ST The ST: What Would You Change/Revise?

Exactly. This was more my point than AOTC being the way forward (clearly it is not). And to those points I think with the originals we have to remember just how much we’ve smoothed over the gaps over time, as well as how much ancillary material has filled in so many gaps now when in 1983, there were still a huge amount of questions left to explore further. I’d also say we should see how the ST hangs together before we judge it as a whole.

 

Hard to describe an arc when you’ve only seen some of it.
But my whole point was that yes, the ST is being made in a disjointed way. And I’m not entirely sure that that’s the best way, but the point is that it is the way Star Wars has always been made. You’ve just gone back round in a circle.

 

The problem with any sequel trilogy is the Skywalkers. Luke and Leia are too powerful with the force, in terms of popularity and politically not to be the overwhelming favourites against any threat. For the story to make any sense you would need a greater threat than the Emperor to suddenly come out of nowhere, but that leaves the question of why didn't this threat do anything earlier. It also devalues the pinnacle moment of the story: the end of the Sith and the empire in ROTJ.

The two options are you downscale and remove Luke/Leia. You make the story about a Jedi student of Luke dealing with some sort of problem in the outer rim. Han/Luke/Leia can make appearances, but the story is not about them. It's not a major galactic event. The problem is that this wouldn't really fit as part of the Episode I-VI saga.

The other option is to set in further in the future. Have Luke and Leia be very, very old and close to their deaths. I've written it before, but I would have Luke be close to death training his last pupil a girl called Rey. Ben Solo is the grandson of Han/Leia. He has been caught in a growth in nostalgia for the Empire and certain people believe a Skywalker should rule the galaxy. He with the military try to take over the galaxy. Luke/Leia do something amazing saving lots of people and die. The fate of the galaxy is left in the hands of Rey. This keeps all the themes they clearly want to portray, but doesn't destroy old characters.

 

The point is, someone was overseeing it, even if every little thing wasn't planned out (stories evolve, from scripts to the set to the editing room). The important thing being it was Lucas' vision and story overall, he was in charge of it... not different screenwriters handing the baton to each other, taking totally different directions whenever they please.

 

Rian had a completely empty slate which is a problem.

 

This could have been solved by simply referencing something from the past films.

I’m glad and sad to see people finally realise this. Sad because I love Star Wars so much and whilst I enjoy the action/visual spectacle of the new films, what makes the main Saga films is they are meant to be a saga about the Skywalker family and have a beautiful story (and story arc) tying together.


If there were ever going to be more Star Wars films, continuing the saga, then what we SHOULD be seeing is the story that Lucas gave them, written already. The ONLY person’s take on what happens after Return of the Jedi, is George Lucas’ take. That is what we should be seeing.


Star Wars was his creation. HIS story and his VISION. The new writers should “pay for their LACK of vision!!” There would be no Star Wars without Lucas, no major plot, no story arcs (for the OT and PT) without him. He created this galaxy. Whether he directed individual films or not, he created a masterpiece of a story, characters who shone (both through their failures and growth) via a cohesive well told story, and visual wonders.


He may have had his flaws, as we all do. Even our beloved Yoda, the Jedi Council, His Imperial Majesty Emperor Palpatine etc were not perfect. For instance, had he focused as much on dialogue as he had in the Originals, the PT would have gone from very decent to great. But PT, or OT, the 6 films formed a complete, COHESIVE, saga about the Skywalkers and exposition of galactic events. The fall, and return of the Light. The rise and fall of a great Empire etc.


His entire two trilogies might have had their flaws, but they FLOWED as one. They were ONE WITH THE FORCE. There were few inconsistencies in the context of rules of the Star Wars universe. No major major plot holes. It was ONE epic STORY that made sense. With mystery and wonder, but ANSWERS. Growth. Fulfilment. This was HIS story and he knew what was to happen overall. He didn’t “make it up as he went along”. WHOLLY ORIGINAL. There was no, let’s decide on the story later as we move along taking up precious Episode slots. I enjoy all 6 movies. The OT was a magnificent spectacle. The story epic. The PT too a thriller and great background. World building, epic space opera throughout. Granted to some, maybe some PT executions could be fine tuned, BUT the story was there.


It is a missed opportunity that the ST does not appear to have used Lucas’ treatments or executed HIS vision. That is the true Star Wars, the true events that followed ROTJ and the 6 film saga. The main characters are meant to be the Skywalkers. To be fair, Rogue One’s director seemed to “get it” as to telling a story and feeling like Star Wars. But sadly it would appear that JJ and RJ, opted for just branding a film with the Star Wars logo. Making a cake without knowing what to bake or how it fits into the whole set piece meal.


I believe the terms of “retro” and “well made” are apt. That they are. But they don’t feel like Star Wars and I feel sad for Mark Hamil and that the story seems to have been considered as an inconvenience rather than the main aim of the game. “Have you ever heard of the Tragedy of Darth Plaguis the Wise?”


George Lucas always brought us something new, told us the story, gave us relatable characters, PROGRESSED the story and gave us an idea of GALACTIC events/exposition on the state of the galaxy. I am sure his story would have been consistent, interesting, wondrous and epic as always. Even with the same cast.


I feel that we are two thirds of the way through when a story should have been set in Episode VII itself. Flashbacks. Exposition. A more believable storyline. In a way this seems to be the modus operandi of the new Star Wars. E.g. Battlefront 2’s Iden Versio in the Trailers suggested an Empire of principled peacekeepers fighting off chaos from within as well as a corrupt Rebellion. Even the trailers for Episode VII looked great. But it appears that this whole new franchise is about smokes and mirrors and PROMISING an “end of the rainbow” of ANSWERS to constant mysteries that are set up.


EVERYTHING should be enjoyed, explained and explored ON SCREEN as Star Wars (George Lucas’ Star Wars) was always about. That is the Star Wars we love.


“If the new writers do not give up their powers upon the completion of Episode VIII, then they should be removed from office…



George Lucas would have to take control of Episode IX to ensure a peaceful transition…”



I feel happy that Star Wars is back. Personally liked Rogue One a lot. Enjoyed the two ST episodes, but can’t help feel a little lost and not as happy after viewing as I was with all other 6 saga films. Maybe they can pull off the biggest turn around in history to bring it back. But tying the ST together as a COHESIVE clearly told story on screen, explaining the transition between ROTJ and TFA on screen is now a tough order, given we only have one film left to do it.


Seems like they didn’t have a plan. Mark Hamil, George Lucas know what Star Wars is about. Otherwise, perhaps PALPATINE should have directed, since he always has a plan.


Also:

Rey should be a Skywalker and have progression. Not just be invincible.

Explain what happened to the Empire.

The corruption of the New Republic (thanks to Mothma) and the sidelining of the Jedi and Organa and her allies should be shown.

The reveal to the galaxy of the Skywalker heritage.

Perhaps Heirs to the Empire - the principled peacekeeping faction of the Imperials wants Luke to lead them as Vader’s heir.

Explain who Snoke/Lucas’ original villain is and how they came to be - links to the whole saga (Have you ever heard the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise?)

Show more exposition of galactic affairs

Show the background of the extreme faction (who fought both the Empire from within) that would run and become the “First Order”

The turn of Ben Solo

Reunite the original cast

Flow much better


In summary, be Star Wars by… being Star Wars!



May the Force be with you!

You're the one who said there was an arc in place? I asked you to clarify to us then what it is. Because these films, whilst entertaining, don't feel like a cohesive coherent compatible story with the rest of the saga, whether you view them as "Intra trilogy" or as part of a 9 part series.

You seem to say that the ST is clear in what it is telling and its links with the previous 6 films. Including the happy ROTJ ending??

 

OK, this is probably going to end in complete disaster, but might be fun, and possibly even bridge a few gaps in terms of discourse (I'm joking, of course it won't).

Is it possible for the lovers and haters of the film to agree on fixes that could be actioned to the film we have, that are practical and wouldn't require a major rewrite, but could shift the emphasis in certain places so that the frustrations some have are lessened, without diminishing what those who love the film find appealing?

If you're thinking - the answer is this film is broken beyond repair, nothing can save it - this thread is not for you. If you've found yourself thinking - I don't have a problem with the overall story or some of the arcs, but certain details really bug me and I swear they could have fixed this - then welcome.

Maybe what what we can do is get submissions for the areas that we feel we can make a difference, and then go through each, one by one - possibly chronologically.

Contenders might be:

The humour.
The Hut.
Snoke
Luke's general attitude.
The FO chase arc.
Canto Bight.

If we approach it like a rewrite on a script - focusing on fixing certain "notes" we might see if there is common ground to be had. Remember though, if all you want to do is rag on RJ and his vision, jog on.

This should be a constructive thread - everyone is welcome if they are willing to contribute on that assumption.

 

I consider myself one of the most ardent TLJ-haters, and a large part of that hatred comes from how close I think the movie came to what I think it should have been (because being so close, it easier for me to imagine what could have been), so I'd absolutely love to participate in this thread. I am absolutely bursting with ideas, but there mostly ideas I've shared elsewhere. Assuming this thread has a niche that won't get locked in favor of one of the others (constructive criticism, how you would write the sequels, etc.), do you mind if I re-iterate some of my suggestions?

 

This reminds me of the threads I started after TFA to rewrite it in a way that would please everyone. We approached it chronologically and got as far as the hut with Lor SAN Tekka.

 

Good luck @Satipo.

 

That far?

 

It took a LOT of compromise

 

I can imagine.

OK. The crawl. Anything there? I know people have suggested that it could have been used to set up the FO a little more. Personally I think that the blame there lies with TFA in that sense. Still, if we're trying to create the minimal complaint version of the film, what can we do?

@Dukeleto69 - you had some ideas on this didn't you?

 

In my humble opinion, the most basic problem with the TLJ story is that it all happens over the course of a few days and only an hour or two after TFA. This kills its world building (I hate that term but at least we all know what it means), and forces many plot points that don't deliver. So step one is adjusting the timeline.

Opening scene: Rey faces Luke with lightsaber in hand. He reacts however he reacts and they begin their story arc. An indeterminate amount of time passes but it could be weeks or months. Then we go to the resistance. The FO is coming for them. They have the battle. Then instead of a slow motion chase, make it a search. The resistance is hiding in a nebula or something. Finn and Rose can take off on some adventure at their own pace. I think this would give the story more space to unfold.

 

Hm, well, I`ll try.

I`d cut the humour in some places. The saber toss in the way it was done - goes. He can toss it angrily or just drop it but not like that. And not with Porg humour right after.

The milking scene goes. too. I just cringed. The fishing can stay.

Some bonding between Luke and Rey occurs. Doesn`t need to be a training montage but they don`t start and end the movie as strangers.

The hut. Well, we don`t see Luke ignite his lightsaber but grab the hilt as if he is about to and his voice-over explains to us what he thought. He is already turning away when Ben awakes. Come on Ben has the force, he can still totally cotton on to what happened. And in his mind it can still build to a point where he thinks Luke had the saber on and raised.

Also, I would like a bit of dialogue that clarifies their relationship previous to that - like "things started out well between us once he got over being sent to me but more and more I saw... " Preferably a little flashback of Ben previous to that night, establishing the darkness in him. One of the "I had seen it during training" moments.

Half the students don`t go with Ben/Kylo. It compounds the failure too much.

Something more magical/mystical about the first Jedi temple. Build up an atmosphere about the place. In the same vein, there is something there that is worth safe-guarding against Snoke. So Luke is still in exile but his reason is something more proactive.

Rey sneaks through the books and looks up various "cool" things she is interested in using to help the rebellion. Maybe even making contact. She comes across something that describes "force projection". Luke catches her and there is a little exposition on how in the books it says that it only ever has been attempted by some masters of yesteryore but never really successfully as a battle stratetic. They all died before they could do anything much with it.

Rey doesn`t win a skirmish against Luke in any way, shape or form. She angrily confronts him and Luke gets too angry right back at her and her look of shock and fear brings HIM back and he tells her about his failure with Kylo/Ben. The true version this time. That makes her even more convinced that this was just a big misunderstanding and "Ben" can come back.

Now the Crait scene has Luke using the force even AS a projection. Nope, that doesn`t mean he kills the entire FO there. He just renders their walkers useless or something like that. With the earlier exposition it is now established that what he is doing is force mastery beyond belief.

Rey has some sort of real set-back. She doesn`t lift around fifty heavy boulders at the end but a good bit less and visibly strains doing so.

That`s my "fixes" for the force plotline at least. If that works, Canto Bight, Schmanto Bight.

 

Hmmm. OK. I think that robs the story of its urgency, but let's see if anyone else chimes in with that as well. We can stick a pin in it for now - maybe we can find a way to keep the urgency but spread out the time.

@Alliyah Skywalker - that's a lot to process (all interesting though!). I can see why this is tricky. Humour in places I agree with you.

For now, why don't we flag the issues/ "problem" areas - then once (if) we can agree on them then we can attack each one at a time, because I can see there will be a lot of back of forth on some, especially in the details.

 

Urgency can be produced so many ways. The OT has plenty of urgency without a frantic pace.

 

Can I throw a spanner in the works by saying that I love the milking scene and think it’s crucial to showing that Luke is putting on a front and not just being an *******?

 

Well, changing the crawl can change the entire movie. For example, if the crawl gives a little more credit to the Republic - which I think it should, as it is pretty silly to imagine the FO going from losing their key military installation to curbstomp victory -, and has them actively engaged in a running war with the FO, while the Resistance tries to weaken the FO from within, launching guerrilla attacks, that entirely changes the tone of the movie.

I like the milking scene too, conceptually. I got some real 'John the Baptist' vibes off it... until we got the weird longing gazes and Rey feeling awkward. If the movie could treat it as more natural, I think it wouldn't receive anywhere near the hate it got.

 

I was thinking that! This is going to be a tricky needle to thread.

Dominus - re the crawl, I think something that doesn’t change the story. We’re looking at tweaks I think. So the crawl may be somewhere we can address the state of the galaxy issues some have. Fair?

 

He can do something else to show her a front - though I thought he WAS a jerk in this scene, purposely. I just found the scene so gross and weird, I`d cut it.

Though, if the other parts were fixed, I guess I could close my eyes and it would be over soon. I mean, I love Rogue One now and that stupid mind-sucking squid scene is still random and silly to me. But easily ignorable.

 

I think your starting list is pretty solid. I would suggest considering different 'tiers' of changes. That said, the opening and closing battles each have some fundamental problems, but they're relatively minor, when compared to, for example, Luke's character arc.

 

We’re going to need compromise. We can find a way to keep the milking or something like it maybe but in way that doesn’t throw some out of the story maybe.

I think the two most important words in the thread need to be “what if?”


I’d say the saber toss is something we could all agree on fairly quickly, no?

I say take out the irreverence but keep the rejection of the saber. Either he throws it like he does in ROTJ, or he just shoved it back at her and tells her to leave this place.

Thoughts?

ETA - in this thread at least we have to respect the basics. If someone hates something fine. If someone loves something, fine. We can be robust in discussing why, but we have to accept things on good faith and we all have to be prepared to give. It’s literally not going to effect anything so it’s not as if it matters!

 

Change the Bomber Scene. If you want WWII references and shout outs, that's fine. But it should never take people out of the movie and go why are bombers slow and made of paper? Visually, there needs to a reason why the MG-100 StarFortress SF-17 are used instead of the Y-Wings. Otherwise, it comes off as less of Poe's reckless that costing them the fleet and more of bad ship designs that the Resistance invested poorly.

Also, regarding Luke's saber scene, have him just drop it. Now tossing backhand wise. Just drop it and then leave.

 

If you would have made The Last Jedi, you would have made The Last Jedi.