and this does not require them to have read the script, then most often I prefer that option.

Both dismissive attitude and dodging the question.
I have watched the SW films and many other films more than once, most often because I enjoy the characters, the story/plot, certain scenes, the music, the mood, the suspense, the jokes etc.

None of this relates to the issue I have with your argument, that Obi-Wan and Yoda had a master plan all along and this plan was to manipulate Luke and get him to a position where Vader turns back and kills Palpatine.

I instead see it like this, Yoda and Obi-Wan have given up on Vader and they want Luke to kill him and then Palpatine. They see this is as needed, which Yoda says in ESB "Stopped they must be, On this everything depends."
Luke however, due to his insight or compassion is able to see what they do not, that there is still good in Vader. And so he resolves to try and save his father as opposed to killing him.
And he succeeds, proving Yoda, Obi-Wan and Palpatine wrong.
I simply prefers this reading of the story to yours, which to me, makes Luke less engaging and interesting as he is now just a total puppet of Yoda, Obi-Wan and Palpatine. He has nothing of his own.

So only Han can kill Greedo? Only Leia can kill Jabba?
The argument that someone is the only one that can do something because they did this thing, is not much of an argument.

And what vision that a Jedi saw in the past?
Do you mean the prophecy?
All we know about that is that it says something about bring balance to the Force and the Jedi assume that it means killing the Sith.
We have no idea what anyone saw, if it was a vision or something else.

Which means diddly squat to the Force, it just wants the sith, as in Palpatine and Vader, dead.

If your argument is that they told Luke about Leia with the specific intent of Vader seeing it and using it to make Luke really mad and come this close to turning. Then their knowledge must be pretty extensive.

It can happen but if the films want to establish that it DID happen then they need to show it somehow.
It is possible that Luke and Leia slept with each other after ANH, sex happens in real life.
But if I want to argue that they did then I kind of need more than "It could happen."

So in ESB, did Yoda and Obi-wan want Luke to leave?
They kept telling him not to so did they really want him to go?
Had Luke not left and met Vader and established the connection and been able to sense the good in Vader.
Would Luke have the faith he has in RotJ? I doubt it.
So something good came out what they thought to be very bad.

And many more protagonists are simply told to do something and they do just that.
In ANH Luke is told to try and blow up the DS. They don't try to say "Ohh it can't be done, don't bother." just so that Luke can try to prove them wrong.

Still other protagonists are told to do something but they disagree and try to find another way and they do, showing that there are alternatives.

If it is ambiguous then that means it can be interpreted in different ways.
So why then are you so dismissive simply because I interpret somethings in the films differently than you?
And to me, the Matrix films made far better use of the prophecy idea than the PT did.
They did something interesting with it and it had an impact on the main character, Neo.
In the PT it is just there to make the story seem more "Epic" and it has little to no impact on Anakin as a character.

Again I have to reiterate, if a movie makes me sees actors following the script as opposed to characters doing things, the movie is not doing it's job very well.
And you are once again dodging the issue.
I see it as Luke and Anakin as characters having free will and being able to make their own choices. Not that they are helpless puppets that are only there to make sure Palpatine dies.
Reducing Anakin down to "He exists to kill Palpatine" makes him far less interesting and engaging.
Same with Luke, reducing him down to "He is there to turn Anakin back so he kills Palpatine." that too makes him less of an engaging character.

So once again, I simply have a different interpretation than you. With films I enjoy to watch several times it is mostly about the journey with the characters and not so much the end.
And to me, SW is more enjoyable the way I interpret it.

First, would you mind stop telling me what I can and can not do, it is very dismissive.
Second, I have watched plenty of films with a prophecy story-line that did a far better job of it than the PT.
The Harry Potter books have a prophecy but they also makes it clear that even without one, Harry would still oppose Voldemort, because that is who Harry is.
Third, you argument seems to be that the Force did not accept Anakin choosing to not kill Palpatine and so switched to using Luke as a tool to make Anakin choose differently. So by your argument, Anakin only has free will if he does what the Force wants, if not, then it would use others until Anakin makes the choice it wants.
Maybe the Force made Luke the new chosen one and planned for him to kill Vader and Palpatine but Luke also did not do what the Force wanted but instead made Anakin turn back and then kill Palpatine.
So the Force got what it wanted but not in the way it thought.

Last thought on Anakin being there just to kill Palpatine.
We know other Siths have been powerful in the past, did the Force create chosen ones to kill them as well?
If not, why is one needed now?
If yes, was Anakin the first who did not get it right the first time?

Vader knowing about Luke does this yes. We see this in Vader during most of ESB.
But after having Luke reject power, now Vader changes. Some of that drive is gone, he still has hate and he still fears death. But now doubt and regret has crept in. There is now a conflict, a voice that Vader has not wanted to hear for over twenty years is now being heard again. The good that was in Anakin, the love he felt, the kindness, the care and compassion.

[/QUOTE]

No argument here, there is always hope even when things seem bleak.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Like I said, this is becoming a rabbit hole, and I'm not going to get deeper into these weeds. The Star Wars films, like any other film, have their issues, and everybody has a better way. I'm not trying to be dismissive....it's just I've had this argument dozens of times, and it's gonna be what it's gonna be. I hope you find the answers you seek.

MTFBWY

 

It is not about finding answers, it is about different interpretations of elements of the films.
You see things one way, I another, I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that.

You think that Yoda and Obi-Wan had a super secret master plan to manipulate Luke to a position where Anakin turns back and kills Palpatine.
I do not, I think that Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to simply kill Vader and then Palpatine and the idea to turn Anakin back was Luke's and Luke's alone.
Simple as that.

And to be clear, mostly I have issues with your interpretation of the films and not so much the films themselves.
I think that your version of characters and events makes less sense and makes them less interesting.
But if you want to interpret the films this way, go ahead, have a party.

Bye!

 

Hey look! On this, we agree!

 

That's all well and good, and a party sounds like fun, but it's not simply my interpretation:

"The part I am working on now [ROTJ] is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel.. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film." - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays

Now, this is as large a retcon on Lucas' part as"I am your father" and Leia being Luke's brother, but it's there nonetheless. That said, it can be ignored with no detrimental effect to the films, much as the Prophecy can be ignored while watching the OT. Viewer's choice.

 

That particular quote might be just a case of Lucas simplifying for the sake of brevity. He's basically recapping a core emotional through-line of the whole trilogy there, after all.

 

Then why add the last line?

 

Perhaps Frank was testing Vader? His resolve? not sure

 

Then the Jedi might suspect that he needs Anakin in Coruscant for something. They might let him back initially, but later find an excuse to send him somewhere else.

I actually thought Nute knew who he was too, but was just too intimidated to resist him.

Well in ANH escaping from the death star was no easy task, and yet Leia still figured that the Empire intentionally let them go. If Grievous doesn't put up any fight, the Jedi would get suspicious.

Tarkin wasn't overconfident. He was well aware of the danger, but just decided it was a risk worth taking. He didn't do anything just for fun that would jeopardize his chances of succeeding.

1. Regardless of how much hatred Luke might feel towards Vader, it is still less than his hatred towards Sidious. Taking Luke out of his blind rage (anger focused on Vader) back to reality (remembering, amongst other things, that the number one enemy is actually Sidious) can't be a good thing for Sidious.

2. The Sidious vs Mace part is a whole other debate. What I'm trying to say is that in ROTS, Sidious was highly skilled in his manipulation of Anakin. He knew that commenting on how angry Anakin has become would make him turn off his weapon, and he used this knowledge to his advantage. But in ROTJ, he does the same to Luke, when he actually needs Luke to attack in hatred.

3. I'm not talking about the turn itself here (whether or not a person gets stuck on the dark side after one outburst of anger), but the manipulation (or lack thereof) leading up to turn, before the command power (if it exists) can begin working. Sidious in ROTS understands reverse psychology and uses it. Sidious in ROTJ reveals to Luke what he actually wants of him. This would only make Luke want to do the opposite.

4. He is adding more emphasis now. Not only does he kill random innocents, but he can also discard his own apprentice in cold blood. That's a whole new level of cruelty. Previously, Luke probably saw Vader as part victim and part minion (a lesser evil relative to Sidious, but still on Sidious's team). Now that the working relationship between Sidious and Vader had been terminated by Sidious in such a cruel way, Luke is more likely to see Vader as simply a victim.

5. Jabba's gloating doesn't change Luke's course of action, Sidious's does. Luke killing the Rancor and escaping the Sarlac were not the result of Jabba's gloating.

But after Luke turns off his lightsaber for the second time (despite knowing about the trap and getting attacked by Vader after turning it off the first time), shouldn't Sidious think, "Uh oh, it's not working," or at least "Hmm... he's quite stubborn, there's a chance this might not actually work"? Instead he still laughs and says, "Good, good!"

So his plan was to first get Luke mad, then for Luke to focus his hate on Vader. Hatred alone isn't enough, it has to be focused hatred. On Vader. But Sidious broke that focus by speaking up at the critical moment, destroying his own plan.

Yeah his suggestion to Sidious about converting Luke and his decision to hand Luke over seem strange if he believes that Sidious would never have two apprentices simultaneously. If you are firm in your opinion that Vader should already know, based on what happened to Dooku, that Sidious would certainly discard him after getting Luke, and an illogicality thus can not be avoided, then I feel it is more important for the movies to each make sense on their own than to align with one another.

The three Siths interpretation of ESB makes sense on its own. Vader hopes that Luke would join them and the three of them would work together for a while, then after years of training when the combined power of Luke and Vader surpasses Sidious, the two of them together can overthrow Sidious. Vader's plan seems beneficial for both himself and his son. In addition, his plan isn't glaringly obvious; Vader can hope that Sidious would believe that Vader was truthful about his goal: having the three of them together in one team. It sounds like a feasible goal.

If you accept that ESB already contradicts with the PT and then look at ROTJ, you don't really have to worry about that contradiction anymore. We want to avoid more contradictions between the PT and OT if possible, but there's no point trying to avoid one already present from ESB. If we go down this route, then Vader's actions in ROTJ (helping Sidious convert Luke) make sense, with or without the command spell.

Well Luke doesn't actually do that. Vader is trying to convince him that his only hope (no guarantees that this would work, but without this there isn't the slightest hope) of saving his friends is using the power of the dark side to defeat all who dare oppose him. Or at least that's how I interpret it.

Can you clarify what you think Vader was hoping for in ESB when he tries to make Luke angry? I think you mentioned earlier something about using Luke's hatred against him, but I'm not sure how exactly that would work without letting him kill.

I agree that in ROTJ, Vader should know that it is possible that Luke can defeat him if he uses his hate. It appears that they are at approximately the same caliber, which means the fight can go either way. Luke did attain an upper hand when he kicked Vader down the stairs (Luke was already in angry mode at that time, he just calmed down later), but that doesn't guarantee the final victory. I think Vader was just willing to take a risk here. It was his only hope of overthrowing Sidious in future, as well as saving Luke's life.
I also suspect that Vader's performance up until the kicking down stairs part might have been suboptimal. Luke did sense Vader's conflict, so it is possible that this inner turmoil negatively affected his ability to fight. Perhaps Vader was telling himself that if he just focuses on the fight, he can still defeat an angry Luke.

 

Luke took back his lightsaber because of the news of the trap, not because of Sidious's gleeful comment about his anger. The latter actually delayed Luke's action, and also made him turn off his lightsaber at one point during the fight.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence.

 

But it definitely wasn't Sidious's intention for Obi Wan for survive Order 66, come back to Coruscant, use Padme to find Vader, permanently cripple Vader, and take the baby and train him/her into a righteous Jedi. He was expecting Obi Wan to die on Utapau. The clones there received the same order (Order 66) as the ones who successfully killed Jedis.
If all Sidious wanted was to get rid of Padme, I'm sure that with all that power he has, he can figure out a way to make her die in childbirth without Vader finding out that he did it.

 

Perhaps. Palp's ability to see the future depends on how it serves the plot, but the novelizations refer to seeing many potential outcomes. Palpatine doesn't seem to surprised with Padme's Mustafar arrival, but seeing how he'd already planted the seeds of doubt in Anakin's mind to the point of him choking her before Obi-wan appeared, it's likely the plan would have worked either way. So, again, Padme going to Mustafar isn't a problem.

 

I feel that if Sidious was disappointed about Obi Wan only getting knocked unconscious instead of dying, his facial expression would be a look of frustration or anger. But his actual expression, to me it looks like he is actually very worried.

These quotes seem to center on the fear of loss causing Anakin to make the wrong decisions, as opposed to one wrong decision (killing the Tuskens) making him stuck on the dark side forever.

The movies don't really show much of why Dooku turned. One thing I noticed from the private interaction between Sidious and Dooku at the end of AOTC was that they appeared to be almost like equals. Dooku doesn't kneel down before Sidious, but just barely bows. And unlike Vader who consistently addresses Sidious as "my Master," Dooku alternates between "Master Sidious" and "my Lord." It looks like Sidious is pretending to be very respectful to Dooku. Note that this is after Dooku had already turned, and Sidious is still acting nice. I'm guessing that back when Sidious was convincing Dooku to turn, he probably made some grand promises to him.

This contrasts with how blunt Sidious was with Luke. He literally says in his face, "With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant." That's really not tempting.

 

Driving a wedge between Anakin and Padme doesn't mean he wants Padme to bring Obi Wan to Mustafar to duel Anakin.

In the excerpt from the novel you posted, Sidious stopped smiling when he sensed Vader's danger.

 

Indeed....I also posted who wasn't the danger...

...and who was...

 

Yes, Obi Wan is the danger, but Padme (unknowingly) brought him there. My original comment was about Sidious being overconfident that Order 66 went perfectly. Because of this overconfidence, he made two sloppy mistakes:
1. He let Anakin travel all the way to Mustafar alone. If he sent a battalion of clones with him, they could protect Anakin in case any surviving Jedi managed to find him somehow.
2. He didn't bother hiding Padme (from the Jedi) despite knowing very well that she was Anakin's greatest weakness. Had he done that, Obi Wan (or any surviving Jedi who happens to know about her secret relationship with Anakin) would not be able to use her against Anakin in any way or take the baby(ies).

Granted, the probability of that happening was quite low (hence I use the term "overconfident" here, as opposed to "delirious" or "demented"). But still, he should have been more careful during such a critical time. The Empire was new and unstable, the Jedi were just massacred, and Vader had just barely started training in the dark side and was thus still vulnerable. Sidious should make every effort to protect him.

 

Well, he did kill the younglings prior to this, and he did choke Padme with his bare hand. The future cannot be read with absolute certainty (despite Palpatine's claims), but yet the plan must be instituted at some point regardless. Besides, Vader was intended to be used against any Jedi who did survive the purge, such as Ahsoka. The clonetroopers can only do so much.

 

Me tooo.

 

The tasks Sidious gave Vader were all within his capability to complete. There was no one really powerful left in the Jedi Temple when Vader attacked (most of the powerful Jedi were on other planets, and Sidious just killed Windu and three others), and he sent thousands of clones to assist Vader with that. He thought it was safe to send Vader alone to Mustafar because none of the separatist leaders were fighters. But he overlooked the possibility of one of the more powerful Jedi (such as Obi Wan) surviving the ambush from the clones and attacking Vader on Mustafar.

If all he wanted was for Padme and Vader to turn against each other, he can just arrange for her to find out about the atrocities Vader committed (without letting Vader know that he intentionally leaked the information to Padme) and she would confront Vader. Sidious can choose a time that he sees fit to do this, likely sometime after the Empire has been stabilized, and when he himself is free to act (not in the midst of dueling Yoda) in case anything goes wrong.

 

Well, he did sense Anakin was in danger of something....he just didn't know what the danger was.