Gaming Zelda Fans Come Hither...

Hmm, I'll have to think about that- that seems to require a lot more fudging than the map theory I'm presenting. I have ALTTP/TWW Hyrule castle as formerly being Lon Lon Ranch, the deserts are the same, and the Kokiri are off-screen beyond the eastern palace of ALTTP.

I also prefer a single timeline approach to things. The Tower of the Gods is right on top of the ALTTP/TWW Hyrule Castle, with the Tower of Hera almost directly "north" of it on Death Mountain (as it is in ALTTP) under water. Considering that, then the volcano island becomes Death Mountain (which makes sense since Zora Falls was near/on Death Mountain and the Zora have evolved there (at least the ones seen in TWW), the Kokiri become the Korok in the east, etc.

Well, it theoretically did happen quickly in Southern Hyrule once the Katrina-effect occurs, while it's slower by comparison in the regions surrounding it (but even that could have happened quickly).

Lake Hylia has shifted it's size and shape over the centuries. It's also possible that the two eastern palaces, while similar, are not the same buildings or was reconstructed in a different location after something happens to the original. There are so many ancient dungeons and palaces that appear and vanish over the centuries in Hyrule, it's not plausible, IMO, to try and use them as a sole anchor in a theory, with a few exceptions, and even then need some artistic interpretation (like the Tower of Hera is not as high up Death Mountain in TWW as it is in ALTTP, but then neither is that "north bridge" out of the castle, so if that was destroyed, there would be a higher climb up there involved). Death Mountain, the castles, villages, Zora's Fountain, desert, lake & lost woods/castle town are generally the most consistent anchors, IMO, and these seem to match up more or less pretty well outside of the TMC/FSA sub-series, which potentially requires a little more fudging.

 

I see, so you propose that TMC's map is actually a portion of the TP map, which in itself is adjacent to the ALTTP/LOZ/AOL maps? But doesn't that end up duplicating several locations like Zora's Fountain, Hyrule Field, Kakariko, Lake Hylia, etc?

Have you considered the mirroring of TP between the original GCN design and the Wii version? I'm still playing Twilight Princess so I don't yet know the whole terrain by heart (just getting the tears to get to the Water Temple), but I think the original, unflipped GCN design is the one to go with.

It seems to me that, in the Wii version, Death Mountain is in the west of the TP map, Kakariko just southish of it, the castle is in the Lon Lon Ranch ALTTP location in the "middle" of Hyrule. Lake Hylia is slightly south east of the castle. So you rotate the map so that Death Mountain is at the north and then mirror-flip it to simulate the GCN version. This places Death Mountain in the north, Kakiriko now just south east of it ala OOT, the castle is still in the middle, and Lake Hylia is once again east/southeast of the castle. Boom, we're now in the same general alignments as OOT/ALTTP/LOZ.

The theory I generally work with is as follows (I ommit FS/FSA for now as I'm not personally clear on it just yet, still gotta play those more, and same for Twilight Princess, I haven't yet locked in my decision on it's placement other than "sometime after OOT". For now, I'm assuming it's between MM and ALTTP, given the placement of Kakariko sharing the OOT placement instead of the ALTTP placement):

-The Minish Cap
-Ocarina of Time
-Majora's Mask
-(Twilight Princess)
-A Link to the Past
-Oracle of Ages/Seasons
-Link's Awakening
-(FS/FSA?)*
-The Wind Waker**
-Phantom Hourglass
-Legend of Zelda
-Adventure of Link

*Temporary placement going by the "Hyrule island is due to early stages of Great Flood" theory talked about earlier, as well as the similarities to ALTTP map.

*I realize this isn't a popular placement, as the game implies a closer placement to OOT, but, story-wise, I cannot justify Ganon breaking out of the Dark World prior to ALTTP (at least without invoking a dual-timeline theory which i'd rather not) as it jeopardizes the integrity of that story's premise. Additionally, the Great Flood makes for an excellent explanation as to the state Southern Hyrule finds itself in LOZ (people living in caves atop mountains that used to be islands, the castle washed away, etc). So, basically, I do not take "lack of mention of ALTTP's events" to mean the same thing as "proof it didn't happen then".

 

Well, keep in mind then that (assuming OOT, ALTTP & LOZ are the same map) the OOT "North" is True North, while the ALTTP north is Magnetic North, the direction a compass would point to (as delinated by the black arrow on the OOT compass rose).

Ah, I think I understand now- I thought you were aligning the ALTTP map as the same one in OOT (with the castle moved to lon lon ranch), but you are essentially making TMC/OOT/TP as one map region adjacent to LOZ/ALTTP, correct?

I could accept there being two deserts (that clouded-over region on the OOT map allows for some interpretation and leighway) and I fully agree that there are at least 2 Lost Woods- the Kokiri Forest one is clearly on the opposite side of the map from the ALTTP/LOZ ones. In my proposal, the LOZ one is the same as the ALTTP one, it's just become overgrown and spread out without Kakariko's population there to keep it in check (as the village is now the graveyard).

I'm very hesitant to say there's more than 1 Lake Hylia. I can accept it changing shape, size or even minor shifts in position due to time (OOT to ALTTP), flooding (effects of TWW), new rivers draining it (LOZ), villager irrigation efforts (speculation) etc. But I can't see there being multiple Lake Hylias within roughly the same epoch of time.

The North Castle is the starting point of Zelda 2, where the sleeping Princess is. It's named in the AOL in the manual.


Anyways, I'm gonna whip up some new graphics today and tommorow to illustrate my "they're all the same area" theory. At this point almost all of them fit in my eyes, with exception to the FS map, which seems like it's a zoomed-in version of the FSA map, with exception that there's 3 volcanos in FS not in FSA and there's no Zora's Fountain in FS that is in FSA. The exagerated proportions to things also make it hard to take them accurately.

[image=http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/four-swords/maps/map.jpg] [image=http://www.zeldawiki.org/images/c/c9/FSA_Overworld.jpg]

 

Ok, I figured I'd start off with the more obvious ones first- OOT/ALTTP/LOZ. I've also done two quick ones illustrating my theory for TWW and FSA thus far. All have been adjusted to represent magnetic north (ie "north" in LOZ & ALTTP, NE in OOT)

(I'll spare dial-up users the load times and just link to these maps)

First, comparing OOT to ALTTP, notating major landmarks appearing in both in red, with yellow being more speculatory (as well as delineating what happened to the river that once ran through Gerudo Valley, potentially explaining why the either died out or moved on, due to the lack of water- perhaps a deliberate act by the Hylians and/or Zora?). keep in mind the OOT map is shown at an angle, so there is some perspective issues here to consider, which shortens the apparent distance between somen landmarks.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/1-OOT-ALTTP.jpg

Next a quick stab at explaining FSA as a sort of "while the flood happens" state:

(file removed, replaced with newer version linked in subsequent post)

That map is more heavily stylized than the others, though. However, the interesting element here is it may suggest what happened to "New" Kakariko Village prior to the flood. This might have forced people to relocate to "Old" Kakariko aka Windfall island as the flood overtakes the rest of Hyrule, as suggsted here:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/3-ALTTP-TWW.jpg

Now since the distances here are not accurate, this one doesn't line up perfectly, but is generally close. It depicts what I believe to be the Great Deku Tree as being further south than it appears elsewhere, but the fairy island/fairy connectiom could be a more location-accurate alternative for my prediction, however, I'm willing to chalk it up to perhaps the size of Hyrule castle beneath the water, so it actually might still be more east than SE than it appears initially.

I postulate that Windfall Island was Old Kakariko, and people took refuge in the higher-elevated old town when the floods came in. Additionally Dragonroost Island is part of the Death Mountain range as well as Zora's Fountain. Spectacle Rock represents the mountain range extending towards the west, with either the Forsaken Fortress representing the Tower of Hera region (though the TOH is usually depicted as being to the other side of Spectacle Rock, I think t's close enough to be fudged given the scaling issues at play, though alternatively, the Crescent Moon Island region would strike me as being more geographically correct since the TOH is shown as being more north of the castle than NW. Still, the FF is roughly north of the castle so it could still work.

And lastly, we have the post-flood ALTTP/LOZ comparison, showing the graveyard of New Kakariko and several other coinciding features. I suggest a possible connection between one Level entrance and the former Eastern Palace, but that's just a loose idea.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/4-ALTTP-LOZ.jpg

 

Thanks for that link, I've been looking for something like that. And, yeah, it's been awhile since I've played FSA (and, IIRC, me and my friend have only gone through the first couple of stages so far) and finding a map image online with area labels to refresh my memory or use as an accurate reference chart was difficult at best. I'll revise that FSA image in the near future- it was only a rough guess based on what little info I had/could perceive visually from that map image. It's why I didn't include it among my more absolute comparisons.

So, ok, great- looking at that flash map for FSA, here's what I see, and don't see, lining up then:

-Castle is the centralized ALTTP Castle.
-The Desert is the Desert, same lower leftish quadrant.
-Frozen Hyrule appears to be in the swamp/marshes of ALTTP, or at least part of that region where the two smaller bodies of water are, perhaps extending to the west in the grassy/rocky area prior to the Desert. On the OOT map, this area would seemingly be in the clouded area where the compass rose is. Also interesting to note that we're seeing water ways carved to connect to the coast, like in LOZ's map.
-The Fields seem to be where Lake Hylia once was- thsi would palce the Eastern Palace in it's proper location if they are the same thing... and if they're not, I'm almost tempted to say it'd be a great canidate for the NE grey island area in LOZ where you get a heart container, if it weren't so far south.
-The Swamps strike me as being the muddy, rocky area to the castle's immediate south east in ALTTP.
-Tower of Flames strikes me as a perfect Tower of Hera canidate.
-Death Mountain lines up fine.
-"New" Kakariko (now that I can see it! )is about in the right spot too, as is the Lost Woods.
-This added Dark World Temple is new, though, but is approx in the same place as the former Gerudo Valley. Ganon visiting mom and dad for the weekend?
-Tower of Winds is also new.
-Lake Hylia I cannot figure out- it obviously looks like, and is placed where, Zora's Fountain has always been. But your right, there's no way that's the same Lake as on the other maps. It has to be a renamed Zora's Fountain or something, with the smaller lake it pools into being the Zora's Domain region on the ALTTP map. Maybe something happened to the Zoras and the Hylians took over after their irrigation efforts drained the original Lake Hylia? Either they started to evolve into their TWW forms or devolve into their "Zola" forms (or maybe both, representing off-shoot species).

I'm thinking maybe some of these discrepancies can be attributed to the apparent merger of the Dark World and Light World in the game- not all of them, but some. I'll reillustrate this next time.

True, but I don't see how it can't be intentional that the arrow is pointing to the north of the ALTTP/LOZ maps, and, as far as I know, such an arrow on a compass rose indicates magnetic north. We could chalk up the more radical degree difference between it and true north as a Tingle-error, maybe?

 

Eureka! By jove, I think I've got it!

[image=http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/2-ALTP-FSA.jpg]

If the Fields aren't in fact a dried up Lake Hylia (which is posisble, but...) what if...Lake Hylia is already under water? Look at the association between the river and it's crossings. I now think lake Hylia has already been overcome by the sea.

And... if there no longer exists any lake there... then it stands to reason they might name another body of water Lake Hylia!


[AceVentura]Yes! Yes! Can you feel that? Huh?[/AceVentura]


Aaaand- if that is Lake Hylia that far south, then that pushes the Eastern Palace further north in relation to it...which means it WOULD line-up with the position of the grey area of LOZ!! (and, perhaps, that big green tree immediately above it is in fact the Deku Tree?)

[image=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fa/DeadlyManeuvers.jpg]

I love it when a plan comes together.


Also, some interesting observations regarding the water ways shown in teh FSA map...

[image=http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/2a-FSA-LOZ.jpg]

The red arrow denotes a possible spot where the rocks were broken away for the sea to gain access to the Lake during the flood, as well as cut it off after the waters retreated. Combined with the rerouted Zora river to the sea from the former castle areas in the middle lakes, and the Lake shrank to smaller sizes.

 

On a non-geographic note- I just got to the cut scene prior to the water temple where the Light Spirit tells the story of the three Interlopers who attempted to claim the Sacred Realm as their own- said to bge after a great battle. Now, presumably that great battle was the Imprisoning War, so how is it that the Sacred Realm, and the Triforce, is intact? Am I just reading this situation wrong due to not having the full picture yet?

 

Though the story of the Imprisoning War is linked to Ganon acquiring the Triforce from the Sacred Realm- which clearly takes place in OOT. The change to "sages" in the GBA version also indicates to me an intention to clarify the events of OOT as being the Imprisoning War, on top of the other aligning elements of the number of sages etc.

Also, placing FSA before ALTTP harms ALTTP's story much like placing TWW before it does, IMO. Because now you have Ganondorf locked away, freed, then locked away again, then freed again.



One thought about the Interloper conflict that came to mind (and I'll see how it goes after I finish more of the game) after rewatching part of GT's Zelda Retrospective, is apparently TMC mentions a war that takes place long before OOT where people fought over finding the Sacred Realm, and it took a hero brandishing the Four Sword to end the conflict. Perhaps this is the conflict mentioned in that flashback?

 

However, ALTTP does establish that things can go into the Dark World from the Light, just not the otehr way around (for the mot part). My theory suggests that Wisdom and Courage made their way back to Ganon via a Dark World entrance (Warp tile or otherwise- Agahnim seems to be able to do it with his magic as well) between OOT and ALTTP. This maintains the same number of P/W/C splits (ignoring fractal splits for now).

So the "big" splits would be:

1) Split in OOT, eventually reassembled in the Dark World by Ganon, recovered by Link and left whole as shown in the Oracle games.

2) Split prior to TWW, reassembled in TWW, to be whole for the backstory of AOL...

3) ...so that it could be split into P/W/C again and Courage locked away in the Great Palace, to eventually be recovered by Link at the end of AOL, reuniting the whole Triforce once again.


BTW, thanks for tiptoeing around the TP spoilers, I know it hampers the discussion a little, but it's appreciated.

 

However, if Ganon is sealed away by the Four Sword in FSA, that can't be the same imprisoning as the one he's freed from in ALTTP- ALTTP quite clearly says Ganon/Agahnim is trying to break the seal of the seven sages/wise men.

Also, just going by the map, it seems to me that the Dark World is invading or merging with the Light World, not being a separate dimension.

Anyways, ignoring the FSA subseries for the moment...

I see Ganon's history as such: After the events of OOT, he manages to have the other two Triforces brought to him in the Dark World and then tries to break free. After being killed by Link, Twinrova and co try to resurrect him, but he's weakened and defeated- but he's free of the Dark World at least. His spirit wanders and influences the Wind Fish as a Nightmare. Eventually he manages to become corporeal again and, being outside of the Dark World, he can transform back to Ganondorf. Then he becomes petrified by Link in TWW and later somehow escapes. Much later on, his armies attack Hyrule again and he reacquires the Triforce of Power, allowing him to turn beastie again.


As for splits- while we've only "seen" one "big split", anytime a Triforce is by itself means there's been a "big split" (I don't think we've ever seen any evidence of there being a 2/3rds Triforce with only 1 component split off, so if one goes they all split apart). Which means, at the very least, splits occured prior to TWW & LOZ/AOL, as the Triforce is only whole in OOT (at times), ALTTP & the Oracles.

 

Haven't finished Phantom Hourglass yet (IIRC, last time I played I was trying to find my way past the quadrant of the map with the mermaid hunter and hidden whale island). Heck, still haven't finished TP (really haven't had time to play much of anything for a few months, alas).

EDIT- Trains?! What the hell?