Yoda's place in the Jedi order's history

Yoda is definitely flawed. But that's the beauty of Star Wars, especially the PT... its heroes are all flawed, which probably explains why people can latch onto the story so strongly.

Yep. The PT and especially ROTS shows that quite well.

 

Yoda should've got fired a long time ago

 

So true...

 

forever jedi, Heres my idea:

1. Hard for jedi to sense darkside... so does emperor in ROTJ sensing luke when vader told him he's on the Endor.

2. I think Anakin can bury the feeling deep down js like Luke kept Leia's identity from vader

3. No comment...

4. No comment... hehe

5. maybe we blame qui gon for keeping secret of the Whillis stuff, not yoda, hep rpobably dunno as well...

6. If not there won't be Star Wars

 

Yoda should've got fired a long time ago




Fired is such a harsh term. You mean forcibly (forcibly get it ) retired.

 

This may be somewhat blasphemous in certain circles, but is Obi-wan the greatest Jedi? Anakin did manage to save him numerous times and during certain fights (namely with Count Dooku) he looked overmatched. His fingerprints were all over the fall and rise of the Jedi order. One might argue that his actions at the end of Episode 3 and throughout 4,5 and 6 basically laid the foundation for the ultimate salvation of the galaxy. His wit, heroism, empathy, conviction and will (going on a mission to kill your best friend who is also coincidentally a Force prodigy) set him apart I think. I know this isn't the forum for it but he's just a damn fine Jedi.

 

Yoda is and always will be the best. Of course he's flawed, but he learns from it. Learns from his mistakes and changes his ways. That is what makes one great. Being able to learn from your experiences and change yourself for the better.

 

Obi-Wan is flawed, same as Yoda. I wonder if Obi-Wan ever let go of his guilt. But they'd both tell you that they are far from perfect. They are instruments of the Force, and it's not until the OT that they realize what that truly means.

 

That's right. And I think their ability to see their flaws and change for the better is what makes them so great.

 

yoda is probably the reason the jedi order flourished after the sith were crushed 1000 years earlier.

yoda and his rigid thinking failed the jedi order.

i agree with the arrogant argument too.

i originally thought yoda decided to attack sidious solo because sidious would be without the protection of anakin, so this would be easier than if master and apprentice were together, but this doesn't really make sense.

since neither obi or yoda is a lock for victory against anakin or sidious, it seems to make more sense to have them attack either anakin or sidious together so they know they killed at least one head on the serpent's body.

to me, it would make sense for yoda and obi to attack sidious together and then go after the inexperienced anakin who would suddenly have millions of clones to control and not know where to begin with this responsibility. but what do i know?

i feel like i sound like comic book guy from the simpsons, but this really didn't make any sense to me.

 

It's because Yoda believed he could defeat Sidious on his own. He was wrong.

 

weakmindedfool has a very good point...

IMHO, Yoda IS too arrogant and blind in his own abilities. He BELIEVES he's on the right track no MATTER what the rest of the council believes. His communicating with Qui-Gon taught him a LOT which is why is IS so wise in the OT.
If you've read the novelization of 'Sith' you'll see that Qui-Gon tells him that this isn't his FAULT, but that CHANGE is necessary.

 

what's even stranger is you think with 3 years of communicating with qui gon...either 1) yoda would have known that anakin had very much on his path to the dark side (tuskan slaughter) 2) sidious = palpatine

not sure what they were talking about during that all those years, haha...

yoda didn't seem to have much of a sex life, even if you count yada.

 

forever_jedi forgot one thing. If Yoda seems to state (in AotC) that the dark side clouds everything. Then how come when Yoda was meditating did he know that Anakin was using the Dark side (pain, suffering, death) ?

I thought that the Dark side clouds everything? Maybe Lucas has all these great ideas but he couldn?t coherently blend it all to make logical sense.

 

Maybe Jedi_Nexus? I think it's DEFINITE!

 

1. As many others have said, the Dark Side was clouding everything. Furthermore, I think of this as a show of Palpatine's strength rather than Yoda's weakness. You say that Yoda is weak for not being able to sense that Palpatine is Sidious, while I say that Palpatine is strong for being able to mask his true nature even from Yoda himself. But that's just me.

2. Personally I think at its core, the advice was very good. Change is a part of life, nothing is permant. Sooner or later we will all lose everything that we are attached to, whether they are objects, family, or friends. We must learn to accept such lost when the time comes and let go or else we will hurt ourselves or others. That is the essence of Yoda's advice and even in the real world it is both good and important advice. The only problem I see with Yoda's advice is the "mourn them do not, miss them do not" part. Again, at its core, this is good advice. Missing and mourning can often be taken too far, and essentially turn into a refusal to let go of that which was lost, and the result is usually self destructive behavior. The problem with what Yoda said was that he worded it in an extreme way, saying that all missing and mourning are bad. I think a certain degree of missing and mourning is healthy, and can help one let go. So to sum up my thoughts on this, Yoda's advice was in general really good, though he did get a little extreme with it(which of course was a general problem with the Jedi order). The fact is that though it was good advice, it wasn't the advice Anakin wanted, because he didn't want to let go.

3. I know that a lot of people on this board have problems with people citing EU, but the ROTS book does address this issue. As I recall, the council decided to bate Sidious into revealing himself by having either Yoda or Mace Windu leave Coruscant. They figured that with only one of them on Coruscant rather than both the Jedi would appear weaker and Sidious would make his attack on the Temple, Council or both. I believe the decision to send Yoda rather than Windu was in fact because of Yoda's good relations with the Wookies.

4. No offense to Obi-Wan, especially since he is my second favorite Jedi, but if he had went with Yoda he would've just been killed without making any contribution to the fight. Look at how easily Dooku dispensed with Obi-Wan at the beginning. Given that Palpatine is much more powerful and more well-trained than Dooku, I think that Obi-Wan wouldn't have stood a chance and would have been dispensed with almost immediately. Thus if he took Obi-Wan with him, Yoda would have doomed Obi-Wan to a pointless death.

5. Why is everyone assuming that he's been communicating with Qui-Gon for 3 years? In AOTC Yoda hears Qui-Gon's voice while he's meditating and is surprised by this, but he never shows any sign of communicating with him. As I recall from the book, Yoda was very confused by the whole incident and didn't know what to think because he believed such things were impossible. We know that at the end of ROTS Yoda does in fact communicate with Qui-Gon, as he tells Obi-Wan. Just because these two incidents that we know for sure happened are seperated by 3 years does not mean Yoda was communicating with Qui-Gon for three years. In fact, maybe it took those three years for Qui-Gon to regain enough of his identity to actually communicate with Yoda. In AOTC it was just an emotional outburst and concern for Anakin that Yoda sensed. Maybe the process of returning from the Force takes time and in the early stages he's only regained these basic, simpler aspects of himself. Thus it wasn't until ROTS that Qui-Gon actually had regained his more complex thought processes and was able to actually communicate to Yoda and explain everything to him. Under this theory Yoda didn't tell anyone about Qui-Gon because there was nothing to tell. The one incident from AOTC was not enough to start a big fuss over since Yoda didn't know what happened. For all he knew it was just a vision from the past ("old friends long gone"). Obviously this is just spe

 

5. Why is everyone assuming that he's been communicating with Qui-Gon for 3 years?

Basically, because of what the ROTS script says, which some lines were deleted in the editing. At the end of ROTS he implies that he has been in communication with Qui-Gon when he talks to Obi-Wan.

 

But does the implication in the script give any indication of how long he's been in communication with Qui-Gon? If all it does is imply that Yoda has been in communication with Qui-Gon that could mean just for the duration of ROTS, and does not have to imply that its been for 3 years.

 

Yoda is definitely flawed. But that's the beauty of Star Wars, especially the PT... its heroes are all flawed, which probably explains why people can latch onto the story so strongly.

Yep. The PT and especially ROTS shows that quite well.

If Yoda in the PT was some sort of superhero, then obviously the OT would never come into being (because he could easily sense the Sith, then kill them before the story even got off the ground). Also what is said above - all the heroes are flawed, which allows people to latch onto the story much more.

In addition, I think that if all the characters were perfect no-one could relate to them. I find that I can relate well enough to Yoda with the faults he had in the PT, but not if he was perfect.

 

"Basically, because of what the ROTS script says, which some lines were deleted in the editing. At the end of ROTS he implies that he has been in communication with Qui-Gon when he talks to Obi-Wan."

the implication is that only NOW, meaning recently, has yoda actually communicated with qui gon. and by recently, i mean, poliss massa.

 

Yoda is the wisest of the Jedi.


Just because you are wise, doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. Yes, Yoda made many mistakes in the PT, but then, didn't Obi-Wan make some as well? or what about Anakin, didn't he make the worst mistakes of all? Yoda will still be remembered as one of the greatest Jedi, because , while the Jedi fell under his watch, he trains the one who will help the chosen one fulfill the prophecy.


He is also the best saber wielder.

 

the implication is that only NOW, meaning recently, has yoda actually communicated with qui gon. and by recently, i mean, poliss massa.


Could be, its hard to tell. But if it was on Poliss Massa, I would think Yoda would have been a bit more surprised. Since hes calm and says it matter-of-factly, leads me to believe that the conversation with Qui-Gon is nothing new to him.

 

has yoda ever been one to act surprised?

the way he says it, and the way he can only hear qui gon in AOTC, im pretty sure only now, can he actually speak to qui gon.

 

Just my random thoughts:

-If Obi-wan had escaped from the Death Star with Luke and co., he definitely would have taken Luke to be trained by Yoda anyway. Why? He tells Luke in ROTJ that he thought he could train Anakin as well Yoda, but he was wrong.

-Yoda is forced to leave the fight with Sidious. He fails to kill him but holds his on. It was a stalemate to say the least. None of them could get the upper hand or really hurt each other physically, Sidious did "have the high ground" though. Bail asks Yoda in the novel "Are you hurt?" Yoda answers, "Only my pride."

-Although for three years, The Force has been speaking to Yoda in the form of Qui-Gon Jinn, it is only on Polis Massa that Qui-Gon reveals to Yoda the secret to spirtual immortality. Only then does Yoda understand why it was Qui-Gon's voice he was hearing. And so he offers Qui-Gon to be his apprentice.

-Yoda's place in the Jedi Order's history? Besides the great Obi-wan Kenobi, Yoda is the other person solely responsible for the downfall of the Sith and the Return of the Jedi. Yoda saves Obi-wan and Anakin from Dooku so that they can beat up each other in ROTS, keeps Sidious busy long enough for Obi-wan to take down Anakin, is the first living Jedi to learn the path to spirtual immortality, teaches this to Obi-wan so that they both keep busy for twenty years and not be couch potato beer-belly losers, trains a stubborn 20-something named Luke and allows him to make his own mistakes so that he eventually defeats the Chosen One who in turn gives us the cheesiest death in all of the Star Wars saga by throwing down the all-mighty Emperor down a shaft that the Emperor can't get himself out of. So, Yoda does defeat the Darth Sidious, if not directly. The battle never truly ended in ROTS, it continued through ROTJ and Yoda emerges the victor. The Jedi Order lives on... 'Nuff said.