Years later, I still don't like the fact the Yuuzhan Vong weren't executed.

Yes, also its clear that the Workers and Shamed Ones seem to have been little more than slaves under the Yuuzhan Vong. This is shown by the repeated abuse, threats, and worse that is inflicted upon the race. It's very clear that the Vong were a tyranny that did not have a uniformity of vision. If we killed them because they were Vong, do we kill everyone who did work for the Yuuzhan Vong (even those who did so at gun point?)

I do think that it was a depressing coda to end on, though. I would have preferred something a little more hopeful. I think the Yuuzhan Vong should have been shown to have almost equal casualties or I'd have lowered the figure. It seems that Ithor is the biggest tragedy of the war after Coruscant and yet neither of them would remotely approach 60,000 Earth-sized worlds being wiped out.

 

I suppose they could always retcon it that the reason it was such a big number was because a ton of them were just some race with massive population numbers like Killiks or something.

 

Actually, an easier retcon is that government staticians don't know what the Hell they're talking about.

 

You do know a billion is less then a trillion, right?

Other then that, I tend to agree fully...the way I saw the end of the war, the truly fanatic were all dead, the rebels from the shamed ones really had the momentum of power...at least to the point that Sekot would allow.

Sekot isn't just caretaker...it's WARDEN.

But that's not just to say that Sekot was a prison to throw the key away to...Sekot was the means of healing the warped minds...and if the Jedi could find a way to take their enemy...BREAK EVERYTHING THEY BELIEVE...and rebuild their culture around more Jedi-friendly concepts...that sounds more like the Jedi way...look at Revan...why kill when you can destroy everything about someone and make them the way you want?

Wow...that really came off nasty...no doubt the Jedi have good intentions...but it IS what they are doing.

So then the question is...with justice somehow being done...which is more humane...to end life...or destroy a way of life and force a new path?

Are you really showing the Vong mercy by locking them on a planet to be "re-educated", since everything they have ever known is a violation and an abomination?

Luckily they had the mythos of Sekot in the corner of their structure, which makes it a little easier...If God tells you you've got it wrong, it's easier to change your faith I'd wager.

But still seems like a brutal test...I wonder just how tranquil Sekot was while Tahiri and others were visiting in the post war years.

 

Wow...this thread has had the quickest occurence of Godwin's Law that I have ever seen.

 

Very good argument Jedimarine. I'll address some points in a bit of a off-hand manner.

I know the context is irrelevant. It's still "A ridiculous amount of people killed by foes with no sense of morality."

Language is funny that way. Another way we could look at it is they're being redeemed.

Yet, despite describing it differently, it doesn't change the facts of it. It's merely an attempt to present the facts in a way. Specifically, that the Vong are a horrible culture to both themselves and others. Socrates certainly wanted to change society and so have many others but change=evil is a pretty dangerous idea.

This is why I'm hesitant to throw away words like Evil in today's society. They're still important as things that should not be allowed to continue and not sympathized with overmuch.

A lot of people tend to favor their physical lives over their culture.

One could be perhaps overly paternal and assume there's something inherently awesome about their "native" culture that deserves to be protected (even from the people who would change theor ways willingly). Clearly, the Shamed Ones and Workers seem to much prefer the Jedi heresy and living in a way that is decidedly distinct from their slave like conditions before.

Much like the caste system in India, interaction with other societies severely disrupted it. The first time was when a lot of Hindus were severely annoyed when most of them chose to convert to Islam rather than continue to be treated like scum. Now, in modern eras, we have the same issue where the lowest members of society are the swiftest to change.

Why? Because they objectively believe it's better for them.

Actually, I more wonder about a race that was supposedly able to conquer most of the galaxy is now reduced to being able to fit on half a single planet.

To be fair, War Trials and Genocide are unusually relevant.

 

Godwin's Law on the third post of the thread...?

In before the lock, then, I guess.

As enough people have said already, there's a big difference between methodically disposing of an entire national group because you think they're a threat to your cultural dominance, and dealing appropriately with the war criminals within a post-war settlement.

On the other hand, there's also a problem with the old socialist saw that it's just the officer class who're warmongers.

One of the most interesting and effective aspects of the NJO is the fact that - like Vader - these characters can be monsters, and still human too: Harrar reflecting calmly on performing human sacrifices in The Final Prophecy, and Traest meditating on the need to find "a final solution" to the problem of Yuuzhan Vong survival at the end of The Unifying Force (after being given an echo of Bull Halsey in the preceding hardcover).

That said, I'd also like to have a detailed look at the paperwork covering the transfer of ALL the surviving Yuuzhan Vong to Zonama Sekot. While it's possible to imagine a really high-density settlement covering the planet's southern hemisphere, especially as Yuuzhan Vong habitats are entirely integrated into a fertile biosphere....

... I'm not quite sure that "to the Unknown Regions" isn't a little bit like "to the East". The uncertainty lingers, certainly, and maybe that's the point.

I also have to admit something of a sympathy for the Yuuzhan Vong. Yes, they're crazy. Yes, they fight war like the Union Army. But they're searching for the experience of Truth, as well.



- The Imperial Ewok

EDIT: "360 TRILLION deaths"?

Firstly, that's a figure made up by the media.

Secondly, how much of the carnage were the Yuuzhan Vong responsible for?

The Fia might have allowed the Yuuzhan Vong to do their local "housekeeping" on N'zoth, but some other groups might just have taken the chance to do away with their old rivals.

We never did find exactly who assigned Wedge and all the other troublemakers to die at Borleias, did we?

And many more might have been lost due to the strategic decisions of the NR high command, which seems to have been primarily concerned to retain strategic infrastructure and combat forces, NOT to protect the civilian population of the Galaxy.

 

For me, I tend to think the Yuuzhan Vong were almost all located on Coruscant for the civilian population by The Unifying Force. The Yuuzhan Vong threw everything at the Star Wars Galaxy and by the time of the end of the war, the only thing left was the Intendent Caste ruling over warriors supervising the occupation of worlds.

When Shimmra burned Coruscant, I tend to think he probably killed the vast majority of the Yuuzhan vong race then and there. Everyone else had been killed in the constant battles to the point that only the sad and tiny remnant of their former society is left to take rest on Zonoma Seskot.

 

Charles has covered the point I thought of when I first read the thread title. Most of the remaining Vong were the workers and shamed Vong and a genocide of those innocent folks would be incredibly wrong, no matter what crimes their leadership committed. At the very least the shamed ones should have been offered asylum rather than being exiled.
Might the Vong return someday and be a threat, yes. For that matter a future Galactic ruler like Krayt might chose to hunt them down and destroy them. We don't know what their future will be and fear of the unknown can't be a reason for genocide.

 

I think fans feel mostly cheated because there's no real sense of the Vong's losses.

I'd love to hear that the Vong were about 180 Trillion people at the start of the war before they became 20 Trillion.

 

Which can be chalked up to editorial games: Let's keep the numbers of the Vong hazy, if we don't smart-arse fans will be able to work out how the war's going, plus if we keep it hazy there's always more Vong. Cue the Vong of BP: Overwhelming and loads of them, to the Vong of EoV / DW: Stretched too thin, not enough.

 

Not Earth, just llamas and Portuguese man-o'-war.

Well, they're not anymore, because the Jedi killed them all.

 

Genocide is a specific crime, generally the wiping out of a race or species. Killing Sith is simply execution in contrast. Besides, the Sith always survive and return in one shape or form.

 

I meant they're not a species anymore.

Although I suppose if you want to get technical, they weren't totally extinct until Exar Kun killed the last of the Massassi on Yavin 4, but it was the Jedi and the Republic who wiped out the vast majority of the species.

 

I tend to see it being more due to Empress Teta and the Sith Lords themselves wiping themselves out. Part of the reason the Sith keep returning is the Jedi are merciful.

 

(Classicist mode on)

So 1 in every 10 Vong died?

 

What's the quote?

 

It's just making a point that billions and trillions are different but the scope of the tragedy is really still beyond our comprehension to deal with. If a person blew up a galaxy in a society that had inhabited a million galaxies, is that person more evil than Tarkin who pressed the button to blow up Alderaan?

 

Depends on the context.

No, I just disagree that the Yuuzhan Vong had no sense of morality along with the notion they're an evil species. Again.

Oh and that's why they shouldn't have been executed.

 

I think the wiki is right:

Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. It does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

There's just no way you can massacre an entire civilization even after what they did. The thing is that after they stopped fighting and ceased to be a threat there really isn't any need for further violence. Also, wouldn't 360 trillion be somewhat proportional to a large scale war happening on earth considering that fighting a conflict across an entire galaxy would cause considerably greater amounts of casualties and damage?

That being said, part of me wanted the NJO not to have such a peaceful ending with all the answers to the Yuuzhan Vong's past being unlocked. When I first got into the series, I expected that the war would only end after the New Republic pushed the invaders back into the galactic void, one world at a time, without any peaceful conclusion or harmony-with-the-Force thing. It's a pretty bleak outcome, but I felt that this would really shake the ideals of the Jedi Order to the core and lead to a more uncertain future, which sorta seemed in line with the overall theme of the NJO.

 

That being said, part of me wanted the NJO not to have such a peaceful ending with all the answers to the Yuuzhan Vong's past being unlocked. When I first got into the series, I expected that the war would only end after the New Republic pushed the invaders back into the galactic void, one world at a time, without any peaceful conclusion or harmony-with-the-Force thing. It's a pretty bleak outcome, but I felt that this would really shake the ideals of the Jedi Order to the core and lead to a more uncertain future, which sorta seemed in line with the overall theme of the NJ

I don't think that really works because Luke's ideals were pretty much fine despite the fact that the Empire didn't surrender for 23 years and we had the Dark Empire business.

 

Well a lot of what Luke believes revolves around the idea that people are inherently good at heart and that taking extreme measures to stop them is unnecessary. If the Yuuzhan Vong were to fight to the death even when clearly losing the war, this along with their complete absence in the Force would have been a considerable blow to everything the Jedi stood for.

Also, the Empire mostly fought on out of the personal stubbornness and greed of its remaining leaders, so it really wasn't much of a deal to bring them into line. When overwhelmed, the Imperials would often surrender, and in fact much of the New Republic fleet was comprised of former Imperial ships. The Yuuzhan Vong on the other hand represent true fanaticism and because of this Luke and Jacen ponder at many points in the story whether they have to help in wiping them out to save the galaxy....because this is clearly important to the Jedi. What if the answer was yes?