Why was Vader under Grand Moff Tarkin?

Vader is in second command. What is the perpuse of having a Sith Apprentice if your not going to put him second in command.

 

Vader is Not second in command. Period.
Nothing in any film even hints at such a thing.

You're making it up in your head, and that's all. It's a fanboy dream without anything to back it up.

 

"Vader is in second command. What is the perpuse of having a Sith Apprentice if your not going to put him second in command."

Well, lets look at the movies. As I se it, Vader's purpose is to be the Emperor's enforcer, the one who takes care of the dirty work and oversees important missions. There really isn't more to it than that.

 

i don't know, ask Palpantine cause that's exactly what he did, his apprentice Vader had no rank or station.

he was not "second in command", vice emporer or anything of the sort.

i wonder if you even believe this, or just threw it out there to stir a hornets nest because you didn't even attempt to back it up intelligently.

Just stated it like it should be an obvious fact to everyone.

Vader seems to have a special station, and might be able to succeed the emporer if he died while vader was relatively healthy but because he lacks rank or the athority you want him to have he'd have to fight for that throne.

Few other than possibly the imperial navy would just follow him without question and i believe a lot of senators and possibly Moffs would fight him for that throne.

it's no where near as simple as your post seems to think.

 

While we're on the subject, does anyyone think that the Emperor has a whill? (or how its spelled). And if so, does it say that Vader is the heir of the throne?

I know that the EU states that the Empire fragmented without the Emperor, but Vader was dead then. Quite possibly Vader would be the only person to be able to hold it together. Most people feared him, and we saw what happened to the foolish few who disrespected him (Motti, Ozzel).

Maybe this should be a thread of its own, about wether you think Vader would be able to hold the Empire intact under his leadership. Of course, all we can do is speculate.

 

If anyone is really interested in this topic, here's an old thread where this was really hashed out, more bluntly titled, "why was Vader Tarkin's lackey?"

http://boards.theforce.net/classic_trilogy/b10002/20145379/p1

And here is my post from that topic.



I think this is a great thread, there are some really good points being made! I think that the relationship in ANH between Vader and Tarkin is probably being a little over analyzed as far as rank goes however. The most important thing to remember is that the Emperor has complete control over everything, he doesn't need any input or opinions or concensus. Everyone knows it's his way, period. At the top of the imperial heirarchy, there is probably a complete rat race to do his bidding in the most efficient manner. As a result, when Vader arrives on the Death Star he is dealing with someone who since the end of ROTS has been in charge of the Death Star so obviously must be some one the Emperor is happy with.

Tarkin is in complete charge of the Death Star but he and Vader are completely independent of each other. Neither is anyone's lackey or subordinate, except the emperor's. Tarkin is part of the imperial beuracracy and Vader is like his own executive brach of the govt. entirely. And there are no checks and balances between these two "branches" of govt. because they both are completely subserviant to the Emperor. When Tarkin orders Vader to release Motti, it's not showing his rank over Vader, it's showing his rank over Motti, that is to say, "I'm in charge here, you can do what you want while you're here, but only to a degree, don't go around killing my top men!" And the choking here is completely different than in ESB. In ESB, it was based on poor performance by the officers, in ANH it was based on a personal attack on Vader and the Force. Indeed, the only reason Vader probably responded to Motti was that he believed that the Emperor would not stand to hear the force insulted either. When Tarkin stops him, it may remind Vader that the Emperor is different than Vader in that he is kind of like 1/2 beauracrat and 1/2 Sith, as he needs to be to run the empire. Vader is all action. The reason Vader just follows Tarkin around most of the movie is that he doesn't have anything else to do. He catches the ship, interrogates Leia, battles Ben, puts the homing beacon on the Millenium Falcon, and goes out into space to do ship to ship combat for crying out loud. He is not a beuracrat!! He is the Emperor's strong man, helping Tarkin. Could you picture him reading over progress reports and criticizing Tarkin's management of the Death Star? He doesn't even have a seat in the "board room" scene.

The best thing about his relationship with Tarkin in ANH is that it does show them somewhat as equals, which emphasizes the point that there is only one top guy, who's never shown. There is no 2nd in command, everyone is completely under the Emperor's control.

 

good post, i like the way you see that R2QT.

i am not sure i agree with them really being equals, i don't disagree, i will mull that one over for a bit and see.

in a lot of ways i see them as equals, they are each commanders of seperate missions that intersect at the point of destroying the rebels.

It seems to me there are people in this thread who want to see Vader treating Tarkin the way he treats the Admirals in ESB.

I agree with you that this would actually be grossly out of place in ANH, Tarkin is a Grand Moff with serious status and obviously a track record of competence and accomplishments.

The best compairison to the situation, while not completely accurate is to see Vader as performing a similar role to the one Darth Maul performed in TPM when he went to join the TF.

Like Maul, Vader had a specific mandate that intersected with the mission of the force he joined, but other than that fact that their missions served a common cause they were acting independently.

i also think it is very significant that those who want to see Tarkin being subservient to Vader get very upset about the board room scene but ignore the conversation between them after the falcon "escapes".

Tarkin asks about the homing beacon and if they are away he also comments to Vader, "I'm taking an aweful risk Vader, this had better work".

This shows that at a minimum Vader is taken very seriously by Tarkin, seriously enough to have Tarkin risk his life and career to follow Vader's plan to accomplish their common task.

that is not the act of a man dealing with a "lacky" or subbordinate.

 

My opinion on Darth Vader being second in command in the Empire:
(Dark Lord Novel)

Light years distant in his inner sanctum, Palpatine leaned toward the holotranceiver'scam.
"But you will demonstrate to them the peril of independent thinking, Lord Vader, the refusal to obey orders."
"To obey you, Master".
"To obey us, my apprentice. Remember that."

Wookiepedia also lists Vader as the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Navy. Which, of course, means he is the number one military guy. If this is correct, then Vader running his own branch of government coupled with the fact that he is Sidious's apprentice, he is the CLEAR number two. He also flies in the flagship of the Imperial Navy, Executor, and has the license to do whatever he wants. I'm sure for those that knew Palpatine was a Sith also saw Vader as the clear number two man and heir to the throne.

Many people chose to look at Vader outside the Imperial ranking structure (no idea why). Even if he was, and he was just sent by Palpatine to do the tough assignments, his jurisdiction would top any man in control (the guy on DS2 he meets in the hanger). He answers solely to the Emperor. Also, I don't even consider ANH canon anymore, the movie needs to be fixed before I ever watch it again.

 

ANH does not need to be "fixed". What is it that you don't understand?

Vader being the supreme commander of imperial military is EU, and a fact that I don't like. Vader's much more mysterious if he is just "the Emperor's agent", a position of uncertainty.

Yes, Vader is powerful, and he may even be the second most powerful man in the Empire. That does not mean that he is the official second in command, or that is all powerful.

Tarkin is a Grand Moff, and a person who has been a loyal and competent servant of the Empire for decades. Vader is certainly not Tarkin's subordinate in any way, nobody is claming that. I am merly argueing that since Tarkin takes his orders only from the Emperor, and so does Vader, that kind of puts them on the same level. Vader knows in how high regard Palpatine thinks of Tarkin, and "I must obey my master".

Didn't you read the Return of the Jedi draft from 1981-82 that I posted? That, if anything should clear up the authority of the Grand Moffs IMO.

It's funny that you mention Jerjerrod, because event though he is just a Moff, he clearly shows Vader's lack of authority. As we se, Jerjerrod does not do as Vader says, instead he complains about the order being unreasonable, hinting that Vader's power even over Jerjerrod was somewhat limited. It's only when Vader says that the Emperor is coming that Jerjerrod submits to Vader's command.

The only thing in ANH that would need to be "fixed" is the line: "She'd die before she tells you anything!" because, as stated, its way too disrespectful coming from a simple liuetentant. I'd dub the line with "But she'd die before she tells you anyhting My Lord.", and also have him say it ina more polite tone of voice.

 

Any more statements about ANH not being "canon" in this thread will be considered baiting, and are totally off limits.

Go to the Future Changes thread if you wish to talk about things that need to be "fixed" in ANH.

 

It doesn't matter who's second-in-command. Short of Darth Sidious himself, Vader can kill whomever he needs to. Tarkin's "release him, immediately" was just posturing in front of the other bureaucrats. Vader shrugged it off with a sarcastic "as you wish", joking at Tarkin's authority. If Vader felt truly insulted, as he did by Ozzel, he would have lopped off Tarkin's head right there at the table, and nobody in the room, or the entire Death Star, could/would have done a single thing about it. Vader may or may not have been Palpatine's choice for number 2, but he certainly wore the Emperor's authority alongside his lightsaber. I doubt Palpatine even had a choice for his replacement. He was the Empire, as he saw it. He probably thought he'd live forever. If anything, Luke was the first person to come along that he'd consider worthy to sit on his throne. I doubt he'd select some sniveling Senator, Admiral, Monarch, Dignitary, Ambassador, General or Egghead to follow him. He was Dark Lord of the Sith first, politician second.

 

Wow, we view that scene very differently. Jerjerrod is very respectful of Vader I believe. You can see he is frusrated and worried. Jerjerrod has been around Vader before, he probably has seen Vader numerous times. But when Vader reveals that the EMPEROR OF THE GALAXY is coming, is gets very serious. It's just show that Palpatine is thought of very highly, more feared than Darth Vader. Lack of Authority? Vader takes away Jerjerrod's control over the construction of DS2. Jerjerrod doesn't submit to his authority when he learns the Emperor's coming. Vader gets off the shuttle and simply tells him that he is going to put him back on schedule. Are you going out of your way to make Darth Vader look bad? Your really reaching here. As for your deleted scene, I put no stock into that whatsoever. It was deleted for a reason and is non-canonical. It has no bearing on this arguement at all. GL didn't want it in there because Vader would be Force choking him in half a second after some of those things he said to him.

 

Well, Vader did end up killing Jerjerrod in that draft draft eventually, but only after he learned that the Emperor and Jerjerrod had captured Luke without his knowing. And the Emperor nearly chocked him to death in punnishment, althought that might have ben more for the fact that Vader defied the Emperor's commands.

I'm not going out of my way to make Vader look bad, I love the character. Its just that maybe some people let their love go to their heads and ignore what's on screen for us to se. Because the Vader I se (yes even ESB) is an enforcer. And not much els.

I would also have to disagree with one of the posters above. Yes, no one on the Death Star would have done a damn thing if Vader killed Tarkin, but the Emperor would have his ass. This is not some random no-name admiral we're talking about here. This is Tarkin, one of the most powerful men in the Empire, the commander of the Death Star and a direct servant of the Emperor. Palpatine would never accept it if Vader killed him, and Vader would never dare to disobey his master that blatantly.

Now, about the scene with Jerjerrod. Maybe I'm reading to much into this, but still: Vader didn't say to Piett "the Emperor is not concerned with asteriods, he wants that ship", he said I want that ship", showing the difference. Vader is clearly Jerjerrod's superior and can kill him if he really screws up, but it seems that he can only pas on orders from the Emperor, not make up his own orders like he does on the Executor.

This is the way I se it:

Admirals and generals: Vader can give them pretty much any order and kill them on a whim if it suits him, unless some other higher-up has a different idea.

Moffs: Vader can only give orders coming from the Emperor and can kill them if they seriously fail or commit treason.

Grand Moffs: Vader cannot give them any orders whatsoever and can only kill them with a direct order from the Emperor.

 

i have been reading this for a while and i notice that you put no stock what so ever in anything that contradicts your view on this. Drafts, concepts and actual films are all to be cast by the way side if it doesn't fit a view that simply has been made up in your imagination.

you are right about Jejerrod, but he's a Moff, Tarkin is a Grand Moff. The athority level is different, maybe Tarkin is wrong but he certainly believes he's in charge in ANH and Vader does nothing to make the audience believe otherwise.

that's what i see on film and i don't have a problem with it.

Ultimately Vader is a lacky, he's Palpantine's lacky and that's really all i see in the films. I don't see Sidious ever elevate him like the book quote you threw out earlier, btw that's far less canonical than many of the examples that have been used to refute your possition.

what is or is not legitimate is not determined by weither or not you accept it as showing vader in the light you want to see him in.

if you wish to stick to the films only that's fine but as i see it you were the one who started using the book dark lord to support your possition against a film, that early draft is just as legitimate as the book for this argument.

 

Like I said, I can't see Sidious, the supreme Dark Lord of the Sith, taking sides with a Moff over his prized protege. He saw Anakin grow up, watched him grapple with the Tusken slaughter and his loss to Dooku, watched him grow as a Jedi Knight during the battles of the Clone Wars, knew about his personal life and relationship with Padme, spent more time with him than anyone in the galaxy, watched him turn to the Dark Side at the expense of the Jedi, and turned over executive authority to Vader during Order 66, granting Vader the authority to kill the Seperatists and lead the assault on the Jedi Temple. He is Palpatine's favored disciple. There's no way he'd take sides with a bureaucrat who's just filling a position. There's nothing in any of the films that indicates that Sidious thinks any higher of these guys than Vader does. They're necessary, but Governors, Generals, Admirals, Envoys, Senators and Bean Counters are easily replaced. A Sith Lord is not, especially now that most Force users have been killed.

Of course, Palpatine has no problem offing Vader if he can replace him with Luke, but that's the nature of the Sith.

 

Yes, I agree with you on this. Tarkin is CLEARLY in charge of Vader on ANH. I will never disagree with that. But I think GL would make sure the relationship was shown differently if it came ouit today. That's why I will never pretend that I listen to the movie and Vader is sarcastic with Tarkin or they are equals and Vader is simply respecting Tarkin's terrority. NO,NO,NO. It's not like that at all. GL had Darth Vader as a random general in ANH and Tarkin could order him around. Simple as that. Everyone seems to just treat Vader like some random, semi-important guy in ANH. You can't refute anything I just said.

I don't believe I am streching here at all. Have I said anything outragous? I don't think so. I am giving you the FACTS on Darth Vader. The way some fans post on Vader sometimes I think it's nothing more than a petty campaign to smear Darth Vader's reputation.

I don't wish to stick to the films. I am fimilar with EU. Bring up EU, I have no problems with it. Like I said earlier in the EU Vader has the title of Supreme Commander of the Imperial Navy. Top military guy. I think your last comment is very, very wrong. The Dark Lord novel is the second highest level of canon. A scene that was written in the first draft of ROTJ and NEVER appeared in the movie or any aspect of that relationship, is ridiculous to even talk about. It isn't canon. It never happened. So what if in the first draft GL wanted Vader to respect the position of Grand Moff? Ok, if it was in the movie I would agree, but it isn't. You know why? Because it doesn't fit in with the rest of Darth Vader's character.

I agree, Vader could have killed Tarkin. Vader could kill anyone. What was the Emperor going to do? Palpatine needed to continue the legacy of the Sith, so he would never kill Vader for killing Tarkin. But in the same respect, Vader isn't a moron. Yes, he has a temper, but he isn't going to kill all the military higher ups. He knows for the Empire to be successful he can't have himself and a bunch of guys fresh out of the academy.

 

Well, then that's your loss. I have no problem watching ANH and imagine that Tarkin and Vader are equals, it never really seemed like a superior-subordinate relation anyway. It's true that Tarkin gave Vader a direct order, but Vader gave one to Tarkin too, remember? "Escape is not his plan. I must face him. Alone!", pretty much ordering Tarkin to stay out of his buinsniess.

That's also why Lucas made Gunray in charge in TPM and had him a have a sort of semi-control over Darth Maul. The difference is of course that Gunray was a coward who would never be as bold as Tarkin was. But I think it's clear that he meant to mirror the Tarkin-Vader relationship.

sith_rising, I would agree with you on any other officer or burocrat (sp?), but just not Tarkin. I don't like to involve EU but if we do, then the Emperor has known Tarkin for longer than Vader. Anyhow, Tarkin is at least the third most powerful man in the galaxy, the most powerful Grand Moff AND the commander of the Death Star. This tells me that the Emperor really likes Tarkin. And so what if Tarkin only fills a position? Vade fills a position too, and I can't really imagine Palpatine growing attacthed to anyone. He will side with the one who has the opinion that benefits him the most IMO.

For instance, if Vader would have tried to stop Alderaan's destruction, the Emperor would most certianly have sided with Tarkin. Or at least that's how I se it.

 

Vader is never really a minor character in SW. His helmet is part of the background of the original poster. Like the ultimate
boogeyman-face, a galatic menace. However I believe from the way it sounds the Emperor gave orders to Vader to work with Tarkin. When you
first see Tarkin he reports about a communique he seemed to have recently had about the Emperor disbanding the Senate with Vader following
behind him into the conference room. imo it's much like Vader having to work with Thrawn. Tarkin seems to be the military genius while it seems to be emphasized that Vader was a jedi warrior , last member of his "religious order". Tarkin was well aware that letting the rebels get away with the Death Star plans was dangerous, "this had better work Vader, i'm taking an awful risk". Of course he didn't believe the power of the force could enable an X-wing pilot to pop off it's torpedoes in an "impossible" shot. "You overestimate their chances!".

Wesn't there some last minute changes to let Vader survive at the end? He was going to be blown up by Han Solo in the original script? but early screen
tests showed him to be a most popular character among the audience.

 

I think the radio dramas are frequently cited as canon and in them Vader questions Tarkin's decision to destroy Alderaan, it goes something like this;

Vader: Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner sytems, the Emperor should be consulted!
Tarkin: Do not think to question me, you're not dealing with Tagge or Motti now, the Emperor has given me a free hand in this- the decision is mine!

It really strikes me as a little funny that people want to make Vader out to be the real uber-villian when part of the reason GL cites for making the PT is to show that he is not such, that title lies with the Emperor. The idea that the Emperor and Vader are somehow partners (eg Vader as 2nd in command) is ridiculous, it's like saying Palpatine's opera buddies are next in line to the throne because they share his love of music. How much did he cry over Maul, or Dooku? Vader is a pawn, a powerful, but nonetheless, pawn. Completely replaceable and disposable. The entire reason of rule of two is that one sith would be happy to be the only sith, but they can't resist the efficiency that an apprentice knowlegdeable in the the force would be, so they train one. Only one because they know two would gang up on the master. After the one is trained he's a great asset, an enforcer of the master's will, but that's all, he's not like a psuedo-son or new emperor in training. He's a means to an end, period! Evil like the Emperor isn't concerned about the propagation of the Sith or his legacy, he has no heirs because he doesn't care what happens after his death. He is evil incarnate in the SE universe, and part of evil is selfishness.

 

Just a thought...Lackeys generally don't get their own personal Super Star Destroyer....The EU statement that Vader is in charge of the entire Empirial Navy is grounded in what we see in the films...Vader is clearly the one giving the orders to the Star Destroyers in both Empire and Jedi. Tarkin was in charge of the Death Star, and while on the Death Star, Vader had to treat Tarkin accordingly. However, that does not mean Vader was Tarkin's lackey, by any means. If an Air Force General is visiting an Army General's project, he is of course going to defer to the Army General. Vader isn't going to question Palpatine's judgment leaving Tarkin in charge of the Death Star anymore than Tarkin would question Palpatine regarding Vader being his Sith Apprentice.

We must also keep in mind, that Palpatine didn't take over the galaxy merely out of his own personal egotism, it was ultimately for the glory of the Sith. Even Palpatine had a "higher calling". Vader would be next in line to rule the galaxy, clearly, if the motivation for domination was for the Sith, and not for the glory of Palpatine. Maul was a brute, devoid of the skills necessary to do it...essentially, Maul is a hitman, nothing more. had Anakin not existed, I have little doubt that Dooku indeed would have been Palpatine's second for a long, long time. Dooku was educated, skilled in the Force, and had a powerful personality. Basically, Dooku would have made a great successor to Palpatine. BUT, then he realizes how powerful Anakin really is...its only then that Dooku's downfall is certain. Vader has the background. First, he has the Force. Any successor to Palpatine would HAVE to be strong in the Force.

He is a highly successful military commander, even before becoming Vader, which we find out in the prequels. Palpatine needed to be strong in diplomacy to achieve his goal of creating the Empire, but to maintain it would require an iron fist....Vader possesses this both literally and figuratively. Any deferrment of Vader to Tarkin is due to professional respect with each of their missions, not because Tarkin had the power to order Vader around.


Think of the Empire like the Vatican. The Empire, if you think about it, is a totalitarian theocracy. Sith teachings aren't forced on every citizen of the Empire, but the head of the Empire is not only the Chief Executive, but also the head of a religious sect. Palpatine would be the Sith "Pope", the ultimate authority. Tarkin would be like the chief administrator, or mayor of the city, the beaurocrat who runs things to make the city run smoothly, and if the Administrator suggests something in regards to the actual running of the city, the holy men will listen, because thats his area of expertise...but, when the Pope dies, he isn't succeeded by the beaurocrat, he is succeeded by a Cardinal. Vader is the Cardinal.

 

Everyone except the Emperor is a lackey in the Empire, and subject to his will. Vader and Tarkin just happens to be powerful lackeys.

Anyway, George Lucas says that they are on equal footing, so I think we should leave it at that.

I do agree with the above poster that Vader would suceed the Emperor if he died, but as long as he lived things were different.

 

Well, Vader was also a Imperial military officer or executor. He had less power in there than Tarkin. Darth Vader wasn't in charge of the Death Star or any of the Star Destroyers, just his own. He was one but many commanders just the Dark Lord Executor. He cant talk back to Tarkin or Palpatine.

 

up

 

Vader had the freedom to crush Tarkin like a bug and he could talk back to any Imperial Officer and order them around all he wanted as long as it did not conflict with the Emperors plans. He just didn't see any reason to crush Tarkin since Tarkin had not failed the Empire yet. But had Tarkin survived Yavin he would surely have been choked by Vader.

 

Towards the end of ROTS, there is the scene with Vader, Palpatine, and Tarkin aboard a star destroyer, overlooking the Death Star construction. I'm thinking at that time, Tarkin had been in the senate, and was a Govenor. He moved up the ranks when the Empire was born. Being in the senate, and the military, I would think Tarkin would be more experienced in the ways of the military and how things worked. Anakin had been a jedi, been involved with various battles and such, but wasn't an offical part of the military really. Well he became Darth Vader at ROTS, but Tarkin had already been an officer at that time. I guess what I'm getting at is I would think Tarkin had seniority over Vader from the very beginning. Tarkin was in the miltary, Vader was a sith, of the sith order. Two different factions, if you would ask me. Tarkin was older then Vader, more experienced. I think Vader respected that, and I think Tarkin did outrank him military-wise.