Why was Darth Vader not beyond Redemption but Palpatine and Exar Kun were?

This is just a thought but why was Anakin Skywalker/Darth not beyond being redeemed (Redemption) but other Sith Lords like Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious and Exar Kun could never be redeemed and turned back from the dark side of the force?

Why was Vader able to see the light at the end of the tunnel and turn back to the Light Side but Palpatine could not? or Exar Kun who still had connections to the jedi? Ulic Qel Droma was able to repent and turn back to the light but Kun was not, even though he had hope as long as he lived just like Droma did.

Even Sith Lords like Darth Bane and Darth Krayt could be turned from the dark side if the proper person or event moved them enough, yet they are portrayed as being totally beyond being able to be redeemed and turned away from evil, as if Darth Krayt cannot remember that he was once A'Sharad Hett and that he had a father that he loved that taught him things correctly and that the Jedi Order and the Tuskens welcomed him as an equal, surely some of the surviving Jedi that now know his past could redeem him by talking to him about his past when they knew him as a young Padawan Learner and Jedi Knight.

And even Darth Bane had a trace of humanity in him, he had a life before becoming a Sith Lord and friends too, he also showed sympathy for Rain when he took her as his apprentice and raised her instead of finding a troubled adult to manipulate.

Why are some Sith Lords beyond redemption while Darth Vader was not? Even the ROTS Visual Dictionary says that Palpatine does not consider himself to be evil but rather a savior, even George Lucas said that Palpatine does not view himself as being a bad man, he thinks that he is doing what is right for the good of the galaxy even if the price that the galaxy has to pay will be too much.

So by that logic even Palpatine could be redeemed because he wasnt evil, he was simply doing things the way that a Sith Lord would do them, according to Sith morals and ethics.

 

You don't have to overthink it. The same reason Jacen was beyond redemption. He was entirely content being evil and a pure monster.

Beyond redemption isn't a mystical state. It's a mindset where you are at peace with being a monster.

 

No at all.

Darth Vader attained redemption because he knew what he was doing was evil. He just needed evidence that he could stop doing evil.

Palpatine thinking he's good means that he's beyond redemption because he has no motivation for it. He thinks he's good so he doesn't need redemption.

In order to use the power of the darkside, both Palpatine and Vader needed to hate something. Palpatine hated the Jedi while Vader hated himself. Nobody could convince Palpatine that the Jedi weren't worth hating but Luke was able to convince Vader that it wasn't worth hating himself.

 

I dont think that Jacen was beyond redemption, because Jaina felt their bond again, that was evident to me.

 

Where did it show Palpatine or Exar Kun showed any remorse or goodness? Vader was never truly a Sith. He did bad things, but he felt guilt and was trapped by his handicap. He was not really a sith at heart, though he did have anger, he also had love and compassion. Palps was devoid of anything but hate and rage and evil cruelty.

 

Palpatine is much like Voldemort..

You could plead with them to turn their ways around but they see themselves as beyond that.

 

Vader is one of the most terrifying Sith of all time.

Just because Revan and Ulic were redeemed doesn't make them less Sith.

Dooku had goodness too but he was Sith.

 

My opinion is that you are beyond Redemption if the only thing you care about is yourself. Because then there is nothing to hold you back from doing whatever it takes to get what you want.

But if you value anything outside yourself: an ideal, a person, etc, then there's hope for you.

 

I agree with your assessment. I think of them as dark jedi, not a Sith. Like say Bane, or Palpatine.

They still had the ability to know right from wrong. Maybe they were very into power and got off on the rush, but afterwards, it was like, Oh man, did I do that?

With Palps, it was like, The Universe is mine, I am God, and I have the right, I deserve to do as I please.

 

The comparison between Anakin and Jacen's fall has always been interesting to me. In a nutshell:

Anakin fell to the dark side because he loved a person and was afraid she was going to die (emotion).

Jacen had this entire end justifies the means appraoch that relied on logic and saving the galaxy.

I don't think Anakin ever intentionally sacrified what he loved and destroyed his essential goodness.

I think Jacen did.

 

It's all about conflict. Vader, Ulic, Zekk and other fallen Jedi who turned back to the light felt conflict for the duration of their time on the DS.

Once you're a dark sider, and completely content to be so, forever will it dominate your destiny.

 

Yes, but Palpatine and Bane are sociopaths AND Sith.

The Sith aspire to being beyond Good and EVil and so on, however Exar Kun was aware of the differences as well. He just felt they were meaningless to the greater good of recreating the Sith Empire.

 

revan was not entirely evil either and was redeemed. but malak was beyond redemption.

 

Revan was beyond redemption the way I played it haha.

Malak showed signs at the end that maybe the "words of the Jedi had more truth in him than he cared to admit." But that's not really the same as redemption. Malak was a thug, plain and simple who just seemed to like to inflict pain and hurt people. However, we know that wasn't always the case. Who knows if he had conflict or not....

 

Vergere's 'theory' to Luke Skywalker in Destiny's Way was that Palpatine was a genius who clinically, meditatively unlocked the evil within him and chose darkness because he saw it as a greater means of achieving his ends.

 

I think the Dark Side never obliterates all the good in people.

Beyond Redemption just means, it's unlikely that present circumstances can reach it.

 

"Relinquishing absolute power over all living beings, to save the most helpless and useless souls? THAT is redemption for you? You are more utterly pathetic than even I imagined.

It is actually the dark side which allows for redemption, and the chance to destroy completely those who wronged you!

If someone cut your hand off, next time, redeem yourself through POWER and SLAUGHTER HIM FOR IT!"

-What a real Sith would argue.

 

You either become the Master of the darkness within you, or let it be the master of you.

That's the difference btw Sidious & Vader.

 

I think that those that were redeemed did not utterly and completely embrace the Dark Side. I'm talking a little shred of nagging doubt, true compassion, or love somewhere deep within the person. Vader's encounter with Luke was enough to nurture that doubt into redemption as was Ulic's killing of his brother. To be a Sith Lord that could never turn to the light, you would have to be someone so completely self absorbed that there is absolutely NO ONE whose well being you care about on an emotional level. You need to know for sure that there is not a single being in the galaxy whom you wouldn't slay for any price, any prestige, any advantage. If Palpatine killing Vader meant he gets a younger and more in tact apprentice, so be it. If Vader killing Luke gives him the power to make Palpatine kneel before him, he doesn't do it.

Darth Bane's actions towards Rain are hardly sympathy. She was a tool. A means to an end. If she were an unarmed Lightsider that was weeping but somehow would have minutely had a negative effect on Bane's overall plans....she would have been DEAD. One as young as Rain is much better as an apprentice. An older "Troubled" apprentice could be more likely to get ambitious before the time was right and end up making Bane kill them. Those are wasted years for Bane. Keep in mind that as Bane taught Rain the Sith Sorcery she flat out told her that if she tried that crap with him he would end her. Judging by the fact that Rain had every chance to kill Bane or let him die but is disciplined enough to know she hasn't learned enough yet, he made a good choice.

I'm not sure Exar Kun the Jedi cared much about anyone, except perhaps his Master. He didn't so much as flinch when cutting him down. Besides, Freedon Nadd karked him up in some way when he healed him.

It's possible that Darth Krayt may be redeemed down the line. That story is not yet told.

I think Caedus could have been redeemed because of Alana. Mind you, that doesn't make the Jedi wrong for planning to and finally killing him. It could have been YEARS and Millions of bodies before they found out how to properly push his buttons. They had the ability to stop Caedus and stop the killing. This is different than the Luke/Vader confrontation, of course. Palpatine and Vader needed to be stopped but Luke didn't really have the ability to take down both Dark Lords. He took a gamble and won.

 

Bam. Got it.

 

I think it mainly comes down to whether the person likes being evil or not, or rather, whether they view themselves as evil or not.

Vader, well, after Episode III, we saw he had issues, but wasn't a galaxy-conquering tyrant, but he would become one for Padme's sake, but after she died, because of him (indirectly, maybe, but it was still his fault), well, Vader can't really deny that and he hates himself forever for that. When I think of why Vader could be redeemed, I think of that conversation on Endor between Luke and Vader. Luke's not in a lot of physical and emotional pain, from losing his hand and finding out Vader is his father (not to mention shattering his image of Obi-wan), and Luke's already given himself up, and they have a pretty civil conversation. Vader says its too late for him, that the darkside is more powerful, but its never said with the same cackling "I love being evil!" maleovolence of Sidious. Sure, Vader taunts Luke later on, but Vader never kills Luke, despite having the chance to do so. Heck, at the end of ESB, when the Falcon escapes, usually some Imp officer drops dead at that point, but instead Vader just silently walks off the bridge, so its not quite normal anger on his part, but more like regret. That regret I think is one of the major reasons why Vader could still be saved. Also, I think instinct plays some part in Luke's attempts. He could sense the good in Vader, as Luke said, the Emperor hasn't completely ruined Vader, even after two decades. True, Vader's soul is very blackened, but there's still light. Like darksiders who arranged that Vader vs. Maul fight said, they felt there was still too much light in Vader, and of course, they eventually turned out to be right.

Palpatine, well, we don't know his background, and honestly, I hope we never do, I'd like for it to stay mysterious, but from Episode III, he's laughing as he's battling Yoda, as he knows he's mostly won already. He rules the galaxy, a huge majority of the Jedi are dead, betrayed by their troops, and he has a near-perfect apprentice. Even dangling from a Senate pod, he's still laughing maniacally. He probably understands good and evil, but he just loves being evil.

Exar Kun... well, he was always screwed up, he was always going to fall, especially as its been repeated in the KotOR comic recently, Master Vodo had a warning that Exar would fal, but he didn't act (and honestly, killing someone for future acts wouldn't be that good either), but Exar craved power, and he got power. 4,000 years trapped, and he's still power-hungry and corrupt.

And as mentioned earlier, Caedus might've been salvagable, through Allana, but it could've taken years to figure out how, and anyway, right now, nobody felt he could be saved, no instinct, no hints or visions from the Force nothing. Luke was working partially on instinct that Vader's could still be salvaged, but of course, in LotF, Luke couldn't really be that objective either. Ben felt he could save Tahiri at least, and he did, but Jaina never really felt that Jacen was salvagable. Even if Caedus still valued Allana and Tenel Ka, when he felt their lives were in danger and Jaina showed up, he tried to kill her then go save Allana, though Jaina wasn't really listening to anything Caedus said either (but that's just another of LotF's problems), but he was trying to kill her too. His last moments were spent warning Tenel Ka, but there was no regret at his actions. He had nearly won, and had to be dealt with now, and he believed in his cause, not to mention he was gloating a lot too. That's why I think he was unredeemable, ever.

 

We actually know Palpatine's backstory for the most part.

It's actually good there isn't a attempt to humanize it.

Like Darth Maul, he was made a monster.

 

Something we have not seen is a trained since birth type monster turn to the light.

Would you consider it safe to say that a child strong in the force taken by a Sith Lord to be an apprentice will definitely turn out to be a Palpy/Maul type monster?

There is the Ajunta Pall (Spelling?) thing but rejecting your Dark Ways after you are dead with your spirit anchored to a spot in an empty cave doesn't count.

 

If The Force Unleashed is anything to go by, the answer is no, not definately.

 

coz Revan, Vader & Caedus embraced the Sith ways for the greater good. For a price. Unlike Sidious & Darth Kun who only thinks of their own agenda