Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin in the Temple?

He's not saying Dance around and be happy when everyone dies...he's talking about personal attachments. the attachment of not wanting someone to die because you have a personal relationship with them, and you will miss them if they do....you can do anything you want to save someone you think they will die, as long as it is in the realms of the Jedi way.

He clearly says "rejoice for those who become one with the Force" and something along the lines of "only when let go of all you fear of losing you do can...blah blah blah" I agree wholeheartedly with your statement that you can do what you want to save somebody, as long as it is in the realms of the Jedi way. However, that is NOT what Yoda says. Yoda tells Anakin to LET GO of his attachments, to give up his desire to save anybody...because, after all, they're going to a better place!

On the other hand, if Yoda HAD said what you just said, and told Anakin to do what he could to save the person he was attached to, but to always remember to stay true to the Jedi ideals, Anakin probably would have had a slightly better opinoin of his chances of getting the help he needed from the Jedi, not the Sith.

Furthurmore, Yoda would not be happy if the Emporer killed everyone in the galaxy, because they would be unjust deaths...innocent lives. that teaching is one of the best teachings of the Jedi.

But those innocent lives are dying to become one with the Force! As Yoda said, we should rejoice for them! He never asked Anakin if the person he saw dying was innocent, all he said was essentially: "Stand back and watch it happen." Yoda didn't show any concern for anyone's level of innocence of justice, just as long as Anakin let them die. Maybe those were not his exact words, but that is EXACTLY what Anakin heard. This is brought out clearly in the book.

reading all these posts disagrreing with yoda makes me weep for the future, are we so stubborn and attached to physical things? america, america.


Being attached to a person is a bad thing? Wanting to take care of and protect someone you love is being stubborn? Am I really understanding you correctly?

Anakin didn't accept his religon's veiws. he turned his back on the thing he aspired to be. Jedi are like monks. Monks believe EVERY aspect of the religon they practice.....they don't question them, and they don't go against them. If Anakin was to become a true Jedi Master in RotS, he would have to accept the teachings at face value, meaning just go along with what Yoda said and let that be that.

Let's not forget IF HE HAD FOLLOWED YODA'S ADVICE, PADME NEVER WOULD'VE DIED, thus FURTHUR SOLIDIFYING ANAKIN'S FAITH IN THE JEDI. Anakin chose not to, and his wife's demise was the result. PERIOD.

Religeons can be wrong, and the Jedi are wrong. Anakin should NOT have had to accept the Jedi teachings at face value, he should have been allowed to examine them and question them where they did not make sense. If the Jedi were really correct in thier beliefs, they should have been able to prove to him that what they were saying made sense.

Yoda, however, has kept a slew of rules, regulations, and teachings alive that are outdated...wrong. The book says this in black and white. The Jedi teachings inspired by Yoda for 800 years are wrong. That is why his religeon failed. That is why he changed it. That is why his teachings to Luke sound 100% different from anything he said in the entire PT, but sound a whole lot like what Qui-Gon said.

The idea that if Anakin had followed Yoda's counsel, he would have saved Padme' is incorrect. You are assuming that if the outcome is favorible, the method of attaining that outcome MUST have been correct. The concept that I am putting forward, however, is not only correct but it WORKS.

It is the concept Yoda tells Luke...he and Obi-Wan never condemn Luke's love and attachments. They never tell him to rejoice for Han and Leah's death. They tell him his feelings DO HIM CREDIT...while warning him to beware of how they can be used agains

 

ok I'm gonna quote myself here for a second to reiterate my point.............


"I personnaly believe the things the Jedi believe. Does that mean that someone who doesn't have my views is wrong? Absolutly Not. It means you believe in something else. The Jedi were a religous group. Not everyone in the galaxy had the same veiws as they did.If you personally believe what Yoda told Anakin was wrong, then you don't share the same veiws as the Jedi."


IT DOES NOT MAKE THE JEDI WRONG

 

"I personnaly believe the things the Jedi believe. Does that mean that someone who doesn't have my views is wrong? Absolutly Not. It means you believe in something else. The Jedi were a religous group. Not everyone in the galaxy had the same veiws as they did.If you personally believe what Yoda told Anakin was wrong, then you don't share the same veiws as the Jedi."


IT DOES NOT MAKE THE JEDI WRONG

The failure of the Jedi's beliefs result in the rise of the Empire and the death of countless billions of innocent lives. The Jedi fail thier ulitmate goal to safegaurd peace and justice. They are wiped out until only two remain.

You can belive whatever you want when its just you and your beliefs. The Jedi's beliefs, however, dicatate the fate of the galaxy. A somewhat more strict level of measure must be brought into play here.

Lastly, saying that "it is a religeon, therefore it cannot be judged" is incorrect. The Sith are a religeon. How would you say they are different? Why are they wrong? Would you say they are wrong, or that they should just be allowed to do whatever they want? If you think they should be prevented from killing millions of innocents, then why shouldn't the Jedi be held to the same standard? If the Sith are WRONG to kill millions, why aren't the Jedi WRONG to harbor teachings that result in the death of millions?

Violetsaber

 

Again, Yoda gave bad advice because he gave an answer BEFORE he fully understood the problem. The Jedi are similar to Buddist monks and Yoda gave a cookie cutter answer that would have been good for a celebate Jedi but NOT for a husband/father. Having a wife/child is NOT an attachment, it is a completion and extention of one's self. Anakin did not need attachment advice, he needed marital councelling. The last place you want to get marital councelling is from a celebate Jedi.

One of my favorite quotes is "Rules without relationships ALWAYS lead to rebellion". The problem with what Yoda said is that he KNEW Anakin was still guarded and could see that he had his walls up and yet he didn't care enough to find out the whole situation before giving his answer. Yoda gave advice without first RELATING to Anakin. Anakin rebels. Ironically, the only two people that truly related to Anakin were Obiwan and Palpatine. Once Obiwan was out of the picture, Palpatine could tell Anakin all kinds of new laws and rules and he knew Anakin would follow them because Anakin believed he was relating to him. Love first. Rules and laws second.

Why the Jedi Order failed was in Yoda's speech. As Yoda said in TPM, Anakin was "too old" to be trained. "Too old" meaning that he could never be molded into the cookie cutter Jedi Monk traditions that have been the same for thousands of years. Anakin was a different type of Jedi and yet the Jedi Order never adjusted to the situation. If Anakin told Yoda that he was married and had a dream that his wife and child were going to die, there's no way that Yoda would have given the advice he did.

 

Anakin did not need attachment advice, he needed marital councelling.

You get what you get when you lie to your therapist.

 

"Anakin did not need attachment advice, he needed marital councelling."

You get what you get when you lie to your therapist.


Yes, but a good therapist KNOWS when someone's lying. Anakin DIDN'T even answer Yoda's last question and yet Yoda started spouting advice. Yoda should have said "If truthful you are not, then help you, I can not" and waited till Anakin told EVERYTHING. That's the problem with Yoda's advice. He KNEW Anakin's walls were up and yet he didn't care enought to take the time to wait to hear the whole situation.

 

He wasn't waiting for what wouldn't happen. We clearly didn't hear the whole exchange, just that part of the conversation.

There is a difference between loving and protecting our own, and doing so at the cost of everything and everyone we hold dear. Clearly, Yoda felt the pain of the many jedi who died, so he didn't mean don't feel any pain at all, or not observe their passing.

 

Yoda wasn't a therapist though, merely a Jedi master and mentor. Not the same thing. And keep in mind that the dark side clouds everything so Yoda couldn't tell that Anakin was hiding his feelings about Padme's imminent death.

The advice was valid in the context of jedi master to padawan. If Anakin has followed Yoda's advice all along and not gotten involved with Padme to begin with, he wouldn't be in the shape he was in; fearing the death of his pregnant wife.

 

"The failure of the Jedi's beliefs result in the rise of the Empire and the death of countless billions of innocent lives. The Jedi fail thier ulitmate goal to safegaurd peace and justice. They are wiped out until only two remain."



No no no...the failure of Anakin to accept those beliefs caused that to happen...not the beliefs themselves....you are totally missing my point...it's all about point of view...Anakin's point of view was "The Jedi are wrong. I'm right. I won't let go of Padme!" and THIS causes the rise of the Empire and countless killings of innocents.... are you so blind as to not accept that If Anakin had chose to follow Yoda's advice, Padme wouldntve died and the Empire wouldn't exist? It's right there on screen. Since Anakin doesn't accept that his wife will die eventually (that means to say, HE MUST ACCEPT SHE AND HE AND EVERYONE WILL DIE PERIOD..he wants her and himself to be immortal), he turns his back on the teachings that he so desperatly clung to before, thus leaving the Jedi faith behind...and there are only two religons in the SW universe that deal with the force, Jedi and Sith. Anakin, already accepting the existance of the force and holding that core belief, had one of two choices...stay with the religon I've been faithful to (to an extent)up to this point, or reject it and go to the other one...he chose the other one and as we all can see IT WAS THE WRONG CHOICE. The Jedi's beliefs have nothing to do with Anakin's free will.

 

Well the Jedi philosophy was wrong. The novel explains it better but that's what Qui Gon was trying to say. The Jedi lack of emotion and attachments is what led Anakin to the Dark Side. Luke and his love for his father and sister brought that back into the Jedi philosophy. So Yoda was wrong and in the novel he expressed that. It wasn't as clearly portrayed in the film though.

 

Yoda's advise was dead on for a couple of reasons.

First off, he tells Anakin that he must let go, in the novel the saying is that "All Things Die, even Stars burn out" Death was something that completley terrified Anakin, not death of himself, but the death of Obi Wan or Padme terrified him. Fear is the path to the darkside, if Anakin were to let go of his fear of losing them, he would have been fine.

Also, Yoda tells him to be careful of predicting the future, Anakin became attached to this dream, obsessed with stopping it, and as a result his actions were responsible for the dream coming true, if he hadn't become attached to the dream itself, then Padme wouldn't have died.

 

yoda is not to blame, anakin had no right to play god

 

Well the Jedi philosophy was wrong. The novel explains it better but that's what Qui Gon was trying to say. The Jedi lack of emotion and attachments is what led Anakin to the Dark Side.


it's not about being emotionless "We are actually, encouraged to love"


it's about not letting go of attachment...when we cling to something because it is , in our own eyes, in our own perspective, ours. no matter what it is...power, loved ones, material things, money, anything. it's not about not having those attachments at all, it's about learning to let go of them when you have to. it non materialistic, it's selfless.

EDIT: and let's not bring the novels into this...they are interpretations of GL's vision...The films are GLs vision itself. this goes for both sides of the argument.

 

If Yoda did everything right why would he have proclaimed that he failed in the end? Because he did fail, He was part of the whole thing. The Jedi council treated Anakin like a stepchild from day one. Constantly doubting him rather than supporting him. Always cutting him short of his aspirations. Then in the end they rely on him to do there spying of the Palpitine? Yod a couldn't even see that Anikin was in love, I don't think he could "see" much of anything.

Yoda may have given advice that was ok for a Dr. Phil show but it seems clear that niether Yoda nor the Jedi ever gave Anakin the attention to detail that he deserved. They ignored al the signs that he was the chosen one and they paid for it. But maybe the prophecy stated that all the jedi would be crushed and it would take 25 years of dark side rule to eventually bring balance to the force. If you believe in prophecies in the first place you have to believe in unchanging destiny so it doesn't matter what advice Yoda gave this was all going to happen no matter what.

 

If Yoda did everything right why would he have proclaimed that he failed in the end? Because he did fail, He was part of the whole thing. The Jedi council treated Anakin like a stepchild from day one. Constantly doubting him rather than supporting him. Always cutting him short of his aspirations. Then in the end they rely on him to do there spying of the Palpitine? Yod a couldn't even see that Anikin was in love, I don't think he could "see" much of anything.

His failure was that he didn't let the Jedi adapt. He kept them on the same track that they were on when he was a wee Youngling. The lack of adaptation is why he feels that he failed. Had things been done differently, the Jedi would've been a match for the Sith.

It is the concept Yoda tells Luke...he and Obi-Wan never condemn Luke's love and attachments. They never tell him to rejoice for Han and Leah's death. They tell him his feelings DO HIM CREDIT...while warning him to beware of how they can be used against him. Therefore, when Luke begins to make the same mistake Vader made, he STOPS...and realizes that protecting Leah is not worth paying the price his Father did. He turns from the Dark Side because he had been warned, NOT to disregard his feelings, but to GAURD how they can be USED AGAINST HIM.

No, they don't tell him to rejoice. They tell him that if he honors them for everything that they've done for the Rebellion, for the greater good, then he must be willing to let them go. Even if it means their deaths. They have no trouble accepting death. Luke had to as well.

 

Consider this line which is suddenly an eerie parallel when dropped into this context:

Leia, to Vader: "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

Humans have but a finite amount of control over their lives and the lives around them. When they try to overstep those bounds, they usually make things worse by sticking their nose in.

You all say Yoda gave bad advice, but Anakin, in trying SO HARD to save Padme, destroyed the Old Republic AND managed to lose her anyway. His OWN EFFORTS are what brought his visions to become reality.

Anakin wanted everything to go his way, and with the immense power he had, he tried to FORCE (no pun intended) things to his will. But things don't work that way. People choose their own path, and sometimes things happen... just because they happen. The Jedi may have been short-sighted to forbid attachments, but Anakin is a perfect example of what happens when you get the wrong blend of power and attachment.

There has to be a balance somewhere. Qui-Gonn found this balance, which led him to discover how to become a blue glowy guy. Luke had this balance, as he eventually marries Mara Jade and opens up his own Jedi Academy (EU), not with the old tenets of the Jedi, but with Yoda's teachings coupled with his own experience.

Balance.

 

Luke had this balance, as he eventually marries Mara Jade and opens up his own Jedi Academy (EU), not with the old tenets of the Jedi, but with Yoda's teachings coupled with his own experience.

Hmmm, disagree with this. Actually, the whole Jedi getting married and falling in love stuff in the books post OT really irritates me. I can imagine Yoda and Obi Wan etc popping up from the netherworld shouting "for the love of god, what the hell are you doing?! If your dad hadn't got himself stuck in this situation in the first place, you wouldn't need a NEW Jedi Order."

Qui-Gon probably has it right. Yes, Jedi should love. But not in a passionate way, in terms of romantic love. That's what has the potential to develop destructive emotions and creates the kind of situation where one can fall to the dark side.

Frankly, in the books, and with things like Mara Jade, I think the love story is there because, well, you put love stories in books. And for no other reason.

 

His failure was that he didn't let the Jedi adapt. He kept them on the same track that they were on when he was a wee Youngling. The lack of adaptation is why he feels that he failed. Had things been done differently, the Jedi would've been a match for the Sith.



Couldn'tve put it better myself.



No, they don't tell him to rejoice. They tell him that if he honors them for everything that they've done for the Rebellion, for the greater good, then he must be willing to let them go. Even if it means their deaths. They have no trouble accepting death. Luke had to as well.



That is what I'm trying to say!!!! thank god you people are here to support my point of view or Id be going insane right now.

 

**If you cant find the dialogue here it is**

Yoda: Premonitions, premonitions, hmmm these visions you have?

Anakin: There of pain, suffering, death.

Yoda: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?

Anakin: Someone.

Yoda: Close to you?

Anakin: Yes.

Yoda: Careful you must be when sensing the future Anakin, the fear of lose is the path to the darkside.

Anakin: I wont let these visions come true Master Yoda.

Yoda: Death is a natural part of life, rejoice for those around you who transform into the force, mourn them do not, miss them do not, attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is.

Anakin: What must I do Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.


**Discuss**

 

It just seems that YOda could have been more personal . . . . I am not siding with Anakin or his emotions, but saying that Yoda failed to understand Anakin on a personal level.

Baldness and aesthetics aside, Yoda is not Dr. Phil.

Yoda was instructing a Jedi on their approach to emotional attachment, whether flawed in a universal sense or not.

Its Anakin's fault he turned. He was written as an emotional, immature and probably not particularly bright character. One that also received unconventional training. That, mixed with the charismatic schemings of a badass Sith Lord is a bad combination.

 

Yoda: Death is a natural part of life, rejoice for those around you who transform into the force, mourn them do not, miss them do not, attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is.

Anakin: What must I do Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.


You see, Yoda WAS talking about personal attachments.

"Attatchment leads to jealousy"

he uses the word jealousy...jealousy is an emotion we associate with romantic attachment. I believe Yoda knew about Padme.

"Rejoice those around you who return to the force"

Those AROUND you. he's talking specificly about friends, family, and (since i think Yoda knew who Anakin was talking about in this conversation ) loved ones.


"Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose"

Again, Yoda is being personal...everything YOU fear to lose....another thing that makes me think he knew about Padme.


For a Jedi Master, these are ALL the right thing to do and the correct teachings. Anakin was denied his mastership because of his inability to do these things.
to let go of self attachments, a selfish and un-Jedi like thing. he is redeemed in RotJ because he realizes he must sacrifice himself to save his son, a selfless act. Because he was trying to save people he loved is not the reason for his undoing and redemption, it is the REASONS BEHIND him wanting to save those people...One was selfish, because he wanted something out of it; to live with padme, because "I (repeat I underlined) can't go on if she dies" (not exact quote, but you get the point), and one was selfless, because he knew it was the right thing to do; to sacrifice himsellf for the greater good and his son...

 

He [anakin] was written as an emotional, immature and probably not particularly bright character. One that also received unconventional training. That, mixed with the charismatic schemings of a badass Sith Lord is a bad combination.
CHUCK


ahh but Luke was written the same way, and Luke recieved training even more unconventional than his father, and he turned out fine...not really arguing your core point, just bringing something to light.

 

Luke was certainly reckless at times, but I don't think he ever had Anakin's anger or prideful ambition. He seemed to have a more stable personality overall.

 

Luke was certainly reckless at times, but I don't think he ever had Anakin's anger or prideful ambition. He seemed to have a more stable personality overall.

I think, for 1976-80 movies, Luke was written as very moody, prideful (especially about his piloting skills) and with a penchant to fly off the handle at a moment's notice (like every 2 seconds on Dagobah).

However, that performance doesn't seem so viewed through today's lens of mainstream (obviously, some great smaller stuff) 2005 cinema and TV.

Now, every reaction is so over-emoted in TV dramas (e.g., 24, Alias, etc.) and movies (e.g., Matrix, LOTR, etc.) that its almost professional wrestling like. Lots of yelling, scowls, needless conversational confrontation and conversational oneupsmanship.

As an illustration, there were honestly people on a thread last week claiming that Vader's outburst breaking glasses and force crushing droids, a ridiculously over the top reaction in real life even were the Galaxy destroyed, was "not enough" when learning about the death of his wife. People are told about the death of their wife every day in his country without so much a lot of crying, and sometimes not even that for the unemotional.

In summary, when viewed relative to today's characters, Luke seems far calmer now relative to the world of 2005 cinema.

 

The Jedi are similar to Buddist monks and Yoda gave a cookie cutter answer that would have been good for a celebate Jedi but NOT for a husband/father.

Actually, Zen priests are allowed to marry and have children. Luke's new Jedi are probably more like modern Zen Buddhists.