Yuuzhan Vong technology change...

Now, a lot of people agree that the Yuuzhan Vong were too unbelieveable and/or non-Star Warish for a villain, alien race for the New Jedi Order. These are some of the changes I think that could have made them more Star Wars like as well as more believeable.

First, drop lava cannons. Unless the commanders are complete idiots and have no armor on thier hulls, the lava cannon would never even break through. Instead, replace them with an highly corrosive acid, that if it hits a ship's shields enough, the shields will drop(think electrical charges, like ion particles are sent through those blasts of acid to make them function like ion cannon bolts). When the shields drop, the ship will be eaten away.

Second, drop Dovin Basals. These are organic ships after all, and to keep a realistic sense, no living ship should be able to make micro-singularities, not even Star Trek had that for the Species 8472.

Third, give the infantry effective long ranged weapons. Their amphistaffs and bug bombs/razors aren't suited to face modern equipped armies. Instead, arm them with animals with the ability to spit acid, and have them shaped into pistol and rifle forms. This will make Jedi unable to block the attack, as well as having armor that doesn't hold up very well to acid.

Fourth, retcon out the whole 'They can't be feeled through the Force'. It's too stupid, and it contradicts Obi-wan's statement in A New Hope.

Finally, make the Vong an experiment the Sith created millennia ago, through various Sith Alchemic experiments. And give them the ability to use the Dark Side to create new war animals so they can actually have an calvary that can stand up against the refitted AT-AT.

(Puts on Flame Shields)

That's how I would have made the Vong, keep them believeable and Star Wars like.

 

I like the idea, but its too late. You can't really retcon that. It's one thing to say that "so-and-so was actually a clone," but that would fundamentally change the entire NJO and and totally contradict the finally. A really nice theoretical what-if? idea, but its not really a retcon.

 

A change to the NJO would be welcomed by most of the people I talked to. And this retcon would keep the Vong's personality, just give them better equipment.

 

...except for the fact they had to be radically different to distance themselves from Generic Alien Threat #6738...

E_S

 

This way, it would make it believeable that they could defeat the New Republic Navy and Army. Ever heard of the terms, PIS and CIS, Plot Induced Stupidity and Character Induced Stupidity? That was the only, absolutely only way they did all that damage. Their biotech, overall, sucked. This retcon gives them the ability to really fight the New Republic without the PIS and CIS handicap.

 

It sucked? Really?

Did you, by any chance, go from Vector Prime to The Unifying Force without reading anything in between?

Tell me, then, why the stuttering laser technique was developed?

E_S

 

It did suck. Their infantry relied on close combat, and their ships shot molten rock. Both of which shouldn't have even been a credible threat to the galaxy, especially one as advanced as Star Wars.

THink about this: Star Wars ships can fight near the corona of stars while not being that badly damaged, can reenter M-Clas Planet atmospheres without burning up, hell, there were air battles between starfighters in volcanoes, and none of these things damaged them. Then, the Vong's lava damages the ships? WTF?

And the Vong's ground tactics were reminicent of medieval ground combat, where firearms weren't in ambundance. How the hell did an army that relied solely on close combat not get torn up by blaster fire?

 

I'm still baffled by people throwing around terms like "they're not believeable"

This is Star Wars. Ships fly faster than light, lasers stop as a pre-designated spot to make sword.

Even if you don't like the things that were done, there's no way to retcon some of the things you mentioned. I guarantee they aren't going to re-write the whole series. The only other option is to have a character 'realize' the 'mistake' one day.

Jacen: "Wait! It just hit me. Remember those guys, ya know, about 8 years ago? That wasn't molten rock they were shooting at us, it was ACID!!"

If you think this is more 'believeable'.......

 

Which are done through technological means. Since Star Wars follows some conventions of science, the Vong's ships shouldn't even go FTL.

Didn't you see what I was thinking when I put down acid? Ion Particles put into the liquid to bring down the shields, then the hulls of the ships are melted away. Lava shouldn't, hell couldn't without massive PIS and CIS take down a starfighter shield.

 

The point I was making is that there can't be a retcon this big. They can't right off thousands of pages just becasue a few people did like the way it was done.


Personally, I think everything they did with the Vong was well explained in the books. But unlike some of the other issues/items that have been retconned, the Vong biotech wasn't just a passing comment or something "insinuated". In this series, they tore the Vong ships apart and found out how they worked. It can't just be written off as a "misunderstanding."

The "science" behind Star Wars has always been in the realm of the fans. I'm willing to bet Lucas didn't sit down and say "show me how the lightsaber could possibly work." I'd likely say he wrote the script and told the FX guys "these guys have laser swords....make it look good."

I don't mind people who don't like the same things as me. That's the kinda thing that makes the world go 'round. But because you don't like it doesn't make it stupid. It just makes it something you don't like.

 

This isn't a retcon; that's the problem. This is a complete rewrite of their tech. Retconning involves taking the existing elements - with disparities, usually - and making them work despite the apparent disagreement. There's no disagreement here; the books very clearly explained why and how things worked the way they did. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it actually doesn't work.

- Keralys

 

I don't think it was ever said that Vong ships actually fired molten rock, just that it looked like molten rock. Same thing with Vong ships looking like asteroids. The basic aspects of the Star Wars universe are far from plausible themselves (the Force, faster-than-light travel, lightsabers, humanoid species evolving on thousands of different planets, 25,000-year technological stagnation), so I really don't think it's much of stretch for organic ships to be able to manipulate gravity.

And yeah, what Master_Keralys said.

 

I'll change the topic to "Yuuzhan Vong Technology change...". Would that make you guys happy?

 

Actually, the New Essential Guide to Technology says that Vong ships did shoot lava, and Wookiepedia reports that the armanent is lava cannons.

 

But, again, what's the point? These things were all more than sufficiently explained in the books. It didn't bother most of the readers of the EU, and those it did can join the rest of us that have certain things bother us, deal with them, and move on. Or, instead, you can keep making a big deal out of something you can't change, keep complaining about how bad it was and how much you hated it, keep letting it ruin your experience.

Your choice.

- Keralys

 

The explanation wasn't good enough. The only reason why the Vong did so well with their tech is due to Plot Induced Stupidity.

It did bother a hell of a lot of readers, and some people did stop buying NJO specifically because of the Vong.

Hey, this is what fans do, they complain about things of a series they like that they didn't like, or hated.

The Star Wars experience has been ruined since NJO and TPM...not much is going to change about that in a hell of a lot of people's eyes.

 

You do realise my comment about you only reading books 1 and 19 of the arc, whilst flippant, ends up becoming more likely the more you comment.

Consider, SSM12; the French had a larger, better army than the Germans in WWII yet were overrun totally and completely. Why?

The leadership was unable to act.

Wait, isn't that what's happened in the NJO arc?

Oh, but it sucked, right...

E_S

 

I think it's refreshing. Back in the day, people saw guns and some started to dream about laser guns. As time went on, people wrote stories about the laser guns. Now, every sci-fi film/book/idea involves lasers, large metal spacecraft, "Energy Shields", and whatever else. Honestly, that kind of technoloy is really cool sounding and may work someday, but some of the more amazing advances in tech these days is in the biotechnology department. I feel that the Human Genome project and subsequent ideas have somewhat shifted the focus from jetpacks to "Your liver growing in a jar, just in case." It's not too difficult to think of two radically different cultures that are from different galaxies experiencing a type of divergent technological evolution. Lost your arm? Our metal/circuitry obsessed society will replace yours with a stronger, metallic arm. A Vong loses an arm? Their Bioloical obsessed society will replace theirs with a stronger arm made of living tissues. Need a spaceship? Build a large hunk of metal that flys. The Vong need a spaceship? Find a very very strong biological material and add componants to make it fly. We need shields on our spaceship? Build some type of Ion shield. Uh oh, the vong can't build an ion shield, but they can use these strange creatures.....

I think the Vong were slightly more advanced in their particular type of technology than the GFFA was. The people with the best technology win, right? No. The Vong probably developed their tech over a longer period of time and their philosophy didn't allow them to adapt to the situation. If the vong could have grabbed "Abominations" and used them with their biotech, they would have done better. Unfortunately, they were too rigid. Luke, Danni, Jacen, Jaina et al....the first chance the got, they were taking apart corelskippers, trying to fly them, learning about Yammosks, hijacking Frigate analogues, putting stutterfire lasers on their ships, changing to fit the war. The only thing the Vong really did that took advantage of the GFFA technology was to black out the communications. They saw the result of Yammosk jamming and thought "Hey, what if we made it so THEY can't communicate." That was huge and gave them a good shot at winning the war. Jacen befriending the "World Brain" and screwing up the new Vong capital really disrupted things and helped to give the shamed ones courage to fight their oppressive caste system. Great Story. I really can't see why people have such a problem with it. I truly think it is not just that "It isn't Star Wars", but more that "This isn't what kind of spaceship or weapon I would want to conquer the galaxy with. It's new, it makes no sense, and I don't understand it. Therefore, it is junk."

Carnage

 

According to your judgment. Not according to mine or many other people's. And yours alone is not sufficient to actually require a retcon - there should be a sense of a general need for it.

And plenty of others picked it up because of the Yuuzhan Vong and have been hooked since, and plenty of us that have read everything since TTT weren't bothered in the least. Your point is?

I'm sorry to hear that's the case for you. It really seems a bit sad. What seems even more sad is that you refuse to give LotF a chance, despite the fact that most everything you complained about in the NJO is different in LotF. It seems to me you have your mind already made up, and that, sir, is unhealthy.

- Keralys

 

I did read all the books, but I have trouble remembering them since they aren't on my person at all times.

At least their weapons were comparable, and the Germans didn't seem to manifest fleets and armies out of no where.

The Vong's leadership did suck, how many times were fleets sent off on futile skirmishes or battles, just because Lah wanted it? How about the drop plot point that the Vong force was diminishing, yet suddenly they acquire a massive fleet? These are called 'Plot Induced Stupidity' moments.

Ender_Sai, you keep ignoring my points as well.

 

Yes, the YV force was diminishing. In fact, it had gone down by a third as of DW. Wow. A third. Even with the debacle at the end of that book, that leaves them with at least half their initial fleet of warships, given that three years of constant warfare had only dropped their numbers by a third. Plenty of fleet left, don't you think?

- Keralys

 

NR leadership sucked just as bad, and since they failed when they needed to be on the defensive, their government failed first. But in the end leadership on both sides sucked, and both governments collapsed.

 

All you need to do to justify the YV tech is the threefold rationalization

Dovin Basals: Force based bio-engines. Use a narrow spectrum of the force to generate gravitic anomalies, much like a fusion of the brain of Irek Ismaren and some sith abomination.

Voduun Crab Armor: Is immune to blasterfire, and requires the monomolecular edges of Amphistaffs to penetrate, either that or a blaster cannon.
&
Amphistaffs: Chained power glands provide a monomolecular vibrational edge.

Lava Cannons: Molten Semi Solid Hyperplasmatic fusionable matter.

 

If you read the books,then you know that trying to "explain away" the biotech of the Vong changes the very essense of the characters themselves. This was a race who abhorred, in the STRONGEST terms, any technology that wasn't raised or grown. In most cases (though there are a few exceptions), they didn't even want to mess with anything that wasn't still alive. To change any of this changes their very nature.

The whole point of the YV was to put the characters up against an enemy that was so far off the "norm" that they could barely even respond. It made it a real threat, because they actually had to think and develop technology and tactics that were never seen before. This is how stories.....and characters......advance.

If you don't like the NJO, that's fine, but just leave it alone. I have no fears that any of it is going to change...just won't happen, but stop trying to convince everyone else that we must all believe in "plot stupidity" just because we don't agree with you.

 

As much as I have complained about the overall style and execution of the NJO books, the Vong bio-tech never bothered me that much. IMHO, it wasn't any more or less credible than the rest of SW tech: repulsors, lightsabers, FTL, WMD, droids, clone armies, etc... As a matter of fact, I found it more fascinating and profoundly frustrating than anything. If I could pick a few scenes that I would like to see played out in live action, I think the look on Mara's face the first time she faced a Vong warrior would be absolutely priceless. Or the first time some X-wing shots dissapeared into a singularity, to the astonishment of the starfighter pilot. It was almost the same feeling as the first time the Falcon shot into hyperspace or Obi-wan crossed blades with Vader on the deck of the Death Star - I was left with a profound sense of wonder about what would happen next.

After all, this is all just sci-fi fiction franchise based rather liberally on a few space opera movies made nearly 30 years ago. At some point, whether you like it or not, you either have to accept certain conditions of the story or let it go altogether.