Lit CAD BANE IS DUROS... AND SHEEV'S ALL THAT - The Lit Forum Social Thread, v2.0

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Master_Keralys, Jan 1, 2009.

  1. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Yeah, it's kind of jarring that it's obvious The Eye of the World, or the first three books in general, feel like they were written with the intent that the series might not have sold well, and for the series to stop there. Of course, it was a success, so he was allowed to go on. I remember also thinking the main antagonist of the series had been killed in the first book, and being both confused and annoyed. It's a slight spoiler to say that he's not the series Big Bad, but it's a nice one to know. In fact, the series could quite easily end with book three. You could argue that the series plot proper begins with book four, with the first three being an extended introduction. Which is pretty wacky construction, but it's not quite as annoying as it sounds.

    One thing I like about the series is it at times feels like a game of Arkham Horror, if you've ever heard of that board game. I've never played it myself, but from what I understand, the whole premise is that an Elder God is breaking loose, and the object of the game is to keep him sealed, or if he breaks loose, fight and hope to god you win. Essentially, the entire series is preparing for his eventual release. It actually reminded me a lot of the "War Asset" system in Mass Effect (except all assets you acquire actually turn out to be relevant in the finale in this :p)

    Though I do like the series, I can't shake the feeling that, with a better sense of pacing, it could have been fantastic. I don't think even the most ardent critics of the series would deny that there are some very cool ideas contained within. For what it's worth, my favorite thing in the series is watching the main character steadily go mad as the books progress; that begins in book three. That, at least, was done very well.
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  2. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    Here you go, brother:

    [IMG][IMG]
  3. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    The first tree looks like one I made during my first watch of the First Season. Second would have been very useful back then, now I know all that. Still, saving for quick use during Second Season.

    I'm on page 342 now, and 241 named characters. After the tourney it has been much quieter. But looking at the list of all the lords and sers I realize now how this series is really about a handful of people in power who are all so full of pride and honor and mother's love that they just keep on provoking each other until there's a civil war and tens of thousands of dead. My vote for king is on Renly, who has at least a sense of humour and idealism of ruling with love and without much bloodshed. Wonder when he'll order his first execution.
    Last edited by Lugija, Jan 18, 2013
  4. krtmd Force Ghost

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    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    So, if I'm reading you correctly, you've only read book one and seen S1?
  5. Lugija Force Ghost

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    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    Yep, the second season begins here in three weeks. I have chosen to read each book after seeing a season made of it. That way I get time to analyze and speculate stuff between books instead of just reading the first five books and then waiting ten years for the next one.
  6. krtmd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Interesting approach. I'll be curious to see what you think of A Clash of Kings after you see S2. I hope it's not too spoiler-ish to say the TV show has taken some liberties with the books after S1.
  7. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I wish! It's unlikely but I thank you for the kind words all the same.
  8. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    Never forget your roots, Jello! Send cards!

    I'm not that opposed to changes in story, especially as they have GRRM poking them with a stick if they go too far, like kill off someone who's going to be a major player in upcoming books. He talked about a butterfly effect in commentaries, change a little thing and you may have to change a lot later.
    I never care much about the main characters in fiction (they are obviously going to have A Hero's Journey and do Something Important to Keep The Plot Moving), and so I hope that following secondary characters survive: Tyrion, Bronn, Baelish, Varys, Renly and this one is unlikely but I have to say Tywin Lannister, because Charles Dance. If at least half of those are still alive in the end of season I win.
  9. krtmd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Oh, I'm not opposed to changes in story as much as I am to changes that affect characterization. Does that make sense? I've had some issues with how some of the characters are presented in GOT, particularly some of the female characters that I'm particularly interested in from the novels, like Sansa, Catelyn, and Cersei. Robbing them to prop up the men is not something that sits well with me.
  10. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    I didn't even think about characterization changes, but I don't like them either. Like in The Hobbit, the story could have many differences as long as the characters are true to the book.
    Not having seen the second season I can't comment on your examples, but the added scene between Cersei and Robert in the first season is one of its highlights, so it's sad if Cercei doesn't get many more moments to shine.
  11. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    It is worth noting that certain things are shuffled around; one of the writers of the show said that he views A Game of Thrones as an "adaptation of the series", rather than each season being a strict adaptation of one book. To give an example without spoiling anything, most of the Arya scenes near the end of season one actually happen in A Clash of Kings.

    It could be an interesting overlapping experience for you, though, observing how the show and books differ.

    What's interesting about the show in regards to Cersei is that they're making her much more sympathetic. It's pretty much impossible to like her in the books (though she's many, many steps above Joffrey in that regard). Will be interesting how that all turns out, assuming the show is allowed to hit the finish line.

    I'm okay with various changes, too. I'll never understand the people who wants straight adaptations; that, to me, is boring. When a work is being adapted, an effort should be made to best suit that work to its medium. For example, if they ever get around to adapting Stephen King's Dark Tower series, I fully expect and want them to do some major structuring changes. Some of the ideas in the later books are interesting in novel form, but would be detrimental for film. While many fans are dreading the idea of significant parts being cut down, I think the last three Dark Tower novels would make a killer film, assuming it's structured right.

    I know some are upset about The Hobbit being so different from the book, but again, I'm enjoying the fact that they're having fun exploring parts of the universe that weren't touched in the book.


    I'm still annoyed that they didn't have Catelyn tell Jon that "it should have been him". As horrible as that is to say, it's also very important.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Jan 18, 2013
  12. krtmd Force Ghost

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    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    And it still looks like A Storm of Swords will be broken into two seasons, although I don't know about this for sure. I avoid spoilers for this show, which is kind of ironic, since I've read all the books already.
  13. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Please. Even if I did become some big mover 'n' shaker, I'm sure I'd still post here to argue about politics and history in the GFFA :p
  14. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Yep, it will be two seasons. Also, I've heard before that, should GRRM die before he finishes the series, the show will be allowed to finish the story for him, and he has told the showrunners the broad strokes of how the series ends.

    As for changes, I'm all for the adaptation making some changes if they add to the story, don't wreck it, or enhance the characters. Arya's scenes in season 2 undergo some big alterations from the book, but they are also some of the most show-stealing scenes in the series. On the other hand, I disagree with the changes to Robb's story, as I feel that they negatively affect his characterization. Show Jon suffers from the audience not being privy to his internal monologues, which help to explain a lot of his decisions and make him come off as being less mopey. And as for show Theon... well, personally I think that Alfie Allen got robbed by the Emmies. He deserved at least a nomination for best supporting actor for his portrayal of Theon in season 2. With just a few facial expressions he is able to convey the agonizing depth of Theon's internal conflicts.
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  15. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Show Theon almost makes him seem like a human being. Almost.
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  16. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Has anything been said on how they'll handled the child cast? I believe the actress who plays Arya is already 15, for instance. By the time A Dream of Spring, I could see Bran being old enough to grow a beard. There's always recasting... but bleh.
  17. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Eh, they aged up the cast a bit from the books anyways, which could allow for a bit of wiggle-room with the aging. And the books take place over the course of three years so far, which allows for some further wiggle room. Dany went from 14 to 17, for example.
  18. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Didn't realize the series took place over the course of three years, though that does make sense and puts things into perspective a bit. I originally thought it was something like a year.

    For what it's worth, I really like the TV show ages. I believe GRRM has said that if he could do it over he'd make all the characters a bit older.

    As for the actors aging, truth be told, the only one that I think might cause some problems is Bran. They do a good job of making Arya look tiny on the show. Rickon will almost certainly have to be recast, but honestly, who cares about Rickon?
    Last edited by instantdeath, Jan 18, 2013
  19. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Littlefinger jokes about how GRRM wanted to set the second half of the series 5 years later. Though I'm glad that GRRM admitted that the ages were a bit of a mistake- Arya in particular is affected by the age issues.
  20. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yeah, Williams was already 15 during last season's filming iirc. It's a bit troublesome, esp. with the whole "she's a girl you idiot" whereas anybody with eyes would be thinking "no ****, Sherlock!" But I don't think it's problematic for her though, and I don't think they need to recast her -- nor should they, as she's fantastic and actually makes a thoroughly unlikable character pretty interesting.

    Similarly, Hempstead-Wright actually gives Bran a personality. He's the one I'm really worried about because he has the whole voice deepening issue to worry about. I really hope they find some way to keep him on as the show, because for the first time ever I found myself rooting for Bran on the basis of Hempstead-Wright's performance. Moreover, he's an absolute riot on the commentary track . . . seriously, watch an episode with the commentary on and just listen to him. He steals the show.

    Turner is probably safest since her character's supposed to be getting older. Any damage done by age was already done in season one, where she seemed to act a bit too much like a child whereas in the books she actually still WAS a child. It's a good think Turner's staying because I think she's absolutely nailed Sansa, despite the really poor writing that they've given her. She's done more with less and communicated a lot through facial cues, which is great since her character's in a position where being too articulate will get her into trouble. Sadly, unless you know what's going on in her head (thanks to a book PoV) it's harder to appreciate those cues as a pure viewer and so she comes across as spoiled or something outrageous like that.

    The child actors are my favorite casting choices on the show and if they were replaced I'd be extremely sad.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Jan 18, 2013
  21. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Jul 24, 2005
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    Luke cares.
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  22. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    In various shades of brown?
    Last edited by The Loyal Imperial, Jan 18, 2013
  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    IF ASOFAI ever actually finishes as a book series, then I may give it a second chance until then, no.

    I've got enough on my plate waiting for the next Locke Lamora book!
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  24. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I've heard nothing but good things. I'm on the fence of reading it now, or waiting until the third one that is supposedly going to be released this year, and reading the first three as a trilogy.
  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Tried it once before, saw what it was going for but decided it wasn't for me.