CT That Old Man Anakin

I prefer the Hayden ghost. In large part, for me, the preference is based upon the fact that it is much more difficult to dissociate Hayden's face from the evil Anakin committed as Darth Vader than it is when Anakin is portrayed by Sebastian Shaw. We never see Shaw in any other circumstances (except for the death scene, but even then, he looks very different due to the heavy use of makeup). With Hayden, though, we've seen some of the worst of Anakin -- we've seen him kill innocents and be entombed in the suit. You can't look at him and ignore the fact that this is a man who has done evil -- this is what Luke is redeeming.

I think some fans (not all) miss that ability to dissociate. It dampens their enjoyment of the scene to see someone who did such terrible things returned to the light.

I think it's important for precisely that reason, though -- redemption is not about forgetting, it is about acknowledging a wrong that has been done and then making an effort to right those wrongs, in whatever manner one can. With Hayden's ghost, I feel that it is easier to acknowledge the evil while recognizing how far he has come. My perspective, in a nutshell.

 

That's why Lucas says that Anakin cannot be redeemed for his crimes, but he can become what Luke believed he was capable of. That being a good man. There is no ignoring of his crimes. There is only the humanity freed from the destruction.

 

First off, there is no way to definitively say if it makes more sense to have old or young Anakin because we don't know the intricacies of force ghosts. However, in my interpretation, Hayden makes more sense as it was the last way a good, wholesome Anakin saw himself. He would have had no way of knowing what he even looked like under the mask.

 

I disagree. They both make sense. It just depends on the way you see it.

Becoming a force ghost is Jedi thing.
The younger ghost graps the idea that Anakin returned to the Jedi he had been before he had turned to the dark side. It makes sense.
It's a Jedi technique and and he appears as the Jedi he was before the betrayel, the turn etc.
The older ghost interprets the sitatuation in the way that Anakin most returned to the good side and appeared in the way he would have been if he hadn't turned.

Both makes sense. It's about preference.
Personally, I prefer the younger ghost because I'm a saga fan

 

Where did Anakin even learn to become a force ghost in the first place? Was he grandfathered in?

 

Where do you get this from? It was old age, ancient age:

Tippett: "Our intention was to create through makeup an age-wrinkled face with a large split cranium that was beginning to grow apart. We felt the Emperor should be ancient, not old, so the quality of the wrinkle was important." - Rinzler, p160

why? if the darkside ages you, as YOU assert, shouldn't Dooku look older? He's been using itfor at least13 years as of RotS.

He joined the Force prior tobeing hit byVader's lightsaber.

He was already evil when he looked like that. He'd have to go back to AotC padawan Anakin or TPM kid Anakin to appear as he was before he became evil.

see above

That'snot how he looked BEFORE he turned to the darkside, that's how he looked WHEN he turnedtothe darkside.

 

If it's how he looked WHEN he turned to the dark side, it's also how he looked BEFORE he turned to the dark side.

 

Amen to that.... I would say with few exceptions that most of the modifications should have been reconsidered for inclusion...

 

As much as I like symantic arguements with you Arawn, once again you know exactly what the statement means. He was well on his way to the darkside looking like he did in RotS. And if you want to play symantics, it is also how he looked AFTER he turned, which destroys the whole arguement being made for using that appearance.

If Shaw was too old looking for Lucas once he changed the timeline of the PT, then he should've aged Hayden to the appropriate age and not keep him looking evil and younger than his son.

Otherwise, Shaw is the perfect representation of not only a redeemed Anakin, but a proud father - the point of the scene. Young, creepy Hayden isn't.

 

Excellent point.

Another excellent point. It's hard to see the Hayden ghost and think "proud father" when he's younger than Luke in that form...

 

That you're trying to pretend he didn't really turn to the dark side at a specific point in ROTS? If you simply refuse to accept that part of the plot, what's the point in talking about it?

By that logic, the argument for using the original appearance is also destroyed, because that's also AFTER he turned. But he turned back, you say? Doesn't matter. Turns to the dark side don't matter, right?

"Young, creepy" Anakin was a "proud father" in ROTS.

 

You didn't answer my question, why would turning to the Dark Side keep your soul from aging?
Also, as T-R- said, Palpatine was designed to look ancient, so he has been using the Dark Side to keep himself alive much longer than normal. So his look was not to show how the Dark side ages you more quickly.

Really? But then Anakin should look Shaw as that was how he looked when he died.
Anakin turned to the Dark side, lived a number of years as Darth Vader but turned back and died as a good man. So based on what you say, he should look like Shaw.

But what Dark Side damage? He lost both arms and legs, one due to Dooku, the rest due to Obi-Wan. He got badly burned, partly Obi-Wan again. He has been in an iron lung for 20 years so him looking pale isn't odd. All this is direct physical damage. Obi-Wan is healed from his physical damage, so the Shaw ghost shows the same thing, except he also has different clothes.

The corruption of the Dark Side? Again, Dooku has used it for 10+ years and doesn't look all the worse for it. Palpatine was designed to be ancient. As for Anakin, see above for why he would not look so good. Also, from what I've read, when RotJ was made, Lucas had in mind a slightly older Anakin. From what I remember Anakin was supposed to be in his 60's in RotJ.
Lucas cast an older actor to be unmasked Vader. But he cast a less than 40 year old actor to be the "ancient" Palpatine. Had the unmasking scene been filmed when the choice was made to have the ghost scene back in?
Lastly, putting actors in the film without them knowing about is lazy, among other things, so that Lucas did it with Shaw is not an excuse to do the same with Hayden. They are actors, let them actually do their job.

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Hayden did plenty of evil as Anakin. If you want a face before he became evil then Jake Lloyd would fit better.
I can sort of accept the idea that Hayden is a "residual self-image" thing, like in the Matrix.
But this bit about how the Dark Side stops your soul from aging seems too convoluted.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I disagree. We see Shaw under the Vader mask. So that means essentially that all the things we see Vader to in the OT, Shaw's face was under there. So in terms of great evil, Shaw did quite a lot. But he also put an end to it. Shaw's Anakin was finally able to do the right thing and break the chains his younger self forged. To let go of his anger and hate, and destroy the man who has brought so much pain and suffering on the galaxy. And he did it knowing that he would die in the process, at least that is my view.
Jake was the beginning of Anakin, Hayden the middle and Shaw the end. Then you had the Vader mask.
To me, Shaw shows the full arc of the character. It is the face of someone at peace with himself, that has learned the lessons his younger self could not/did not want to learn. Shaw's ghost shows the full journey of the character and how those things are not forgotten.
It shows the Jedi he once was and now is again, it shows the proud father and it also shows the face of an evil man who finally overcame his own demons and became a good man again. Shaw righted the wrong, not Hayden. Shaw put an end to the horror, as Lucas calls it, Hayden began it.

Lastly, to whom are these ghosts showing themselves? To Luke or to the audience?
To an audience that has seen all six films, Hayden makes some sense in that he has been the face on Anakin the longest, if we discount the mask. To Luke, Shaw made and still makes better sense as that is the person Luke saw and spoke to. Sure he could probably figure out that the young guy is his father, but the moment between father and son, I think, is weakened.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I disagree regarding Shaw. We never see his face attached to any of Vader's crimes. There's always the mask in place and this is a very strong psychological element. There's a reason that the stormtroopers, for instance, wear helmets -- it dissociates them from their humanity. The Darth Vader mask also tends to have a dissociative effect for that reason. And thus, it's harder to associate Shaw's face with Anakin/Vader's crimes because we never see him do anything villainous. Which is certainly not the case for Hayden.

And, no, he didn't "destroy" the man who had brought so much pain and suffering on the galaxy. You can't change the past; you can only move forward. More important than trying to erase what you have done (which is a futile effort) is to accept your wrongdoings and try to atone for them -- to say, "I recognize that I have done terrible things. But I know now that they are wrong and I will do what is right."

I agree with you that Shaw looks peaceful, but I dislike the "proud father" aspect since Anakin didn't raise Luke -- he can take no credit for the fact that his son is such a good person.

But, regardless, Hayden is as much Anakin as Shaw is --they're the same person. Every action Hayden took Shaw did as well. It is inseparable.

Also, as to who the ghosts are showing themselves to -- in Luke's case it hardly matters. Shaw was so deformed that his revitalized spirit looks like a completely different person -- aged, but hearty, healthy and whole. And Luke is capable to recognizing his father's presence. It is that presence, rather than the face, that Luke associates with his father since the man has been trapped within the suit for so long.

 

Now you might actually be getting it. Older Anakin, whether Shaw or an aged Hayden, is the man that turned back to the good side and killed Sidious. Older Anakin is who Luke redeemed. Older Ankain is who Luke saw under the mask. Older Anakin is who died on DSII. Not the young early 20's Anakin.

No he wasn't. He was a father to be. Kids weren't born until the end of the film after he turned and got pwned by Obi-Wan.

EXACTLY! That's why an older Anakin makes sense and a younger Anakin doesn't. Thanks for making my point.

It doesn't matter if he raised Luke or can take credit for it. He can still be proud of his son, more so because he didn't set a good example for Luke.

Interesting interpretation. Too bad the movie shows what Luke SEES, not what he SENSES.

 

I disagree. I think the Hayden ghost works better here because it shows Anakin accepting what he did rather than trying to erase it and present the world with a face that never was -- Shaw's face. The Shaw ghost never existed as a physical being in the Star Wars universe. He was twisted and deformed by the Dark Side so how he should have looked as an old man -- as Shaw -- never came into being. I prefer the Hayden ghost for the very fact that it is a stark reminder of the past -- that despite Anakin's return to the light, the evil he committed cannot be undone and shouldn't be forgotten. Anakin didn't "destroy" the evil person that he was -- he accepted the horrors he had wrought, admitted he was wrong, and strove to make amends, even if it was a futile effort.

Too bad that's not what pride means:

Proud: feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.

"a proud grandma of three boys"

Anakin's pride in Luke would be misplaced here because he and his son barely knew each other. That he is biologically related to Luke does not mean he should feel he deserves any credit for Luke's achievements or that he helped Luke along this path. Luke did it all on his own.

Of course Luke can sense his father. He sensed him as he was escaping Bespin. He sensed him as they approached Endor. Luke knows what his father's presence feels like. And visually, he (by necessity) is going to associate his father with the suit. He sees Anakin's horribly disfigured face when he removes the helmet, but this face is hardly the spitting image of a healthy, whole Sebastian Shaw. Shaw's image means as much to Luke as Hayden's does. Because it's his father's presence that really matters to him, rather than what he looks like. Suit, disfigurements, or ghost, Anakin is still the same person.

 

No it doesn't and I'll explain why in moment.

Hayden wasn't trying to look young. That's just a by product of how he looked when doing the costume testing. He wasn't told to look evil. He was just told to smile, look to his left then back at the camera.

Because when a Sith Lord dies, they cannot retain their identity upon their death. It involves compassion, selflessness and a state of goodness that is the antithesis of everything they stand for. When the Jedi help Anakin to retain his identity, he has forsaken the dark side and he made the journey over, which resulted in his appearing as he did before he became evil. It goes back to Lucas's original idea that Vader falls into the lava and is burned, but the Jedi are able to prevent his death and when he returns to the corporeal world, he is physically healed from all of his injuries. He no longer has cybernetic limbs and doesn't need the suit anymore. When Lucas decided to have Anakin become a ghost, he kept the physical form being healed, but only added the aging when making ROTS, since he had a younger Anakin. Which went back to what he told Kasdan, which was that they looked the same age, but there was a difference.

The casting of a younger actor for Palpatine was done so that when Lucas did decide to do the prequels, Ian would be the right age to start with. With Vader, Lucas had initially wanted to avoid showing what Vader looked like in TESB, but Kershner showed too much, in his view. So for ROTJ, Lucas needed him to be scarred, but not super bad as he didn't want to scare children and wanted to evoke sympathy. The decision to hire Shaw came around the time the studio work for the Death Star scenes commenced. He was only hired to do the unmasking and not the rest. That was a late decision.

Well, considering that most people didn't know that, I'd say it wasn't that big a deal.

You can still be proud of what your child has accomplished, regardless of your involvement in their life. Anakin is proud of Luke because he didn't become a Sith Lord. He became a Jedi Knight and now understands what it means to be one. He's also proud because Luke believed in him and never wavered in his belief in him, once he accepted the truth. Lastly, he's proud that Luke and Leia have found each other and have strong friends surrounding and supporting them. He knows that Leia has Han. He knows that Luke will rebuild the Jedi Order. He knows that they will continue to restore peace and justice to the Republic and tear down the walls of the Empire.

 

If Anakin accepted what he did, he wouldn't try to pass himself off as a younger version of his current self. Shaw's face/older Anakin was a face he had under the mask and scars. He did exist. Since, as you say, the evil can't be undone, Anakin shouldn't look young - trying to visually undo his responsibility.

Seriously? It doesn't matter if Anakin can get any credit for what Luke did, he can still be proud. See underlined section of your post. I can be proud of my favorite sports team for winning a game even though I had no direct involvement.

In each of those scenes, Luke flat out says he sensed his father's presence. The end scene was all about what Luke saw, not what he sensed.

Once again, if you have to invent paragraphs of material toexplain something that isn't inthe film it does not make sense.

When the Jedi help Anakin to retain his identity, after he has forsaken the darkside, Anakin is an olderman. He is not 20. He should appear as he did when he made the right choice, not when he made the wrong choice.

Exactly. And an older Anakin represents that better than a young Anakin who is younger than Luke.

This is completely not true as described in Making of RotJ. Ian's casting had nothing to do with the PT

 

Maybe someone's already mentioned this.... and if so I apologize... however...

How would Luke recognize his father in his younger state??!!?!? He never saw any pictures that we saw/heard of.... so this other Force Ghost (Hayden) that shows up - why isn't he asking himself "Who the heck is this youngster?" He wouldn't have any idea that it's his father since he wouldn't recognize him!!

While I'm busy in conjecture... let me ask, as a ghost why would a being be limited to a single outward form? i.e. could not Anakin appear to Luke in one form (Sebastian) and to someone else as his younger self (Hayden)? And potentially have a completely different self-image of himself?

 

I do not agree, we see the face behind the mask so that ties that face with Vaders actions.
I think you underestimate the abilities of the audience. We mostly see the mask yes but once we have seen the face behind the mask, we understand that this was the face behind the mask.
So, Shaw did all the things Vader did in the OT.

Take the Avatar series, you don't see the face of the Fire Lord until third season. Then you do see quite a bit of him but even if it was just once, we would now have a face of the Fire Lord and that face is now connected to what we saw the Fire Lord do in season 1-2.
Or take the first season of Korra and the main bad guy, Amon. He is shown with a mask most of the time but we do see his face eventually, so that face is now tied with Amons actions.

With the stormtrooper we never see their face but we do with Vader and that makes a big difference.
Take the film "Duel", we never see the face of the truck driver and that makes him mysterious and strange. If his face was shown, even very briefly, that effect is gone.

I think you misunderstod me, I was talking about Palpatine here. And Palpatine he most certainly did destroy.

As others said, you can be proud over someone even though you had little to do with it. If my country's soccer team wins the World championship, I would feel some pride even though I didn't train them.
Anakin can feel prid in his son, even though he didn't raise him. He can also feel gratidue to his son.

If they are inseparable, then why change the ghosts?
Also, Shaw has done all the things Hayden did because he was once that person. BUT Hayden has not done all that Shaw did, because he had not yet become that man. And that what is important to me, Shaw is a representation of ALL of Anakins actions, good and bad. Hayden is just a part of it.
Shaw put an end to the horror, Hayden began it. Shaw had learned to let go and be at peace, hayden was not at peace and has not yet learned to let go.
Thus Shaw, to me, is a better representation of the redeemed Anakin, because he was the Anakin that redeemed himself.

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Shaw was bald and pale, he didn't have all that much scars on his face, he did not look like the elephant man. He is quite recognisable.
Vader wanted to see Luke with his own eyes, Shaws eyes. Luke finally has a face to his father, pale and hairless yes but still a face. Shaw fits Luke's image of his father better than hayden, both because of looks but also age.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

This still doesn't answer my question. Sith Lord can't become Force ghosts no, but then neither can most people in the SW galaxy. Only Jedi are able to do this and far from all Jedi manage it.
Only Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin managed it. It wasn't just about being selfless and good when you die, it also required some specila training.
From what the films say and what I've read, all livings beings loose their identity when they die, their essence is dispersed in the Force and is gone. So in this regard, Sith Lords are no different to most people.

So I'll ask again, why would turning to the Dark Side stop your soul from aging?

Dooku grew older after he turned, he did not look like he aged far more than normal. So there was no "Dark Side damage" with him. Anakin was badly injured but those injuries was not directly due to the Dark side but due to wounds, getting burned and put in a suit.
Say a Jedi lives half his/her life underground and thus gets very pale. If that jedi gets a Force ghost, would that be pale or have a normal skin color?

Anakin looking young in the new version could be due to him seeing himself that way, or that is how Yoda and Obi-Wan saw him. Others have said that it is a reward from the Force for destroying the Sith. Still others say that the "real" Anakin was in some dark side prison while Vader ran around in Anakins body, doing all manner of evil.

It is lazy wheter people know about it or not. And people did find out about Hayden rather quickly.
Also I find it a bit unproffesional. Filming an actor and then putting them in the movie without them knowing about it?

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Exactly, well said.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I agree with this. The way I see it, since a force ghost is the essence/soul of a living (force-sensitive) being, and thus should retain the full imprint and memory of all its former physical forms. So when it comes to Anakin and Hayden vs. Shaw, it makes far more sense for Anakin to appear as his younger self rather than an elderly man that he never was physically, because his spirit wouldn’t have any memory of the “Shaw-form” - only the scarred “Vader-form”.

Therefore, I don’t think Obi-Wan and Yoda are in any way stuck with the form they had when they died, they merely chose to appear to Luke in those forms because that was how Luke knew them. I see no reason why Obi-Wan and Yoda shouldn’t be able to appear as their younger selves if they wanted to.

(That being said, I prefer Shaw over Hayden because Shaw seems at peace with himself and he practically glows with pride and love for his children.)

 

Why would his ability to sense Anakin magically go away at just the right time to support your ghost argument?

Then he'd be limbless, scarred, and generally a mess. Shaw's ghost presents an image of a man who never physically existed; in that sense it's a "what-if". We may imagine a different timeline or sequence of events branching off from the fateful decision in ROTS. In such a timeline Anakin does not turn and consequently does not get dismembered and burned up, potentially ending up looking somewhat like a flesh-and-blood version of Shaw's ghost ( with allowances being made for Anakin's PT age ). Shaw's ghost thus represents an image of Anakin as if he had not turned; Hayden's ghost depicts him at the point when the timeline leading to that Anakin was closed off. As such, Shaw's age aside, one ghost is ultimately no more "correct" than the other. Both depict a reversion of Anakin's turn to the dark side, but they do it in different ways. For Anakin, in a sense redemption is reversion - to the person he was before he turned to the dark side, or more properly that person's relationship to the Force.

 

The question imo is was Anakin Skywalker dead after ROTS? If he was then how could he come back in ROTJ? I think a part of Anakin Skywalker was still alive in Vader but pushed deep down, really deep down. If there was still enough of Anakin to stay alive and come back, he would still age (maybe not as old as Shaw was but still older than Hayden). Besides why would he want to be Hayden again? There were some good parts in his life but wouldn't he want to move on? Close that chapter in his life and all?

 

I think spirits will look like whatever the person looked like at their best. A glorified version of that person perhaps. Anakin was at his best , or most pure before his fall , so that's what he looks like as a spirirt.