Would Padme have died if Obi-Wan hadn't snuck on board her ship?

Yes, and did Obiwan say "good job, that's the jedi way to use a girl as bait"? No, he said "You're using her as BAIT!" as if Anakin had done a terrible thing that was NOT the jedi way. Obiwan proceeds to reprimand Anakin for his choice on the matter and explain to him that it's really dangerous and Obiwan's speach is interupted by the millipede things.

Sure, face to face is good, but he should have been there with her. That way if Anakin tried to hit her he would have stepped in immediately. Instead, he's standing on the top of a ramp 30 feet away yelling "let her go (I'm too far away to do anything)".

Yes, a lot of the fault is the Jedi's. As Yoda had said, they had become arrogant and blind. Obiwan was arrogant enough to use a pregnant woman as a pawn. He used her as BAIT just as Anakin did in AotC. He should have realized that she came within an inch of dying that time. This time, she did die.

 

Just cause he knows that they came out of Hyperspace and landed, doesn't mean that she went to Mustafar. She could've realized that he had stowed aboard and was waiting to bust him. He had to wait to be sure. He's a Jedi, not omnipotent.

 

Would Padme have died if Obiwan hadn't snuck on board her ship?


sooner or later, yes.

 

NO....Yoda said that in the novel. A scene that wasn't filmed for the movie should not be used as leverage. If this was such an important element Lucas would have found someway to include it in the film...somewhere.
Ya know...that dialogue is about irrelevant as the lost 20 speech in the AOTC novel.
I know people are quite found of this little Yoda speech...and I'm sure I'll hear that Lucas approved the book after I post this...but the fact remains. It's not in the film.

 

Hey, I'm not trying to justify his actions. I just find it hard to believe that a Jedi would willfully send a pregnant woman to confront a child killing psychopath instead of trying to keep her safe. All I'm saying is that Obiwan wasn't "squeaky-clean" in this situation. At the most, he should have had her and Anakin confront Anakin together. Instead he's at the top of a ramp watching while Anakin is choking his pregnant wife knowing that Anakin was capable of it all along.

 

Anakin would've attacked sooner if they both came out at the same time. Obi-wan might've waited to see if she could get through to him, so they wouldn't have to fight. There was nothing that he could've done that would avoid something bad from happening, short of trashing her ship and taking a Jeid Starfighter to Mustafar, after getting the location of where he was. However, she would never willingly tell him and waiting for him on Courscant was out of the question.

 

Obi-Wan doesn't "send" Padme to face Anakin; he tried preventing it, and she wouldn't listen. Whether he knows she's meeting with Anakin or not when the ship lands is up for grabs. Anakin didn't sense Obi-Wan on the ship; so it's very likely Obi-Wan didn't sense Anakin either.

What we do know is that he does actually end up saving her; we should be glad he appears on that ramp, we should be glad he's even on the same planet. Because i think we can all agree that Anakin wasn't about to let Padme walk away from him; and had Obi-Wan not been there, then goodbye Luke & Leia. Goodbye OT.

- O_F

 

I don't think so. Although he's not omnipotent, he IS a Jedi master and has done MANY missions of infiltration. He would have known what was going on by experience. The fact that he let her leave the ship to confront a childkiller by herself with the truth that she now knows is something that is far below what a gentleman should do let alone a Jedi Master.

 

Why is it that so many threads degenerate into "let's bash Anakin, or let's bash the Jedi, or let's bash Obi-Wan, or let's bash Padme, and on and on." The movies are intended to show that various people or groups made mistakes and the combination of all events resulted in the degeneration of the republic and rise of the empire. But it is quite obvious that GL makes Anakin/Vader his main villain and his betrayal of the Jedi and turn to the darkside and back is the key to the whole saga. Sids/Anakin/Vader have to take most of the blame for the events in the movies. That's not to say that others didn't make misjudgments or errors - they did, but I think everyone realizes who GL intended to be the bad guys here, the Sith.

 

Never intended that. All I'm asking is how it would have turned out if Obiwan actually stopped Padme from getting off the ship (even against her will) and saved her life by dealing with Anakin himself? What would have happened if Obiwan actually made a copy of the holocam recordings of Anakin killing younglings?

The irony of the story is that Anakin's sole purpose of going to the darkside was because he wanted to save Padme and yet he kills her. Wouldn't it have been ironic as well if Obiwan was the one that actually saved Padme? Even by doing something so simple as to give her proof of her husbands condition instead of using her as bait?

 

1 - Saving Padme is not Obi's main concern. The Sith needs to be eliminated or the whole galaxy is in trouble.

2 - Padme died of a broken heart from seeing what Anakin had become. That would have happen if Obi never showed up.

3 - This is a veiled attempt to blame Obi for Anakin's actions. So many fans of Anakin have done this in many different ways, all trying to not hold Anakin 100% accountable for his own actions.

 

"This is a veiled attempt to blame Obi for Anakin's actions. So many fans of Anakin have done this in many different ways, all trying to not hold Anakin 100% accountable for his own actions"

YES YES, glad someone else is saying it. Why the need to explain
away everything Ani did is beyond me. Fangirls who think he's too
hot to be to blame maybe? lol

 

Again, this NOT a veiled attempt to excuse Anakin's actions. It's an attempt to study what "The Jedi Way" really is. We've got Jedi forming a plot of treason, Mace taking matters into his own hands and attempting to assasinate Palpatine instead of having a trial and lastly we've got Obiwan sneaking on board Padme's ship and letting her go out and confront a child-killing psychopath by herself. This thread was not created to hide Anakin's dark deeds or pass the blame. It was created to study where the line between "for the good of all" and "what is the honourable thing to do" is.

Anakin joined the darkside because he wanted to save Padme and yet he causes her death. Ironically, Obiwan willfully allowed her to be put in that position...just as he allowed Anakin to be put in the position of spying on the Chancellor. If Obiwan had done everything in his power to protect Padme, would the outcome have been the same? If he did the "honourable thing" would it have actually been for the good of all?

Luke could have killed Vader in RotJ. If he did, it would have been for the good of the galaxy but instead he did the honourable thing and refused to kill his own father...DESPITE what he thought of him. His actions for the good of ONE, ironically, SAVED the galaxy. Ironically, if Mace Windu did the honourable thing and didn't kill Palpatine, Anakin wouldn't have caused his death. RotS is full of scenes where people are doing things for the greater good AND for the good of one person and yet the end result is destruction. If Obiwan didn't chose to use Padme as bait and a pawn, would things have turned out better?

 

The Jedi know how dangerous the Sith are for the galaxy. They are trying to get them from hiding. Treason? There duty is to protect the Republic, even from itself if need be.

Its not Obi's responsibility to protect any one person. We see that in AOTC. Yes, Padme is a friend, but he wasn't going to stop after Dooku, nor let Anakin go after her. The mission comes before the people. His actions in ROTS are no surprise.

Luke faced the same choice as Obi and his father before him. As a Jedi - can he strike down an unarmed man? The right choice is obvious. But you have it backwards. Luke didn't kill Anakin BECAUSE of what he thought of him, not DESPITE.

Again - why did Padme die? Not because of Anakin's attack but because Anakin broke her heart. Nothing Obi did or didn't do would have changed that.

 

Padme died of a broken heart. The bolded part is where she announces what is happening to her. At that point, she is starting to die. All this is before Anakin sees Obi.

No, Obi-Wan did not cause Padme's death in any way.

 

Anakin at that point was like another voice of Palpatine, so she probably would have been killed.

 

Yes, but I do think that the choke factored into her death. Not so much a physical choking but the fact that they both loved each other and yet he consciously abused her and tried to kill her. She said "you're breaking(current tense) my heart". I believe that Anakin actually choking her was the final straw that broke her heart in two. The choke did much more damage emotionally than it did physically (as is the case in most physical abuse scenarios).

 

I'm sure the choke didn't help but remember the basics.

Padme died of a broken heart. Her heart started breaking before Anakin saw Obi. The choke may have speeded up the process but she was already on her way out. That is not Obi's fault.

 

I disagree on that one. I don't think she would have "lost the will to live" if the choke hadn't happened. Again, she said "You're breaking my heart" which means that she is still in the process. She didn't say "You've broken my heart". Also, the physical and emotional act of her husband trying to physically kill her would have been far more devestating than anything he said before. Remember, she's perfectly healthy and she's got a baby(s) to take care of in spite of her husband going crazy. She's FAR from "lost the will to live" without the force choke.

The choke did two major things; First, it emotionally destroyed what was left of her breaking heart to beyond repair and secondly, it put her in a coma and brought about physical complications that, if anything, made things worse. I don't think she would have physically died without the force choke. It killed her emotionally and physically to the point where her battle to overcome it was too great. Lucas would not have put it into the story if it had no relevance to her dying at all if she would have "lost the will to live" without it. It's the only way that he could get away with saying that a pregnant woman could lose the will to live if she went through massive emotional and physical trauma. Emotional trauma alone would not be enough to cause a woman to give up on life and just lay down and die while killing her unborn child(ren).

 

sand-crawler, great thread.

and once again we cannot simply discuss that obi-wan was using padme to get to his end.

i don't want to repeat your whole argument. i agree with it anyway.

why is it that if ever anyone says, but obi-wan wasn't wholly clean in this scenario everyone drags out, yes, but padme is responsible for her own actions?

i think she wanted clarity for herself and he put her on the line because he didn't tell her he was on the ship. it's quite simple. if he thinks anakin is dangerous then he should take greater precaution.

and i don't accept the whole, yes, but he didn't know she had already left the ship. yeah, right. what kind of excuse is that?

 

Who choked Padme? Anakin.
Who broke Padme's heart? Anakin.
What did Padme die of? A broken heart.
Would her heart have been broken if he didn't choke her? Yes.
Why did Anakin choke Padme? Because she wasn't on his side.
Would she had ever been on his side when she saw the path he chose? No.
Would Anakin been pissed at her for rejecting him, regardless of when? Yes.
So is it Obi-Wan's fault she died? No.

 

Who choked Padme? Anakin.
Who broke Padme's heart? Anakin.
What did Padme die of? A broken heart.
Would her heart have been broken if he didn't choke her? Yes.
Why did Anakin choke Padme? Because she wasn't on his side.
Would she had ever been on his side when she saw the path he chose? No.
Would Anakin been pissed at her for rejecting him, regardless of when? Yes.
So is it Obi-Wan's fault she died? No.

thanks for the reminder.

i'm convinced anakin wouldn't have choked her, had he not suspected she betrayed him like that. and she was clueless to obi hiding on ther ship.

it's a difficult situation to be sure. but i do feel that obi-wan was putting her on the line. she only knew half of everything.

would she have gone out all the same? maybe. but she might have told him other things.

 

I have to side with SAND-CRAWLER here. While yes, Padme was being stupid and rushed out to her lover Anakin who was now a childkilling phsycopath, therefore risking the lives of her unborn babies and her own life, but Obi-Wan should have done something to ensure that she would survive this ordeal.

It's like this: Let's say you are trying to tell a wife that her husband had gone crazy. She doesn't believe you and proceeds to track him down to talk to him. What do you do? Do you just stand there and let her risk her butt trying to talk some sense into her crazy husband?

Yes, i know he probably wanted to see if Padme could talk some sense into Anakin and all, but why take that risk? Obi-Wan clearly knows that Anakin had join the Dark Side and he had gone nuts, so why trust that his wife would try to talk some sense in him?

Now, i am NOT bashing Obi-Wan or the Jedi in any way, i'm just saying that that there were other alternatives to convince Padme that Anakin had join the Dark Side. One way would be to copy the security tape of Anakin hacking at the Jedi and show it to her. It would probably have convinced her dead on. Even IF he didn't do that, he could have still stopped her when she was leaving the ship on Mustafar. Sure Anakin would have attacked, but Obi-Wan,if he were with her when she was approaching her husband, would have saved Padme immediatly, not be walking down a ramp Superman-style yelling at him to let her go.

EDIT: I'm not bashing the "Superman" pose that Obi-Wan had when we saw him on the ramp when he was confronting Anakin.

 

Agreed.

Agreed.

Not true. She died because she "lost the will to live"...something no healty expecting mother would do without a LOT of emotional AND physical abuse. She basically committed suicide by giving up on life. Anakin was breaking her heart by their conversation, but even though he was crazy he still wanted her and cared for her and she knew it....THEN came his act of trying to choke her to death....

Yes, but again she probably would not have "lost the will to live". Many people have had serious heartbreaks in life. It takes a lot, however, for them to just give up and die...not to mention an expectant mother who is a fighter and an activist.

No, it's because he thought she betrayed him and intentinally brought Obiwan with her. If he was not there. The choke may not have occured.

Agreed.

Yes. He was, but once he saw Obiwan standing at the top of the ramp the arguement went from a 9/10 to a 25/10.

No it's not Obiwan's "fault" that she died, but he sure could have done more to prevent the arguement from escalating into a case of domestic abuse. First of all, he could have made a copy of the tape showing Anakin killing younglings to PROVE to her that he was crazy and dangerous. Sure, that would have broken her heart, but not as bad as him choking her. In fact, if he showed her a tape of him killing younglings she probably would have told Obiwan that Anakin was on Mustafar. Padme would have fled into exile. Second of all, he could have prevented her from leaving the ship in the first place because he KNEW that she wouldn't join him and he knew that Anakin was already capable of killing children. Instead, he let her go talk to him and sat there listening. Then he decided to show himself and all of a sudden the arguement goes from "heated discussion " to "agressive negotiation". If Obiwan was "as wise as Yoda" then wouldn't he know that he'd be putting Padme's life in danger by letting her go to a Sith Lord alone and by making it look like she brought him there to kill Anakin?

It just urks me that he's got all this time to think and meditate in the "can" or storage compartment on the way to Mustafar and yet he thinks the best way to deal with the situation is to let Padme go out alone, wait till it's just about out of control and then stand and show himself and basically pour gasoline on an already raging fire. Everytime I watch that scene and Anakin says "Liar" I feel so sorry for Padme because she gets totally stuck in the middle of all of it. She ends up in the same place that Anakin was before with Palpatine....a pawn for both sides. She gets choked because of it and Obiwan's too far away that the only thing he can say is "let her go". If he were with her, he would have decked Anakin in the jaw the instant he tried to use the force on her.

 

and alos he just stands there like that.

i have been arguing nearly the same thing on another thread.

i think obi-wan doesn't really have a plan, otherwise he wouldn't do all these foolish things.

he stands there and basically waits for anakin to get really worked up without offering anything.

now i know why he is there, why he thinks he is there, but i think he has doubts and through obi's action anakin has just proven that he is the lunatic.

like in the council, they bring out the best in him by flat out saying, we will make an exception for you but we won't tell you why.