PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

I don't think this explanation works. Let's assume that they have local fleets and defence forces.
How big are they? Well let's assume that the republic has 100 000 systems and each system has on average 100 soliders and 2 warships. That would make the total armed forces in the republic 10 million soldiers and 200 000 warships.

But neither Mace nor Dooku makes any mention of these forces in AotC. Mace says that if the seps turn violent, there won't be enough Jedi to protect the republic as they are not soldiers. And Dooku only talks about how the jedi will be overwhelmed by their new army, no mention of local forces.

The Jedi are great fighters sure but against an army or fleet of warships, they would loose. Esp against warship as the Jedi would need warship or fighters of their own to be able to do anything. And if greatly outnumbered, the Jedi will get cut down as AotC showed. So if the republic has fleets of warship and armies, they would be important enough to mention.

Also, Nute is totally suprised that the jedi have ammassed 200 000 soliders and at best a dozen warships at Geonosis. He even calls it a Huge army. That would be a tiny fraction of the total number I mentioned above and shouldn't be much of a suprise. They know that a Jedi was caught spying and probably did send a signal to warn the republic. So even with advance warning the Republic would be unable to muster 200 000 solders and a 10-20 warships? To me it sounds like the republic has no soldiers at all. And the there have been growing tension and unrest within the republic, so these local defence forces would have been put on alert some time ago.

Lastly, the focus on foot soldiers it a bit odd. Today foot soliders don't really win wars and in a war between planets, powerful ships would be a lot more important than foot soldiers. If your ships outgun the others, then better soldiers don't matter as their ships would get blown up before they could land. And the tactics displayed by both clones and droids is very bad and extremely wasteful. The droids could get away with it as they can be replaced quickly. The clones however takes ten years to grow and they can't afford just to throw them at the enemy like that.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Im not sure what we are talking about is the title, the movie what?

 

George Clooney's worst batman moment.

 

Samuel Vimes in the SW novelization, it says the republic consisted of a thousand-thousand worlds. That's a million.

So yeah, the republic, it's big.

 

Thank you for the info, I was just making a guess. But if we assume that my estimates about number of soldiers/warships per system is correct then the Republic has something like 100 million soldiers and 2 million warships. And from all that, 200 000 soldiers and 10-20 ships is a HUGE army?

I suspect that Lucas did not really think through just how huge a galactic war would be, how many soldiers would be required, how many ships etc. A clone army of 1,2 million soldiers would be nowhere near the numbers needed for such a huge war.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

And if the republic is a million worlds, what's a few thousand systems leaving going to hurt? It's small.

 

So now I get the feeling you're just spinning your tires trying to find some traction. Originally your argument was that Mace was trying to tell Palpatine that an attack was imminent, and that at the beginning of the movie the Separatists had to have an army thus why Mace felt the way he does:

I have since shown you that the Separatists in fact did not have an army. Whether Padme or anyone else felt the Seps could turn to the TF is irrelevant, the fact is that at the beginning of the movie the seps did not have an army, so your thoughts that Mace was trying to tell palpatine the "seps WILL attack" was just flat out wrong. Even if you don't believe my interpretation of the Yoda dialogue, you have to at least admit, that at the beggining of the movie there was no threat of an imminent attack.

I told you what I believe is going on, that if the negotiations fail, then the Seps will secede from the Republic, and the Republic will not let them. This will force the seps to fight for their independence from the Republic. There is a real possibility of a war on the horizon, and some in the Republic want to make sure that the Republic has an army in place in the event the negotiations fail. There are others that feel if the Republic creates an army it will only provoke the Seps into creating their own army, thus turning to the Trade Fed and Commerce Guilds etc. Which is exactly what Padme says. Again, the bottom line is that there is no imminent attack, Mace is not 100% sure that the Seps will attack. He is warning Palpatine that if negotiations fail, and a civil war breaks out, there aren't enough Jedi to take care of the problem.

No it's pretty clear. The opening crawl says the army created by the Military Creation Act would go to help the overwhelmed Jedi. Then just a few minutes later you have mace warning Palpatine there aren't enough Jedi (if civil war breaks out). The Jedi have to be in favor of the Military Creation Act, otherwise Mace wouldn't be confirming what the opening crawl states, and that is the Jedi need help!

I already stated that I believe the Seps will resort to war if the negotiations fail. I stated that they would probably resort to fighting to win their independence from the Republic. Once again you seem to be backing off your original position that Mace was all so certain that they will attack, and that the Seps had to have an already established army to make Mace believe this. Here is what I said:

Once again, the groups we see at the bargaining table with DOoku are not separatists yet, not until they agree to sign the treaty which is what we see happening. Before that time, those mega-corps were only in negotiations with Dooku. Which is the whole purpose of the Obi Wan transmission to the Senate/Jedi, it relays the info to the Republic that the Seps now have an army, where as before that point they did not. The logical conclusion is that if there was no army, than those mega corps were not part of the Seps at the beginning of the movie..

Organa says that the debate is not over and the Senate won't approve the use of clones before the Seps attack. This to me means that with the new information, eventually the Senate would vote to create the army, however, it would get stalled in endless debate (think filibusters) and by the time they did approve it, the seps would be knocking on their door. The point of appointing Palpatine is that he would circumvent that debate, and just use his new power to create the army.

There hasn't been any full scale wars that involved the whole of the Republic. Of course there are wars involving individual planets, it's going to happen (hello... Naboo!), but, there is a relative peace where a Republic Army is not needed. The Jedi are more than capable of handling "border" disputes and small wars that breakout between planets plus there is the Senate where negotiations reign supreme (until it started to crumble from within). Each individual planet has it's own security forces to protect themselves.

No one disagreed with him? I tend to think Palpatine wasn't going to take Mace Windu's opinion as fact, thus why he turned to Yoda. Also, no one agreed with mace either!

Yes the Mega-Corps were told in advance, they were negotiating that's what happens when you negotiate. However, they were not Seps until after they agreed to let Dooku use their armies. I don't understand why that is so hard for you to understand. We know they were talking and negotiating because the whole real reason that Dooku tried to kill Padme was to get the Trade Federation to pledge their army to him. However, the Trade Fed had not pledged their army yet, and Gunray said so on Geonosis when he told Dooku he would not sign the treaty until he had Padme's head on his desk. Once again, there was no Sep army at the beginning of the movie, there was no imminent attack. While some feared that the Seps would turn to the Trade Fed etc, it was only a fear based on the Republic provoking the Seps, not because the seps were showing signs of actually attacking the Republic:

PADMÉ
Not if they feel threatened. The separatists don't have an army,
but if they are provoked, they
will move to defend themselves.
I'm sure of that. And with no time
or money to build an army, my
guess is they will turn to the
Commerce Guilds or the Trade
Federation for help.

Which way do you want it? Earlier in your post you're portraying that the seps and mega corps were plotting for a while, now you are saying that they would be able to just turn around and have the mega corps join at the drop of a hat? Even if it were true and they joined at the drop of a hat, it still shows that the Seps had no army at the beginning of the movie, and there was no chance of an imminent attack.

You don't need to see them, you simply aren't following the story as it was presented. No where in AOTC are the Techno-Union, Trade Fed etc called the separatist leaders. You have to go to ROTS which is years after AOTC to find them being called leaders, in which over that time they have been incorporated into the sep movement. With that said, in AOTC, they are not seps, until the war actually breaks!

I never said the normal seps weren't against violence, in fact the crawl tells us that they are in fact causing problems across the galaxy, but they are not a standing army, they are normal people revolting under the influence of Dooku. The Jedi can't keep up. Dooku knows he needs an army to create the war him and Palpatine want, so he entices the mega Corps to join his cause with promises to fulfill their greedy interests. Obi Wan doesn't call them the sep leaders when he reports back to Coruscant, he calls them by their individual names, showing yet again, that those entities were not part of the Sep movement at the beginning of the movie.

The answers are there, you just don't want to see them because I get the feeling you want to have a problem with this aspect of the movie so you are just rejecting reasonable explanations.

 

I agree 100% supreme chancellor. As a 9 year old I was blown away by the opening sequence on Coruscant and I find myself going back to AOTC often for this sequence in particular. The lights and speeders are mesmerizing in the night and I enjoy the rich which in scenes on Kamino and in the Jedi temple. Additionally I love the beautiful, rusty oranges of Geonosis.

 

Yes it is our milky way is tiny compared to this.

 

mikeximus If I am right (I kind of skimmed through your super-long post) you are saying that at the outset of AOTC the seps didn't have an army? This concept doesn't make sense to me as virtually the whole political aspect of the film is about the Republic creating an army to counter the Sep army. Clearly the Republic had been watching Dooku meet with multiple governments who had strong military capability and the sense that when those militaries were unified they would use them against the Republic.

Or am I missing something?

 

That's exactly what I am saying, and if you think that the entire political aspect of the film was about the Republic creating an army to counter the Seps army, then you missed the point of the whole political aspect of the film. You should go back an re-read my last few posts, cause I am not going to re-type them lol...

 

Well in one scene with politicians, Palpatine dicusses the threat of the Seps and going to war. War would be impossible without the presence of an army.
Then in another scene with politicians, Palpatine tricks Jar Jar into nominating him special powers.
Then in the Senate scene he is awarded those powers.

The political aspect of the film certainly isn`t about the Jedi hoarding all the lightsaber crystals!

 

Ugh....

There is no Republic army and there is no Seps army at the beginning of the movie. The Jedi are spread thin because Political idealist Dooku has gotten thousands of systems to threaten to secede from the Republic and the Jedi are going around trying to deal with all the uprisings on different worlds.

Palaptine is negotiating with the Seps in order to find a way to keep those systems in the Republic. Many in the Republic worry that if Palpatines negotiations fail, than there is a possibility of a civil war as the Seps try to secede and the Republic tries to force them to stay. This will force the Seps to turn to violence in order to win their independence from the Republic.

So many in the Republic want to create an army of the Republic, not only to help the Jedi, but, if Palpatines negotiations do fail, they will need to be prepared for the possibile war that they feel is on the horizon.

However, there are some in the Republic that fear the possibility that if the Republic votes to create an army, it will provoke the Seps to turn the mega-corps for their army, which then makes war all that more inevitable. The Seps have to turn to the mega-corps because they don't have an army of their own (at the beginning of the movie). This is Padme's exact stance, and why she is against the Military Creation Act. She wants diplomacy to prevail and avoid a war.

What we see in AOTC when Dooku is meeting with the Mega-Corps is the actual creation of the Seps army. The various mega-corps are pledging their armies to Dooku, because before that, Dooku didn't have an army. Before that moment those Mega-Corps were not part of the Seps, it was only after that scene where they pledge their armies to Dooku that they are now on the side of the Seps, thus giving the Seps their armies.

The politcal aspect of the movie is about secession, and how both armies were created, not how one had an army and the other didn't.

 

There was already a Sep army. They are the droids that attack on Geonosis. The Republic army also already existed, their the clones that attack the droids on Geonosis. At the beginning of the movie, both those armies existed. On another note, I don't think the word secession is used once in the entire film.

 

It's used in the opening crawl (at least - the original script version):

There is unrest in the Galactic Senate. Several hundred solar systems under the leadership of the rebel leader, Count Dooku, have declared their intentions to secede from the Republic.

It's slightly different in the finished movie:

There is unrest in the Galactic Senate. Several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic.

 

Seriously.... trying to split hairs?

The clones existed but no one knew of them (beside the Sith) at the beginning of the movie. They were a non-factor at the beginning of the movie when it came to any decision making in the political arena.

The Droid armies existed only as the armies of individual mega-corps, they only became the Seps army after they agreed to sign said armies over to Dooku. There was no Seps army at the beginning of the movie.

 

So..

Then we agree!

 

Certainly. But never mentioned in the film itself.

 

"I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two!" (Palpatine).

 

The droid army existed but not as an army serving the separatists until Dooku has that little confab Obi-Wan spies on. It is at that point the corporations droids join the separatists side.

This is not hard to figure out.

 

Don't misunderstand me Iron_lord I'm not saying that secession is not a part of the film, I'm saying that the film centers around the formation of armies and the coming war, and less on the politics of secession. We never hear any characters disputing Republic taxing practices or planetary rights, we only hear people discussing and preparing how to get their armies ready for war.

 

Part of your previous posts rely on lines CUT from the movie. Padme's lines about the seps not having an army are not in the finished film. So there is NO onscreen evidence that the seps have NO army or any military capabilities.

What we do know is the seps have already caused problems and conflicts, so much so that the Jedi are having great trouble in keeping the peace. So the senate is debating creating an army to help the Jedi to deal with these problems the seps are causing and in case the negotiations with the seps fail.
That to me suggest that the seps ARE a military threat one some level. Otherwise the republic is making an army so they can keep people in at gunpoint.

To answer some of your other arguments.

Where IN the film is it ever said that the Republic will FORCE the seps to stay? The seps want to leave and it seems they haven't yet done so. So there is negotiations to try and keep them as part of the republic. But if they seps just leave, what legal right would the republic have to FORCE them to stay? TPM made it seem that the republic is made up of sovereign systems that have joined together in a Republic. Kind of like the European Union. Naboo is its own system, it has it's own rulers etc. And it is also a part of the republic. How could republic laws not permit systems to leave?

That people want to prevent the Republic from falling to pieces makes sense, it makes much less sense to keep systems from leaving by force. That is dictatorship. And how could the Jedi ever allow that sort of thing. They are sworn to PROTECT the Republic, which means if the seps ATTACK, then the Jedi will have to deal with them. But would the Jedi be called to attack worlds that want to leave and force them to stay? I think they will have issues with that.

Oh and you haven't? You said "An opinion coming from one of the biggest, if not the biggest, pompous ass of a Jedi we see in the PT (possibly excluding Anakin). " in a very clear attempt to discredit Mace Windu and what he said.

Mace says that IF Palpatine's negotiations fail, THEN there won't be enough Jeid to PROTECT the Republic. The word Protect is key here, that word is most often used as a defense against some form of attack. If the seps simply leave, there wouldn't be an attack on the rest of the republic, which the Jedi have to protect. But instead Mace says that there isn't enough Jedi to Protect the Republic, which instead suggest the seps will be the ones going on offence. Which in turn they suggest they have an army or some form of military capabilities.
With the TF and co, the seps army gets a lot bigger yes, but that alone doesn't mean they didn't have one at the start of the film.

You have shown nothing of the sort as Padme's dialogue isn't IN the finished film so it matters as little as "Darth Tyrannus" or "Sido-Dyas" which also was in earlier versions of the script.
That Padme felt that the seps could call on the TF or Commerce Guild for help is VERY relevant.
It shows that the TF and other corporate entities are NOT on the side of the republic and are instead on the side of the seps. How else could the seps call on them for help? Whether or not the TF and other corporate entities have also stated their intention of wanting to leave at the start is likewise less relevant. Since they are apparently willing to provide military aid to the seps and side against the republic. Their loyalty to the republic is very small or even non-existent.

Mace's dialogue is IN the finished film and suggest that an attack is very possible and neither Yoda nor Palaptine disagree with him. Palpatine seeks a second opinion from Yoda, if war could be averted but Yoda isn't able to say yes or no because his Force vision has failed him. He can't see the future and thus he can't offer an opinion.

What the treaty is about is not made clear, they could all be seps and the treaty is instead to form an unified seps army. That is what Obi-Wan warns about, that the various corporate entities have now banded together and formed a really big army. Which is supported by what the Techo Union guy said, that Dooku will have the FINEST army in the galaxy. For that statement to work, other armies would need to exist.
And as I said above, the seps could still have military capabilities, this just means they now have even more. And it is a very clear sign that they aren't willing to negotiate, they want to enforce their demands at gun point.

And it paints the senators as morons, they KNOW that they will soon get attacked but they still prefer to argue instead of approving the army. And if they all know that Palpatine would approve the army if given these powers and they are fine with that, then they could just approve the army. But instead they circumvent themselves and hand away all their power so that Palpatine could do something they were all in favor of anyway.

As I said in another post, 200 000 soldiers was called a HUGE army and the seps were totally surprised that the republic could gather that many soldiers in a short amount of time. With a million worlds and if every world has a small military, then 200 000 soldiers is nothing.
And we see the Jedi get faced with, what, a couple of thousand battledroids and the like. And they loose badly. Even in a smaller war, if the Jedi are alone against 10 000 soldiers, they will get decimated. And if they are up against warships and they have none of their own, they also loose.
The Jedi would need armies of their own if they are to be able to fight even local wars.

But neither Mace nor Dooku makes any mention of local forces.

Yes, no one disagreed with him or told him that he was wrong so his words stands. Palpatine wanted a second opinion from Yoda, if war could be averted, Yoda tried to see the future but got nothing. So we have Mace's words against Yoda not being able to see anything. And Palpatine didn't question Mace or say, "No they wouldn't attack" or anything. He made the leap to war right away. So I'll take Mace's words as a strong indicator that an attack is in fact possible and even likely.

And what was IN the film is;
PADMÉ
Not if they feel threatened. My
guess is they will turn to the
Commerce Guilds or the Trade
Federation for help.

These two sentences have different meaning. What is in the film suggest that if the republic gets a big army then the seps would ask the TF and co for help. As I said, that doesn't mean they don't have an army, just that faced with a grand republic army, they are now outgunned and then they would call for help.

Take WW1, there you had a number of alliances. Serbia was backed by Russia and if they were attacked, Russia would help them. But that didn't mean that Serbia didn't have an army, they did.
So Serbia was attacked and Russia then declared war on their attacker.

I am following the story as presented, just not your interpretation if it.

Dooku is the leader of the seps, the crawl says that. And what we see of him is him making a big army to use against the republic. Nowhere is it said or implied that he said anything different to these "Regular" seps, whom we never see. So for all we know, they are totally fine with the deal he is making with the TF and co. And Padme knew that the TF and others were already supportive of the seps before this meeting.

No, it doesn't have to show that. What we have been told earlier is that some systems want to leave the republic. That leaves several options, they leave and form a new confederacy or they leave and they all go their separate ways. Both are possible. At the start of the film, nothing is said that these seps would all form some new union, it is only said that they wish to leave. So the Banking Clan could have stated their intent to leave the republic along with the rest. What is happening at the meeting with Dooku is that they plan to join forces, esp military. That is what the treaty could be about, the forming of a confederacy as opposed to simply leaving and striking out on your own. So that Obi-Wan refers to each other by name is totally logical as he needs to describe who he is talking about so that those in the senate knows who they are and have some idea of what they can do.

Any answer that relies on things not in the film doesn't work for me. And no, I wanted to like this film a lot but the problems that I had with the film made it so that I only think it is ok to pretty good. And a lot made the plot feel contrived to me. I could clearly see where the film was going and what needed to happen. It just felt to me that getting there involved a number of contrived or badly explained situations and characters that did thing because the plot required it and not if it made sense for them as characters.
I have read the script, or bits of the various script and I know that a lot of stuff got cut or altered between the various drafts and even between principal photography and pickups. Such as "Darth Tyrannus", "Sido-Dyas", the lost twenty scene etc. And it is a bit of a pity because in some ways, the earlier script made better sense, the characters asked more questions and seemed more bright and not as clueless. But I judge a film on the finished film, not the script. And sadly, all of these issues have begun to drag the film down to me. I liked it quite a lot the first time, but as I re-watched it, more and more problems emerged.

ShaneP

But given what Padme said, that the seps would go to the TF and others for help suggest that the TF and co are on the side of the seps and would support them if the need arises.
So the seps have people with armies that are at the very least friendly to them.


Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Can't defend it.

 

Samuel Vimes I agree with you the film forces characters to be stupid in order for things to work. But, the film has an inner logic that does makes sense, however stupid it might force characters to be. Im not saying I agree with the conclusions. Im just saying the answers are there, stupid as they may be.

 

One area where I think AOTC exceeded my expectations was Coruscant. Day or night it was awesome. I admit I was a bit underwhelmed with the Coruscant cityscape in TPM, specifically the landing platform scene when they first arrived. The nighttime scenes were good but he arrival ones were just underwhelming I thought.

But with AOTC I think Lucas and ILM brought a sense of depth and scale to the cityscapes lacking in the first one.



That's the outside of Dex's diner. The foreground left is a miniature with a matte background. Here you can spot tiny people on the streets, showing the scale of the scene. I really like the Coruscant scenes throughout AOTC. Very well done.