"You must join me Obi Wan, & together we will destroy the Sith!"

To this day, I still do not know why Count Dooku said this. Can anyone clarify what he was talking about or trying to accomplish with Obi Wan? Was he serious?

 

He was trying to lure him.

 

Remember how Vader tried to get Luke to join him in ESB?

Well, Dooku's not above trying to bump off his 'superior' either. By letting Obi-Wan know just how bad things are, it's Dooku's best chance for getting a powerful apprentice of his own.

If Obi-Wan refuses, then he's unlikely to belief anything Dooku said anyway.

 

He was very serious. Dooku joined forces with Sidious so that he could stab him in the back and destroy the Sith from within.
He was trying to convince Obi-Wan to join in his fight, without giving away too much information, in case he would refuse and somehow escape the execution in the arena.
The reason Dooku wants Sidious dead is the same as the reason he left the Jedi order: Qui-Gon´s death!

 

If that were the case, why didn't Dooku simply activate his lightsaber and kill him when they met at the end?

 

I agree, absolutely, ST-TPM-ASF-TNE. While not with the specific reasoning, I think that the "trying to seduce Kenobi" argument doesn't make much sense.

We must first off remember that Dooku released no particularly useful information. The nature of the Dark Side "fog" as described by Lucas, is that it is not blinding the Jedi, nor is it a result of a specific power being exercised by Palpatine. Further, the Jedi, concentrating or not, have as of yet been unable to penetrate it. So even if they know someone is influencing the Senate, they won't be able to use their powers to sense that its Sidious, since they hanve't already, and nothing else is available to them. So what did they really gain? They only know that they have enemies working through the Senate, and that there is a Sith lord on the loose. But remember, Yoda says that they know as much after finding out about the creation of the Clone Army (just before Kenobi's capture). Recall the lines, "If informed the Senate is, multiply, our enemies will." So the only conceivable bit of knowledge they gained is that their enemies working in/through the Senate are collaborating with the Sith lord. What does this set them up to do? They might, be on the one hand, being set-up to distrust the Senate, leading to tension that will make it easier to discredit and Purge them later. Or alternatively, if they dismiss Dooku's talk as lies, then they blind themselves to the truth, and thus allow their weaknesses to be further exploited. Thus, either of the two conceivalbe ways they might act on this information would be advantageous for Sidious.

Second, we must also consider the possibility that Dooku thought the Jedi would never risk aggravating such a delicate political situation to rescue Kenobi. In this case, it could merely be seen as talk to break him down. In subsequent vists, Dooku might've talked about how blue milk is the key to immortality, lightsabers really came from defective flashlights, and how Hutts are skinny and athletic. Combined with torture and sleep-deprivation, one could quickly see how such visits might make Kenobi break, given enough time.

You might propose, though, that Dooku not knowing the Jedi Order would save Kenobi is ridiculous. However, I would point out that this is the assumption that must be made if you assert Dooku is trying to convert Kenobi. After all, wouldn't the Order notice if Kenobi suddenly began sympathizing strongly with the leader of the Separatists, or became a Sith outright? There's no way he could do either and expect to go back to the Jedi Temple. So the only possibility, if we say Dooku intended this, is that Dooku did not believe anyone would come for Kenobi. But if this is the case, then the other explanation serves just as well.

Finally, why would Dooku have so made his conversion attempt so sloppily. There are several Geonsian witnesses to the fact that he went in to interrogate Kenobi, and the he was friendly to him. Even worse, if we assume that Dooku knew the Jedi would come for him, then we have the entire Jedi Order (10,000 people) that know Dooku tried to "convert Kenobi". Are we to assume that with all these peopel knowing, Palpatine wouldn't find out? And that if Palpatine did find out, he couldn't, for all his political savy, figure out what Dooku was up to?

The "convert Obi-wan" or "destroy/take over the Sith" theories just don't add up in light of all this. Unless there's some more evidence, or takes on things.

 

But Darth Vader said to Luke that if he joined him that they could take out the emperor together, and rule the galaxy as father and son. Yes, I know that it is a bunch of retoric b.s., but he still said it. With the Jedi, you become a Jedi Master by passing the trials, but with the Sith you become a "Sith Master" by striking down your master and rising above him. In order be actually be a Sith I think that you must first accept the fact that one day you will die by your learner's hand. That in itself is what makes the Sith devotion so stupid. Sometimes the best way to decieve someone is to tell them the truth.

 

Wow, I think that you might be onto something with this. Maybe Dooku is playing both sides, but he still is more evil than good.

 

Who said that Vader lied to Luke? He was sincere when he told him he wished to destroy Palpatine and rule the galaxy with him at his side. Nothing implies otherwise.
As was Dooku about destroying the Sith. The reason he doesn´t try just killing him is that Sidious would know and kill him instead. Sidious probably knows already that in time, Dooku will betray him, but he keeps using him until he has no further need for his resources. That will be when Dooku reveals himself as a traitor.

 

A few arguments.

1. "Sith kill Jedi"- true only when the time is right. Sidious sees Jedi every day, as part of his job, and never even irritates them. And yet Dooku fights them and you claim he's not a Sith because of it. There's such a thing as timing. Further, I would point out that at each point, Dooku had no chance to finish anyone off, because he was always facing a new opponent (Kenobi, then Anakin, then Yoda, then horde of clone troopers). And if you remember, he was going to finish off Kenobi before Anakin charged in again and go his arm cut off. So much for that.

2. "if Dooku had joined the Dark Side lies and deceit would be his ways. . .but he tells Obi-wan nothing but the truth" Need we point out how elaborate Dooku's deception of all the major commerce guilds is in getting them to join the Separatist movement? His continuing deception of the Republic and the Jedi to make them think he wasn't involved with the Amidala assassination attempts? His deception in that he knows Sidious is playing both sides, and doesn't reveal it to anyone (its can't even be inferred from his revelatory speech to Kenobi)? It looks like lies and deceit, are his ways, if you ask me. Also, are you suggesting that Yoda was wrong when he said: "the Dark Side I sense in you"? Because as far as we know from the movies, there are no Dark Side practicioners outside of the Sith. So to suggest Yoda is wrong about something so simple at the prime of his career would suggest the guy's an idiot. So that's that.

3. "Why didn't Dooku present Kenobi to Sidious. . ."- Why? First off, capturing Kenobi was unexpected, so it would have caused tremendous logistical problems for both Dooku and Palpatine as they rescheduled things. Also, what would be the point in that? If they were just going to reveal the secret then kill him, they may as well not reveal anything at all. And if he escaped that would run a huge risk. Unlike the actually enacted plan of Dooku's revelation, providing information that solid would actually work against them, since then the Jedi could work directly against Sidious in the open. So under what circumstance would it make sense to do this? Not under any of the one's I suggested.

4. "If he tried to kill Palpatine directly, he would loose." Fine. But how does having Kenobi on his side solve this? What exactly does a run-of-the-mill Jedi do to turn the tables? Further, why does it hve to be a duel? It could be done just as easily by firing a missile into the Chancellor's office, poisoning his food, overwhelming him with a bunch of Separatist robots, sabotaging his spacecraft, etc, etc. Or failing all else, just hurl him into a power generator. Worked in ROTJ. There's really no reason to wait, and I can't see any real adavantage in having Obi-wan. Someone care to explain.

5. "Sith have to kill their masters as a right of succession." Yeah, but nothing suggests this is what that was. Really, wouldn't he have put more planning into trying to seduce Obi-wan. Basically, Kenobi just happened to show up at Dooku's doorstep, so Dooku had to deal with him some how. I don't think you can honestly say Sith pick their apprentices by grabbing the first random person with Force powers they run into and trying to convert them. Especailly considering the great amount of planning evident in the attempts to turn first Vader, and then Luke. Its not consistent with the pattern.

My conclusion? Dooku's not trying to destroy the Sith, undermine Palpatine, help the Republic, or seduce Kenobi. He's just following orders.

 

4. "If he tried to kill Palpatine directly, he would loose." Fine. But how does having Kenobi on his side solve this? What exactly does a run-of-the-mill Jedi do to turn the tables? Further, why does it hve to be a duel? It could be done just as easily by firing a missile into the Chancellor's office, poisoning his food, overwhelming him with a bunch of Separatist robots, sabotaging his spacecraft, etc, etc. Or failing all else, just hurl him into a power generator. Worked in ROTJ. There's really no reason to wait, and I can't see any real adavantage in having Obi-wan. Someone care to explain.

I will explain: Destroying the Sith isn´t what drives Dooku. He wants to change the galaxy, because it has become corrupt. He wants to rule the Republic. He wants power.
He would never gain that by simply killing Sidious, so he uses Sidious until he has no further need for him. Just like Sidious is doing with him.
The dark side is clouding the vision for the Sith as well as the Jedi.
Oh, and about having Obi-Wan join: Dooku probably just wants as many Jedi allies as possible. Wouldn´t surprise me if he already has a few in the temple....

 

If Dooku had designs on destroying the sith from the inside, then he'd really be nothing than an undercover jedi. Also, it would NOT make Anakin the chosen one, or the one who will bring balance to the universe. The reason Anakin's turn to the darkside is somewhat hopeful is because he's going to destroy the sith in the very very end. If Dooku would have done it anyways, some thirty years before, then there's no need for Anakin.

On another note, I remember that George said that he really liked the way Lee delivered his lines in the interrogation scene because there was an ambiguity to the way he was speaking. You're not sure if he's lying or not, and GL went on to say that he IS being geniune but he liked how his delivery casted doubts. But then again, not everyone accepts what George says to be canon because his ideas change on an hourly basis.

 

Huh? Who said Dooku would ever be able to pull the thing off? The point is that his big plan was doomed to fail from start. He could never defeat the Sith from the inside, because he wouldn´t be strong enough to break free of the dark side. By the time he had killed Sidious, he would be too messed up. HE would be the one to start an evil Empire and rule the galaxy by fear, however noble his original intentions were.
Anakin is the only one strong enough to destroy the Sith. He has a will power noone else has, because he is the Chosen one.

BTW: GL wouldn´t change his mind about this plot point, now that he´s started it.
The fact that powerful Dooku fails will make Vader´s case more hopeless for the audience. They will think that he can never turn back.

 

I don't think that Dooku is evil, maybe misguided, but not evil. I think that he is trying to take down the sith from the inside.
The real traitor is not known yet but I would think that it will be a surprise like Mace.

 

I think the real traitor will be;


***spoiler warning***




















Anakin.

 

Jabba-wocky, I agree with almost everything you said.
Almost.

Recall the lines, "If informed the Senate is, multiply, our enemies will." So the only conceivable bit of knowledge they gained is that their enemies working in/through the Senate are collaborating with the Sith lord.

That doesnt necessarily mean that they already know a sith lord is working with members of the senate. I think the point to those statements are simply that they have enemies in the senate. They probably always have. Yoda just doesnt want anyone to know that anything is wrong. Too much information makes you vulnerable.
I dont think he knew about the Sith connection to the senate 'till Obi-Wan told him. Mace now wants to keep a closer eye on the senate, to which Yoda nods, and that tells me - He just found out.


Other than that, I agree with your logic.
I remember a thread somewhere about 'What does Dooku expect', or something like that. Good stuff.
I cant figure out what the guy is doing, so in answer to the original question at the top of the page;

I have NO idea.

 

"Jabba-wocky, I agree with almost everything you said.
Almost.

Recall the lines, "If informed the Senate is, multiply, our enemies will." So the only conceivable bit of knowledge they gained is that their enemies working in/through the Senate are collaborating with the Sith lord.

That doesnt necessarily mean that they already know a sith lord is working with members of the senate. I think the point to those statements are simply that they have enemies in the senate. They probably always have. Yoda just doesnt want anyone to know that anything is wrong. Too much information makes you vulnerable.
I dont think he knew about the Sith connection to the senate 'till Obi-Wan told him. Mace now wants to keep a closer eye on the senate, to which Yoda nods, and that tells me - He just found out.


Other than that, I agree with your logic.
I remember a thread somewhere about 'What does Dooku expect', or something like that. Good stuff.
I cant figure out what the guy is doing, so in answer to the original question at the top of the page;

I have NO idea."

Yes that is what he meant. The Jedi are not the most popular group when it comes to politcians and the Republic.

 

Lars Muul, huh? If it's Dooku's designs to take over the Galaxy, how would joining with Palpatine help? In fact, why would leaving the Jedi help? Might it not have been more efficient to work his way ot head of the Council, then dominate the Chancellor's policy as a "power behind the throne." For that matter, being the decorated Jedi that he is, wouldn't beginning a real political campaign and working his way to the top be just as easy? Or even, if he ran the Separatists as an actual[/]i Separatist faction and tried to have it take over the Galaxy? If he stays under Palpatine, he doesn't rule the Galaxy. At the same time, if he kills him he certainly doesn't get to rule the Galaxy. How much sense does that make? "Now that the Chancellor is dead, we should appoint his arch-rival and the enemy commander, the most infamous person in modern history (for breaking up the Republic) as his natural replacement because of his secret involvement with an evil cult that threatened the Republic a millenium ago and who the Jedi have always fought to eliminate"? I don't think so.

As for "taking down the Sith from the inside" why? There are a lot simpler ways of doing it from the outside. Several of which I mentioned in the earlier posts.

Arrowheadpodracer, that's what I was trying to say. My point being that since that new info didn't lead them to any courses of action that would threaten Palpatine (and, I would contend, couldn't) that you can't say Dooku really messed anything up by making the revelation.

 

Jabba-Wocky: I can already sense that this discussion won´t lead us anywhere, but I´ll give it a shot:
Would it be easy to destroy the Sith from without? I think not. Don´t you think they have tried that before?
Dooku doesn´t want to be a Jedi anymore, because their beliefs don´t fit with his. He can´t serve a corrupt Republic that has Sith Lords running around and killing his friends. He wants to change the galaxy, to start it over. He doesn´t want to replace the Supreme Chancellor, he wants to throw the Republic in the trash can and start from page one.
But he can only do so by helping the Sith to destroy the Republic from within and then destroy the Sith. The only problem is that by the time he betrays Sidious, he will either get killed himself or, when he has killed Sidious, take his place as the Sith Master. He won´t be able to resist the dark side, cuz he´s been in it for too long.
Dooku himself doesn´t see this, though. He sees himself as the good man who wants to make everything better. He can make massive sacrifices(which he does in AOTC with the Jedi) to achieve his goal, because it´s for a good cause.

 

Lars_Muul, sorry about the kind of sardonic tone to the post. I didn't actually think you'd reply, because I pretty much figured the thread had died. But I do take you're arugments seriously and by all means am happy to debate them. In a reasonable tone, this time.

While I agree Dooku is disillusioned with the Jedi and the Republic, I still think it would be difficult to try and takeover the Galaxy in the manner you suggest. If his goal is to collapse the government entirely, the systems would fall into anarchy, and probably loose contact with one another as they becoem more like fiefdoms. The chances of reuniting such a Galaxy without an incredibly strong military force (which requires an even stronger economy to back it), are small to the point of being negligible.

So then, we know that he has to have a whole nation-state style support system of a government, and economy, and willing resources and citizens to take over. If he tries to get this outside of the Republic, then the vehicle we're talking about is something like the Separatist movement of AOTC. And as with happened with AOTC, the corrupt Republic would recognize it as a rising threat, and try to crush it while it was gone. Given the pure ability of attrition, its likely the Republic would win such a battle.

His alternative is to transform the Republic into that very vehicle, meaning that he cannot destroy it completely. Besides leaving trace elements of that corrupt system behind, it would also fail to provide a reason for him to become a leader. The only way this could conceivably be done is by Palpatine, who would have to hand-pick Dooku to succeed him. This, though, is a dangerous strategy as well, as it requires Dooku outlive Palpatine (despite the fact the fact that he is already much older). Moreover, if this were indeed the case, then it wouldn't make sense for him to do something in such open rebellion (as trying to convert Obi-wan) so early in the game.

Finally, I agree that extermination of the Sith from the outside is extremely difficult. However, the primary problem of the Jedi has always been tracking down members, not actually defeating them once they were found. Thus, while I could see Dooku going undercover for a bit, I don't see why it would continue as long or as far as it has. After all, his eyes work just as well as ours, so there's no reason to assume that he wouldn't recognize Palpatine under that hood. And once he'd identified the person that was the confirmed last member of the Sith (since he would be the "apprentice" he would know Palpatien is the last true Sith in the Galxy by the law of 2), he could alert the Jedi, or simply do the deed through his own methods and kill Palpatine. End of Sidious, end of Sith, end of story. What, alternatives, then, are there to staying alongside Palpatine after his identity has already been ascertained, and faithfull enacting his plans?

I do agree though, that he sees himself as some kind of martyr whose willing to sacrifice himself and others to make things better.

 

No need to be sorry, Jabba-wocky, I´m not very sensitive
Good points! It´s hard to see what Dooku´s true agenda is. Perhaps he´s just a dreamer who can´t see clearly about his own vision? Maybe he´s too caught up in it to realize that it can´t happen?
I´m sure he wants to kill Sidious though(because he was responsible for Qui-Gon´s death), but perhaps not just yet. There´s still much to do and Sidious is good to have at your side when you´re planning wars and that sort of stuff.

 

>>>>Thus, while I could see Dooku going undercover for a bit, I don't see why it would continue as long or as far as it has.

How's this scenario;

Dooku is a Jedi, like Qui Gon. He also disobeys the code, and thinks he knows better than the Council. However, being a bit older, having seen a bit more, he thinks that the Jedi are tying their own hands by being subservient to a corrupt senate, and denying the powers of the Dark Side that are available to them.

He leaves the Jedi, and ends up finding Sidious, and joins him with the intention of learning the secrets of the Dark Side that the Jedi denied themselves, thinking that the power it woudl grant him would be a useful weapon against a powerful Sith Lord.

Basically, he turns to the Dark Side, figuring that he can easily turn back again.

As he gets more powerful, he becomes more reliant on his power. By the time of AOTC when he meets Obi Wan, he still wants him to join him, so that they can kill Sidious and wipe out the Sith- except he's not going to give up his power now- he's basically going to start the Sith all over again, with him as the master and Obi Wan as the apprentice.

He has been consumed by the Dark Side.

 

Something like that, yes.