Why has Zahn fallen out of favour?!

I was going through the Lit Archives few minutes ago when I foung this from a guy named Stilgar in the "Discrepancies & Foul-ups.....Zahn style" topic:

"Why the New Republic will fail? Because in order to generate new scenarios for plots conflict will be introduced into the novels. This is hardly a far fetched idea as others in that thread have noticed this has been happening before - just about every novel has the Republic on a brink of catastrophy, too often artificially and unreasonably so. This is after all what started the thread. Now. Zahn has taken it even further as I explained. So, with a weaker New Repubic plagued by internal conflict and with the Jedi who are supposed to support it no longer anywhere near as powerful as they used to be (as has been rewritten by Zahn), the New Republic will fail. Why? Because Zahn will make it fail, or in more detail to make it apparent how this answers my question, because the SW universe has been rewritten by Zahn so that the New Republic is preapared to fail, so that Zahn will make it fail in a novel or two."

Here's the link if anyone wants to peruse the rest:
http://theforce.net/forum/Archives/Archive-000006/HTML/19991016-3-000387.html

It got me to thinking. It wasn't until the HOT that we were given a fracitous and flawed NR. In all the books previous the NR is healthy, strong, and united. Not in all things obviously (see BFC) but everyone saw the benefits of being united. Where did this idea that democratic/repulican unions are inherently unworkable come from? Why are the authors still embracing it?

 

CountJared...
"Where did this idea that democratic/repulican unions are inherently unworkable come from? Why are the authors still embracing it."

It was always there from Zahn's TTT beginnings. It did not originate in HoT.

That would certainly be another reason why Zahn has fallen out of favor. If people have found that democratic/republican unions can work and therefore would tend to find tremendous flaws with the way he writes such political entities.

 

Eclipse...
"Secondly, although Zahn may believe that he didn't revive SW, too many people, myself included, had our interest in SW piqued by TTT."

It is a perception vs. reality problem. A few of his overzealous fans have a perception of something that is not the reality. For one, Zahn knows more about the circumstances of his books than anyone else. We can all hopefully assume he was not lying when he says (to paraphrase) that he was simply in the right place at the right time.

Therefore, that's yet another reason why he has fallen out of favor. When fans overcome their emotional attachment leftover from a decade or so ago and understand Zahn's assessment of the popularity of TTT, then they'll realize he is no "god."

 

CountJared asked: "Where did this idea that democratic/repulican unions are inherently unworkable come from? Why are the authors still embracing it?"
It came from real life, from history. Look at real history, Europe and the Near East after the fall of the Roman Empire; Eastern Europe after the breakup of the Soviet Union. In both cases the intertribal feuding that had been going on for untold ages among the diverse tribes, clans, and cultures was, temporarily, suspended during the repressive regimes of both Rome and Moscow. Once that imperious presence was removed, once the ?common enemy' was gone, the old feuds, vendettas and dissensions returned.
The same thing happened in the GFFA once the Empire faded and was no longer feared. The Old Republic ruled for a very long time without the galaxy seeming to fall apart and without (one might think) being repressive. But as we can see from the events of Episode 1 and in some of the backstories in the EU, the ?Golden Age' of the Republic was not all that pure and shining. There was corruption and dissension, Palpatine took over quite easily. Of course most of the current leaders of the New Republic have a starry-eyed view of the late lamented Republic and are not really prepared for the reality of running a diverse Galaxy.

Why have the rest of the authors continued along with Zahn's very logical ideas? It makes for good story telling. Part of the "problem" with the Bantam stories was that the NR was TOO good, Too efficient, Too well liked.
Not very believable, not very interesting.
A government that rules with no real problems, no real opposition is just a boring, storywise, as heroes whose power knows no limits.

 

Eclipse, I see it this way: Zahn was the RIGHT author, in the right place at the right time.
I shudder to think what the EU would have been had Vonda or Barbi been the author "in the right place at the right time."

 

Eclipse is absolutely right. How Zahn feels on this matter is irrelevent; what matters are the feelings of individual readers and for me Zahn gave a far more enjoyable universe, more that I could draw from than I could ever get out of GL's "vision".

Now to backtrack a bit. Obiwan bidding adieu to Luke in Chapter 2 of HttE. This had to happen sooner or later, Genghis. Obiwan was no longer a part of the phisical world, therefore, it stands to reason that he would have to leave it at some point. Anyway, I believe it would have been a poor move to keep Obiwan around in the novels, the ability to use him as a crutch may tempt some authors. You could see a scene in every book like this:

Leia: "What are we going to do about it Luke?"

Luke: "I don't know; guess I'll have to ask Ben for advice again."

Luke calls for Obiwan, he appears and gives Luke advice on how to defeat the latest threat, just as he has done on countless occasions.



I shall comment on Democracy next.

 

I've always felt the idea of a pan-galactic government was a little implausible, Republic or Empire. There are just too many peoples with too many opinions. It's the same reason the US is a Federal Republic and not a democracy--direct democracy doesn't work on a huge scale. Splitting power among the states makes sure that everyone still has some say. The New Republic, the Old Republic and even the Empire are so much larger, the idea that there'd ever be general consensus on anything is implausible at best. With the Empire, they rule by military authority, but if ONLY the humans are part of the military, then if most of the worlds wanted to openly rebel there really wouldn't be much the Empire could do to stop them. As for the NR, unless the Council rules and only consults the Senate on occassion, realisitcally they'd never be in agreement. And if the Council rules, then they're back to a semi-dictatorial system. The idea that thousands of systems and millions of worlds could ever come to a common ground has always been unrealistic to me, and that's why the problems that started in HOT have always made sense to me.

The idea that, after what he pulled in TTT, Borsk Fey'lya could EVER end up as COS, however, does not....

 

GAW...
"Now to backtrack a bit. Obiwan bidding adieu to Luke in Chapter 2 of HttE. This had to happen sooner or later, Genghis. Obiwan was no longer a part of the phisical world, therefore, it stands to reason that he would have to leave it at some point."

He did. He left the physical world at the end of ANH. He returned in non-physical form in that very same movie as well as its remaining sequels - ESB and ROTJ. Note, in those sources, we never get a sense that he is "too far away" no matter which planet he appears on, whether it's in the Death Star trench, Hoth or Dagobah.

Now, take that with the fact that no other ghosted Jedi has exhibited signs of doing that, whether it is Rahn, Brand, etc. Obi-Wan's absence was a leftover plot device for a plot point which was unacceptable - the use of Obi-Wan's clone. I don't doubt the power that such a tie has within such a story. However, now it is simply an anomoly that should not exist without the plot of Obi's clone.

"Anyway, I believe it would have been a poor move to keep Obiwan around in the novels, the ability to use him as a crutch may tempt some authors. You could see a scene in every book like this..."

Any faults you may have with other authors isn't a concern here. It would be their problem if it is used as a crutch. Now, it's a larger problem that he hasn't been used at all. He would provide for a perfect level of continuity within the EU between PT, OT and EU that can't be matched by any other character based on Obi-Wan's importance in the first two items.

You're essentially saying we've been penalized based on your belief that some unknown/unnamed future author may have possibly used the character as a crutch!?!

We deserve better than that, and so do the authors whom LFL approves to write their stories.

 

And exactly what purpose would Obiwan serve other than continuing in his role as a spirit guide? Luke had to become his own man at some point.

 

GAW...
There are literally limitless ways he could be used, especially in respect to any plot links between the old ways and the new ways. He would especially be an interesting character to use in DelRey series, a series which as its title contains "New Jedi Order."

It is rather disturbing that a major character can simply be dismissed in such a manner. I say again, it perhaps may have had a reason - and a fairly important reason based on literary merit and plot construction - if Obi-Wan were a major part of TTT through the use of a cloned Obi-Wan. But, that point was deemed unacceptable. Some would point to laziness on Zahn's part to keep in related plot points which then lost all meaning.

 

I'd like to go back to the professionalism point of contacting prior creators. We know that after Zahn, LFL did not leave it up to the individual authors, since RAS tells us as much in the interview...
http://theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/salvatore1.shtml
"One of the criticisms I noticed was...you didn't use enough of the prior EU events and characters. Did you feel that was necessary or perhaps didn't need to cover every character?
"RAS: Comments like that, [such as] where Rogue Squadron was, or where Wedge is, or where Tenel Ka is, where's Lando's wife, I've heard a lot of that... and when Lucasfilm saw it, they said: "This looks like Nom Anor from CRIMSON EMPIRE" ...They sent me that [information]. They put me in touch with the creator, and we found a way to make it work. That's the beauty of shared worlds right there, where I'm creating things that are already in existence and they say use this instead."

We can assume that part of the reason why LFL would start putting authors of a new work in touch with the creators was due to the hack job performed by a recent author who did not use such professionalism and courtesy to contact people to get things right.

It is LFL's job to make sure things are right about their universe (characters, events, etc.). So if an author is not taking it upon himself to get it right, LFL needs to step in. It seems that just before RAS did his work, there was another author who did not follow such professional conduct and did not get things right. That is, a major duology was released where an author did not contact prior creators as was typically done by nearly every other author, and therefore gave inaccurate accounts (intentional or unintentional) of prior events.

It's no wonder that LFL began facillitating communication between creators right after VotF.

 

Well, if that is indeed the case, Ghengis, why wouldn't LFL had taken it upon themselves to cgange things around that they saw as showing "disrespect" to other works? It certainly would be within their power to do so.

 

GAW, Do you recall any Jedi spirits that stuck around after death other than Obi Wan and (briefly) Anakin Skywalker and (even more briefly), Yoda?. I mean real free ranging spirits, not like Callista stuck in the computer. I've read the Jedi Apprentice book thru #10 and I don't recall any ghostly Jedi spirits. Kun's spirit hung around for centuries but that was probably a Sith/DarkSide thing.
Ben's hanging on for so long would seem to be an exception rather than a Jedi norm.

 

GAW...
"Well, if that is indeed the case, Ghengis, why wouldn't LFL had taken it upon themselves to cgange things around that they saw as showing "disrespect" to other works? It certainly would be within their power to do so."

What do you mean by "change things?" You mean have them issue a free one-page addendum that bookstores would hand out...
"VotF Addendum:
Buy Dark Empire for the true story behind Mara Jade's words"

They're a business more than anything - it is a major undertaking to revisit things that have already slipped through the cracks. Not everyone is blessed with George Lucas' personal fortune to redo 20 year-old movies. The Essential Chronology was a major undertaking (5 years +/-) to do. While "special editions" of several SW books (including TTT and HoT) would be welcome, it is most likely impossible due to resources available.

 

The Republic lasted for upwards of 20,000 years. It must have been doing something right. So that just tells you how "realistic" ANH was.

Now I'm not of the mind that everything was hunky-dory after RotJ, but I felt that our heroes were on the right track to a fairly happy ending. They had freed the galaxy from tyranny and would soon unite it like the old Republic.

A lot of people accuse DE of trivializing Anakin's sacrifice at the end of RotJ, but I see these latest books as negating EVERYTHING our heroes did in the trilogy. They saved the galaxy and destroyed the Empire only to have a big extra-galactic threat come along 20+ years later and lay waste to half of the New Republic. Is the galaxy better off because of what they did in RotJ? Is it better off because they stopped Thrawn in TTT? Is it better off without the Empire? If it wasn't for these books I would say unequivocally yes. But with the YV added to the picture does any of it really matter?

 

CountJared, I agree that bringing in the ex-gal threat of the big bad Vong was a stupid move. I thought you were complaining about Zahn showing that all was not sweetness and light among the NR leadership and some of the planets that had been feuding before the coming of the Empire.
I think there were several volumes of interesting stories yet to be told of how the diverse beings of the Galaxy could learn to get along. How the NR could insure the continued existence of small, unimportant cultures, how they could keep certain factions from strong arming the weak and powerless. Something the Jedi Knights had done for thousands of years under the Old Republic.
If you look, you can see the Old Republic starting to unravel in places before the coming of Palpatine. Look at the Corporate Sector. Look at some of the problems Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan tackle in the Jedi Apprentice books. Look at the public relations problems the Jedi were starting to have.
The Republic of the prequel era is not the same Republic of the golden age. I think it is much larger and growing all the time. Maybe it reached a point where there was just too much to be ruled in the old ways.

I would have liked to have seen stories of how Leia and the new Jedi could have re-established the glory days of the Republic.
The way the Senate and the Council are being portrayed at the beginning of the NJO is a bit overboard, but the way they are now, with the Vong playing factions against one another is not so far fetched. This is what happens in wars.

As for that slimy Bothan, well, look at some of this world's elected leaders.

 

Dewlanna...
"I would have liked to have seen stories of how Leia and the new Jedi could have re-established the glory days of the Republic."

That could very well be another reason why Zahn has fallen out of favor. I have to agree with you - it would have been nice to see Zahn carry on with established continuity like the Alliance of Free Planets, who were on the way of bringing back the glory days. Unfortunately, it was Zahn who derailed that from happening with the New Republic incompetance of the TTT and his distancing from the unity of the Alliance of Free Planets among other things.

People may have seen what could have been.

 

It was LFL and DR who decided to ignore the story started by Zahn in HoT and go with the easier to write hackneyed big bad villain. Zahn set up a realistic situation that was disregarded in the rush to make big bucks off the TPM fans.

 

But even Zahn in the HOT had the disparate parties come together in the end to fight of the threat of the Empire. He presented a problem (possible dissolution of the NR) and resolved it.

 

Dewlanna...
"It was LFL and DR who decided to ignore the story started by Zahn in HoT and go with the easier to write hackneyed big bad villain. Zahn set up a realistic situation that was disregarded in the rush to make big bucks off the TPM fans."

I think that's so far from the truth with respect to LFL and DR. Some of the accusations thrown at both with respect to their work is way-off-base and boggles the mind. There's nothing to back up such accusations.

LFL & DR did not ignore any existing continuity and/or story started by anyone. For one, the entire big, bad villain of the Vong menace was continued from Nom Anor's trouble-making methods in CE. It was a reasonable continuation, especially in light of the fact the GFFA has a precedent for both extragalactic and extradimensional invaders already. That plot was not started by Zahn, as there have been a number of cases of unidentified threats kicking the butts of the GFFA. In fact, it is Zahn's ignorance of such prior continuity that has left the hole with respect to that plotline. There were ample prior creations which could have been used to fill his "unidentified threat."

However, his lack of knowledge regarding those are not entirely his fault. LFL shares some of the blame for not helping to walk him through his ignorance of continuiy. In the same way they helped connect RAS with prior items like Nom Anor, Kyp, etc. they should have helped Zahn too.

 

CountJared, the problem was still there, it was just the threat of the common enemy that kept them from each other's throats. I wanted to see how the NR was going to keep things together after the Empire's power had faded. How they would keep the peace in a time of peace.
But instead we got the Vong. sigh I guess the powers-that-be thought that true reality would be too much for some folks to understand so they had to bring in the absurd

 

What I meant by change things was for LFL to have taken care of some of these matters in the editorial process. Clearly LFL is not as overprotective of Dark Empire as you are, Genghis. A situation which is perfectly satisfactory to me, since I see DE as nothing more than simplistic rubbish.

 

"It was LFL and DR who decided to ignore the story started by Zahn in HoT and go with the easier to write hackneyed big bad villain. Zahn set up a realistic situation that was disregarded in the rush to make big bucks off the TPM fans" - Dewlanna

"There's nothing to back up such accusations." - Genghis

Actually there is alot to that "accusation"... If you go and talk to Stackpole, Allston, and Zahn you'll see that they proposed to Del Rey and LFL a story that used the Chiss to defend the galaxy from a threat that could origionate either in the unknown or extra galatic areas. A threat that Thrawn knew was coming.

This was one of 3 proposals on the table. According to Del Rey, Kevin J. Anderson had submitted an outline also. Basically what happened was they took the 3 ideas, brought them to Lucas and he worked them into the NJO.

As for Zahn's continuity... I appreciate his ability to catch up with the story line and make it work. The "disrespect" shown is via the characters, not through him preaching. It was part of story and is the story now. IMO the New Jedi Order is an excellent display of continuity and attempts at keeping a focus. (this is something that has not been done before)

Lucas approved the NJO (acording to many sources).

Zahn out of favor? Not really. Its only with a few malcontents.

 

GAW...
Okay. I think LFL Continuity Editors do the best job they can do, but they can't catch everything (case in point all of the continuity problems between canon items up through TTT and HoT and even up to todays' products). In fact, if the mistakes didn't even exist, they wouldn't have a job to do (but I'd say that's definitely asking too much of an author - they're not all die-hard fans) Could they do better - sure. Have they let problems slip through - sure.

I think that's probably why they now make a point of trying to help connect authors/creators, post-Zahn. Clearly the first line of defense is the authors themselves. If they can catch things in the story-creation process then mistakes won't exist for Editors to even catch them.

I think that's why such contact between authors is the standard practice (KJA's and Kathy Tyers' "I want to get it right" comments) and a part of a professional author's conduct and courtesy. It's a shame that not all authors follow such practices, and it's especially a shame in the case of Zahn.

It's something that almost has to be written into contracts with something like the Star Wars franchise. After all, lack of continuity seems to be one of the major issues levelled against a fans dislike of a SW product. It's something that comes up whether one is dealing with Bantam, Del Rey, the past or the present.

But again, I think the blame lies both with the author for not being informed about what they're using and Continuity Editors who are the final defense against such mistakes.

If everyone followed the same general practice of KJA, KT and nearly all other SW authors save Zahn, then the jobs of Continuity Editors are made so much more easier.

 

But your missing a major point. You cant just use KJA and Tyers as examples... they didnt communicate with Zahn did they?

Zahn and Stackpole have become best friends and are always communicating. Alston was even in on the communicating! Now if we could have gotten ALL OF THE AUTHORS to communicate, it would have been better. We cant just pick on Zahn for it.