Why does so much of the Fandom think so poorly of Etain?

No, I realize that psychomtry isn't something the Jedi are incapable of just that... well... Jusik's not capable of it as far as it's concerned in all of the RC books thus far, right?

 

Well he was barely a knight when he left, and if it's something 1 in a 100 Kiffar (where does that number come from?) can do intuitively, I imagine it's not a particularly difficult skill to learn.

 

Like all Harmun Kul people are Force-sensitive?
And all Hutts and Toydarians are Force-resistant?

Please stop trying to apply other-species abilities to a non-member of that species. The question is how many non-Kiffar in the Jedi Order or other Force-using sects have we seen?

The better question is, how or why did Jusik (if it is him) learn that skill if he had already left the Order by that time?

 

it's just as easily a genuine Kiffar.

 

With such a close relationship to Etain and Darman's son, Venku?

 

They are.

They are.

Huh?

Well, none, but it's said to be a Kiffar trait in the comics, and it's taken as a given that they're going to need a Kiffar in order to do it in Sacrifice.\

Sure.

 

This was more my point. There is absolutely NOTHING AT ALL in Sacrifice which indicates that Jusik is the Kiffar. None. There may be theory, supposition and innuendo about it but the fact that it's taken at face-value (and Wookieepedia says it as fact) is, frankly, silly at the moment.

You, BobaMatt, said above "Well he was barely a knight when he left, and if it's something 1 in a 100 Kiffar (where does that number come from?) can do intuitively, I imagine it's not a particularly difficult skill to learn." meaning you were trying to apply a Kiffarian-trait (Psychometry) as a general function of all other Force-users which, y'know, is never the case with any other Force-users we've seen for the most part (which you tend to agree with yourself with your comment we've not really seen ANY non-Kiffar who can do psychometry).

Jusik is Human, not Kiffar, so I was trying to point out that the fact that 1-in-100 Kiffar can do something is wholly irrelevant.

Now, having said all that, I'm not willing to rule out that it WAS Jusik posing as a Kiffar but, thus far, no one has provided any proof on the subject in this thread...

 

Is this true?

All Haruun Kal are Force sensitive. So are all Jedi.
All Hutts/Toydarians are resistant to mind tricks. To a degree, so are Jedi.
All Miraluka can "see" without their eyes. So can all Jedi.
All Vornskrs can sense Force presences around them. So can all Jedi.

In fact, most species with inherent Force ability don't have special skills so much as merely the traits of Force users. This makes sense, of course, because they're not trained in the Force so much as born aware of it, so they wouldn't have any special "skill," per se. Some members of these species can then learn further skill, and others only have enough sensitivity to scrape by with their survival tricks; that is to say, not all Miraluka become Jedi, but they're all born with enough to walk around without bumping into things.

Apparently - it's been a while - Luke does something similar to psychometry in Courtship, and White Eyes seems to be able to do it, too, in reading the datachip. If I'm not mistaken, we've heard of Jedi touching objects and being struck by visions or disturbances.

 

You might be able to say the same thing about K'Kruhk. I'm hoping we get some more details on his Dark Times to Legacy life sometime in the future.

Yeah, but Scout was supposed to embody that classic case of someone working hard and using the resources they had to overcome their weaknesses, something similar to Etain's progression in HC. I think the difference is, though, that Etain's just a more flawed person. We're being shown a case of someone not only with less than stellar Force ability, like Scout, but with a weaker attitude and personality. Scout didn't have that.

 

Well, that's kinda my point. If Etain is meant to be a weak, insipid, overly-dependent and totally unsympathetic character, well, my hat goes off to Karen Traviss - mission accomplished.

But if she was meant to be someone I should sympathize with well, there's a problem there.

 

One problem with Etain is that we know how misguided her whole act of getting cozy with the clones is. We know the ending. If we wouldn't, many might be more sympathethic towards her.

She reminds me of one character in Armistead Maupin's San Francisco books who in one of them becomes a follower of that nice pastor Jones who has that charming colony down in Guyana. After that, I couldn't see the character in the same way anymore. And that's how I feel about Etain too, she's down there in Mandoland with pastor Skirata in the RC books, and I can't sympathize with her. Blaming the (future) victim? Yes, but it's impossible to forget what those clones will soon do and so she becomes irritating character.

 

Possibly because the author doesn't even think too much of her abilities as a Jedi...

 

Interesting.

 

Gotta go with Boba Matt here. I think that Saint Skirata will, OF COURSE, not have clones that turn on their beloved Jedi Mascott!



I think it'd be a much more powerful work if Darman killed Etain out of loyalty to the Republic but Karen can't seem to concieve that the Clones should be BELIEVERS in the Republic. Are they slaves of the soon to be Empire? Of course, but they know something you don't...

They'll be the Slave-Catchers soon.

 

Wait...where does that start to be sarcastic? Before or after you say you agree with me?

I agree on every single point, hence I find Rouge's point to be interesting: Etain - and Jusik - may seem stupid to us for being so loyal to the very people about to slaughter them and all their friends. It could be that our knowledge of the outcome colors our perceptions.

 

Wait...where does that start to be sarcastic? Before or after you say you agree with me?

Skirata and Clones will probably rescue Etain or try to and fail to save her but save the baby. Karin has all but beaten us over the head with the fact that his clones are nothing like the rest of the Grand Army of the Republic and their relationship with Etain is unusual.

I agree on every single point, hence I find Rouge's point to be interesting: Etain - and Jusik - may seem stupid to us for being so loyal to the very people about to slaughter them and all their friends. It could be that our knowledge of the outcome colors our perceptions.

Etain and Jusik are an interesting pair because they're both very uncomfortable with a Republic that's about to become the Empire. This would, normally, be a very good thing. It's the height of tragedy that the Jedi served the people that ultimately destroyed them.

Yet, strangely, neither of them inspire a shred of sympathy from Jedi lovers. Their fans tend to be those who already dislike the Jedi.

It's perplexing since even I don't know why that is.

 

What does that have to do with my finding Rouge's point to be an interesting one to consider?

I am, again, unclear as to how your post relates to mine.

 

Let me rephrase...

I agree on every single point, hence I find Rouge's point to be interesting: Etain - and Jusik - may seem stupid to us for being so loyal to the very people about to slaughter them and all their friends. It could be that our knowledge of the outcome colors our perceptions.

I was pointing out that I think it's a bit ironic. I think it's as much that people dislike Etain and Jusik because they're disloyal to the REPUBLIC as they are loyal to the ruthless Stormtrooper/Mandalorians that are the bad guys. The irony is, the Stormtroopers are being oppressed and they're being disloyal to the Empire.

See where I'm going with this?

I think "Our side" being the Republic & The Jedi in the Clone Wars has a lot to do with it.

 

Ah.

 

Obviously, I can't speak for anyone but me, but I like ALL of the characters. I've never understood the 'us vs. them' mentality between the Mandos, clones, and Jedi. I enjoy reading the NJO and LotF, as well as the Jedi Clone Wars books (Shatterpoint comes to mind), but I'm also a huge fan of the RepCom books (if no one noticed ). I like Jusik and Etain as much as I like Luke and Mara. I like them BECAUSE of their failings as Jedi, because it shows that the Jedi aren't all cookie-cutter, flawless uber beings. On the flip side, I occasionally LIKE to see the uber-Jedi just goin' out and takin' down the Dark Side. Each story has it's place, and I don't think any are more or less valid.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I do actually think Etain (and Jusik) are both great characters, whether or not they're good Jedi. I like reading the stories, and when it comes to buying a book, isn't that the whole point? But then again, everyone's not required to like the same things, either....suum cuique

 

Gotta disagree there. Before Fi was "KIA" I was initially under the impression that Darman and Fi would disobey Order 66, and Niner and Atin would carry it out. But when you take Fi out of the mix, and throw in Corr's ingrained loyalty, I definitely think that the majority of Omega will carry out the Order.

 

I, too, find this an interesting notion and one I hadn't considered.

It's not where I'm coming from (as I'm viewing this only as a Etain-as-bad-Jedi route) but I see where you're coming from. One thing though: we see Obi-Wan being at the forefront of colne/Jedi relations and also being one of the first to be wearing the Mandalorian armor -- why would we not have the same feelings towards him, or is that because he's, y'know, ZOMG OBI-WAN!

 

Several things come to mind: First what you describe is only a small part of what we know of Obi-wan, things that most people don't usually associate with Obi-wan when they think about him. But the relationship to the clones is essential to the character of Etain and most of times, when I think of Etain, the clones come to mind immediately. She is to a large extent tied to them.

Secondly, Obi-wan does keep certain distance with even those clones he gets to work with often. That's of course part of his personality, he's like that with most of the people he knows. Etain doesn't. If we forget Darman, her relationship to the rest of the clones she works with is closer than that Obi-wan has to the clones he works with. She cares for them and it makes her act in ways that don't make her a good officer, even when those actions probably make her a good human being. Obi-wan can pretty calmly sacrifice clones when he think it's necessary, like in the first scene of ROTS. Can we imagine Etain acting similarly?

Etain is a not-so-good Jedi who thinks that she has found something better with the Mandalorian culture. Obi-wan is satisfied being a Jedi. The problem with Etain is that she has become fascinated by the culture and ways of people who will - if we count the clones Mandalorians, more or less - likely kill her and who will certainly kill many of her comrades. If Etain would have been interested of some other culture, I think that her situation would get more sympathy. Obi-wan can wear Mando armor, but he will never become reborn Mando, we know that, so we do not give much importance to scenes like that. They are harmless, unlike Etain's.

Then there is the final, perhaps most important thing: Obi-wan survives, Etain very likely dies, killed by the clones. Clones which she has for several books grown closer with, part of whose heritage she has adopted. She could have left the Order she has become disillusioned with, but she stays because of the clones, whose side she has chosen. Only to be eventually killed by them. And knowledge of this makes it irritating to watch her development, because we know that she will very likely loose her life because of this growing fascination with clones and the Mandalorian culture. And Obi-wan survives. He outsmarts the clones. Wins.

 

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Which may be more problematic than it at first appears to be, as it regards his relationship with Anakin.

But more from circumstance than any foresight. Obi-Wan trusts the clones as much as any other Jedi apart from Vos, and even that paranoiac Kiffar was taken by surprise. That Kenobi was not killed can be considered chance or the Will of the Force rathen than a result of his presumed detachment. Further, there's the case of Bardan Jusik, who apparently manages to survive quite handily despite being even further immersed in the Mandalorian culture than Etain is.

I think the problem is really in how Etain expresses her attraction to the Mando way, not the fact that she is attracted to it. Perhaps if she was less a pathetic, wishy-washy Charlie Brown-type, reactions might be different. As such though, it's rather difficult to effectively emphathize with her without feeling slightly stupid.

 

If Etain does happen to get killed by the commandos in K.Traviss' Order 66 & if Jiang is the only Null ARC that we see is still around in LotF & if Ordo has clearly threatened to kill her in the past, then what are the chances that Ordo actually did it, inadvertilly causing the 1st & biggest rift within the bonds of brotherhood that the RC's all seem to share?

After just being reminded that Fi is indeed "K.I.A." & knowing how psychotic Ordo is but at the same time the most beloved of Kal's children & looked up to by all the other RC's I'm really hating myself for predicting him to be the bad guy but the hints & signs are showing me that he's going to be the one to kill Etain, if she is going to die.

This whole "mothers dying before getting to know their kids" recurring SW theme has got to stop, it's very depressing.