Senate The Middle East Discussion Thread

Isis getting closer and closer to Baghdad. IF taken I don't see how ground troops won't come into play. Doesn't mean it will be us sending the troops, but countries around Iraq are going to have to step in.

Best case is that airstrikes will keep them at bay, if not then hopefully the Shia militias will be enough to fight them off. Perhaps turn Baghdad into a modern day Stalingrad.

In any case, anyone interested in how Genghis Khan was able to conquer terroritory with a small army are getting a front row seat.

 

The first American casualty has occurred because of the operation against ISIS. A US Marine was killed after abandoning an Osprey aircraft which suffered an in-flight malfunction. This is telling because the Marines were engaged in supporting the ground mission, not the air attack, so the casualty is a tragic reminder of the risks involved, even if combat troops are not supposed to be part of the mission.

And a secondary issue is ugh, the Osprey.

 

I certainly do not care for Cameron or most media analysts at all.

I guess I should also clarify. It's not that I think that Aslan is bad, in particular. I just don't see that what he's saying is new, or particularly revealing. Did anyone really need it pointed out to them that Bill Maher's commentary about Muslims is bigoted?

 

In a media culture where bigotry against Muslims is rampant? Yes.

 

If you'd seen the video I linked to you it'd be pretty clear that the CNN anchors need it pointed out.

 

It's the economic version of the democratic peace theory. Nice.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...rged-join-isis-overseas-fbi-article-1.1964946

a kid from Bolingbrook tries to join ISIL.

I'm so happy that Austrian started up its Chicago-Vienna route again. It's really a terrific way to get to Europe. And Wien Schwechat is a convenient gateway to Eastern Europe and beyond.

Their English-language tagline is stupid, "We Fly For Your Smile," but Austrians have never been good at marketing.

 

Business class in Austrian Airlines has like nine different kinds of coffee/espresso. I want to fly them.



... and more!

 

ya their business class is excellent. Again I wish they did a better job with translating their materials, but it's hard to complain much. Also, I feel sorry for the flight attendants and their bright red uniforms. But then, I always feel sorry for flight attendants.

 

I didn't realise IS were nomad steppe horseback archers?

Yes.

Saudi Arabia doesn't just behead criminals, it will often leave the body crucified publicly for a number of days afterwards. Some people might claim that a rule of law and legal process is at least giving a framework in SA, but it's a hardline shari'a legal framework (so, a brutal version of a set of laws made up by an invisible entity) which is... not that dissimilar to IS. And their justification would in fact be after the fact and covering up for their not knowing that Saudi Arabia is in fact barbaric.

Someone was executed in July maybe for sorcery. In Saudi Arabia.

 

close enough

 

You're right. I see it now.

 

No, but some of the tactics of the Mongols are being used by Isis. The use of fear to control the population, and their blitz style assualt across Iraq are in some ways like the tactics used by the Mongols. All with a small Army.

 

Such blitz, many fear.

Totally not used by many combatants in history.

 

Right, so, really IS has nothing in common with the Mongols other than being scary and quick - elements that have not been seen in any army since Temujin started conquering?

Ok.

 

I don't diagree, but Genghis Khans Mongols are what I personally pulled from history as an example. Still, The Mongols would KILL as a tactic to keep the population from rising up against them. Since they were a relatively small army having to hold what they conquered, they'd use fear to make sure no one would rise up against them. It also worked at a tactic to put fear into defenders of cities in their path knowing what could happen to them. Just like Isis is doing. This way you can keep 10 guys holding a villiage and nobody will touch them because of what class? FEAR.

So indeed the Mongols are a prime example of this. Though yes other armies used it to a lesser effect predating them. Still, their way of using fear to control the population and their rapid advance and conquest with a small army are very similar to what the Mongol Army did.

And I do believe it could be said that the blitz style tactics were probably begun by Genghis Army. Mostly because they were the first real Army to use the horse to that great effect.

Can't really say anyone before them, that I know of, used similar tactics. And obviously you can't say Guderian or Patton(Generals in World War 2), because their version existed much later. Thus, I used the Mongol Army as a comparison to what Isis is doing. They aren't doing what exactly Genghis Army did, but there are comparisons. I did not say Isis was the Mongol Army reborn, just that what they are doing has been done before. Seems fair to me.

 

At the same time you could say Isis is pulling from Sun Tzu as well...The main point being that nothing Isis is doing, is any different then anything you can find in military history. Knew modern methods, same ideas. Because of this you can use the old ideas, modernize them, and counter it.


Sun Tzu said, “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”

 

What made the Khanate fearsome was their skill with the bow in horseback. A skilled Mongol archer could fire 12 arrows a minute, timing their shots to be loosed at the exact period all four hooves of their horse are off the ground. Bear in mind this bow had a draw weight of around 70kgs (160lbs). Their proficiency with this bow, which had a range of just over 300m, and their proficiency as light cavalry was what made them shine; what made them conquer so much territory was assimilating enemy units and tech into their ranks. For example: attack the Chinese, absorb Chinese engineers and siege techniques into your ranks and tactics.

IS are not known for their unique bows (or modern day equivalents). They are not born in lands which, like the Steppes, inspire conquest. They are not in the saddle (or modern day equivalents) from a very early age. And they are not assimilating captured units into their ranks to the effect the Great Kahn achieved. If at all.

So, yes, your analogy falls flat.

 

That's because you aren't listening. My only comparisons to the Mongols were Isis rapid movements and their use of fear which has allowed them to conquer much with a small army, much like the Mongols. THAT'S IT. I never compared their actual fighting tactics, use of weapons, or anything else Isis is doing to the Mongols.

GOD @#$^

 

Yes but that's like saying the reason the Nazis conquered so much so early on was because the French were a joke militarily (they were not) or because they had Satanic power (they did not). You can't make a flawed analogy and complain when people say it doesn't work.

Fear was less important than their ability to loose that many arrows a minute on fast, nimble cavalry and to assimilate enemies into their ranks. I'm not sure how else I can explain it.

 

My analogy isn't flawed, becuase all I did was point out that Isis used two similar methods from history to conquer so much terroritory.

and Fear was very much apart of it. Do a little bit more research than what Wiki tells ya.

There's a podcast called Hardcore history for a simple and easy way to get a good history lesson on the Mongols. 5 parts, very good. It will tell you how the Mongols used fear as a weapon. Also I didn'd say they used fear to conquer terroritory I say they used fear to hold their terroritory. However at the same time their methods caused fear in the enemy they were soon to face. Just like the Mongols. Their destruction of cities caused cities they were soon to take to give up altogether without a fight, OUT OF FEAR THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM.

It has been reported that the Iraq Army broke in places for this very reason. took off their uniforms and ran.

 

Since I feel you'll continuie to debate on this, I decided to just put Mongols and Isis into the search button. What it brought up was enough for me to be satisfied.

In other words, just put in "Mongols and Isis," and search the web. Way it looks some others have came to the same conclusions.

 

It's astonishing that all you took out of 5hrs of Dan Carlin on the Khanate was... fear. Not the analogy that he showed Ogedei and all his sons about the single arrow being vulnerable but the bunch being strong, not that Secret History of the Mongols sounds like a bad documentary title, not Subutai chasing Mohammed II for 2 years, not Batu faffing about with not attending the kurultai after Ogedei passes away... fear.



DarthMane, you made a terrible analogy and should drop it. Even lacking any nuance by your own admission, you took a podcast by - a refrain Carlin himself uses often and continues to use in Blueprint for Armageddon IV - fan of history, not a historian and ran with it. Even after your friends were calling out that the referee blew the whistle.

The Pentagon, which has access to a raft of analysts, claims IS is unique and without historical analogue. I would concur with this assessment. Otherwise, you could do what the State Dept did and compare images of Nazis executing prisoners into mass graves with IS doing the same and say "they're like the Nazis in terms of both being brutal".

Analogies are supposed to provide framework and context by comparing like-for-like (or near-like-for-near-like). Hence my push-back on yours.

 

This is the most lively debate of the historical significance of the Tarkin Doctrine I've ever seen.