Saga RO or TFA?

Not sure what movie I like better between the two but both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Music-love both but nod to TFA.
Humor-both are about the same. Very funny.
Characters-Rogue 1 characters are more consistent across the board. Might like some of TFA's characters (Rey, Kylo Ren, etc) more but at least Rogue One doesn't have Captain Phasma.
Planets-Rogue One.
Ships and vehicles-both.
Aliens and creatures-TFA
Battles and action scenes-toss up.

 

TFA had a magic that Rogue One lacked. I had a near religious experience with that film. While I enjoyed Rogue One, and I feel the space battle in the final act was my favorite of the series, it doesn't come close for me. Characters win over spectacle. I just hope we can get a perfect blend of the two going forward.

 

I enjoy TFA as a popcorn movie, but Rogue One just blows it away. It's SO GOOD! Just as good as the original six films.

 

I truly envy your perspective on Krennic. When I saw the first shot of Krennic in the teaser trailer (with his head bowed, looking very pensive and powerful), I thought that was one of the single greatest shots in the franchise, and I immediately fell in love with everything (I presumed that) he exuded.

I obviously didn't get that (and have been complaining about it nonstop to anyone that will listen), but just reading your description of him somehow sets me at ease a bit for my next viewing. And for that, I thank you.

 

TFA was the better experience and movie for me. Rogue One was decent, but I enjoy the characters, story and music of TFA so much more.

 

I watched TFA on Netflix a couple of nights ago.
TFA has more effortlessly relatable characters. Not so much "character development", just that you just would more likely to hug Rey or Finn than Jyn and Cassian.

But I can very much get into both. They just come at you from very different directions. The trouble with saying which is better is that it comes with an implied opinion that I don't like the other one. It's the curse of Star Wars Ranking.

Rogue. If I had to watch one right now, it would be Rogue One.

 

I enjoyed RO more.

I was bored much of the movie, but there were parts I liked toward the end.
TFA was boring and I haven't watched again and don't desire too.

I'd be willing to re-watch RO.


-No Kylo Ren a.k.a Caillou Ren
-No Mary Sue. ( I think Jyn's character is better than Rey.)
-Character deaths were emotional. Felt like crying when death star was fired on Scarif.
-Liked some of the soundtrack.
-Not a rehash

other thoughts

-Would have liked more Vader in it.
-Director Krennic was disappointing, would have like a good Imperial character.
-Don't like the rebellion,(didn't like it before RO either) but at least there was some admittance to wrong doing on their part. Cassian murdering the informant in the beginning was cold.

 

TFA may be more derivative than R1, but does a far better job investing in its new characters. The only element in which R1 has the upper hand is a sense of scale and spectacle. Of all the Star Wars films, TFA feels oddly insular.

 

Interesting to see so many shout outs to RO...for me, it's TFA and not very close.

I liked RO a lot (and still rank it ahead of any Lucas PT film), but it has a lot of problems, most notably:

1. Way too many "wink & nods" scenes (I'm personally completely over it and hope VIII and IX don't fall into the same trap)
2. Too long
3. Awkward editing and at times, acting (how can you mis-use Forrest Whitaker?)
4. No crawl (I hear the reasons why Edwards opted to not use it, doesn't matter, big mistake)
5. The score doesn't always work

Having said all this, the final act of RO is one of my favorite from any of the (current) 8 films.

 

The Force Awakens for me. I really liked Rogue One, and I can't wait to own it (I only got to see it once over winter break, shame on me), but I loved The Force Awakens. I know I've written it on this board more than once, but the words I frequently use to describe it are "Pure joy in a movie." I love the characters and their relationships, the tone, the action set pieces, the humor, the heart, the music, etc. All the big emotional moments land spectacularly for me, and it was more or less everything I wanted (and then some) from a movie I had waited for ever since the end credits rolled on my first viewing of Return of the Jedi when I was a little kid. Did it have problems? Yeah, of course; some of the fan-service easter eggs bugged me (the training probe, the holochess table, Han saying "Trash compactor?" while stepping towards the camera and taking a big 'ol bite out of the scenery) and the Starkiller Base could have been literally anything else, which would have avoided endless "Are A New Hope and The Force Awakens the same movie?" hot take thinkpieces. But these are, all-in-all, small and easily overlooked quibbles with a film that I otherwise remain as enamored with now as I was on opening night.

Don't get me wrong, like I said I really liked Rogue One, but it didn't quite stick the landing for me as well as The Force Awakens did. I loved the cinematography, and the space battle at the end is a series highlight (the Battle of Endor still reigns supreme for space action, however). I loved the heroes, but not as much as Rey, Finn, or Poe. I loved Krennic, but not as much as Kylo Ren. I love Vader's moment of brutality at the end, and it's a credit to the film that I felt relieved when the surviving Rebel yelled "Laaauuuunch!" I genuinely feared for his and the others' safety despite knowing that they had to get away with the plans, at least for the time being. I loved the plight of the Rebels throughout the film, the shades of grey that were added to the Alliance both through Saw Gerrera's Partisan extremists and through the actions of men like Cassian Andor. I just loved the character conflicts in The Force Awakens more; Rey's desire to leave held back by an enduring hope that she wasn't truly abandoned, Finn leaving the only life he's ever known and trying to find some sense of individuality, Kylo Ren coping with the Light and the Dark battling within him, Han having to return to a wife he left and a son he lost. I loved the sense of hopelessness giving way to a hope hard-earned through sacrifice. I just loved the tone of The Force Awakens more; a buoyant and joyful exterior hiding a melancholy interior. And then there's the ending: where Rogue One's final scene gives me a new appreciation for A New Hope, a journey I've already been on countless times, The Force Awakens' leaves me excited for the journeys still to come.

 

RO, by a wide margin

In my all my years as a SW fan I have never cared for the post ROTJ Skywalker story. I'm with Lucas on this one - as far as I'm concerned, after ROTJ the Skywalkers are throwing barbeque parties and enjoying boring life. Episodes 1 to 6 have a complete, well-rounded story that, I feel, TFA takes away from by undermining the sacrifices made by the main characters in OT and PT, given that the peace they fought for didn't even last one generation. I recognize that TFA is a good movie, and it introduces some great characters, and it is probably realistic in that it shows that any victory is followed by ruin, which, I am sure, by the end of the new trilogy will be followed by victory again. It's just not what I want to see in a Skywalker story. Make it about anyone else and I'm in - RO has managed to go beautifully without any Skywalker on the screen for about 95% of its runtime, so it is doable.

RO has some annoying editing decisions - at one point it felt like it changed location three times within like one minute. I didn't like the use of fully CGI humans (the CGI will age and make the movie look aged too), although I understand that they had no alternatives. I like the OST more, the Hope Suite is one of my all time favorite SW tracks. (On a side note, I keep hearing Danny Elfman's Making Christmas in Kennic's bit in Master Switch, which weirds me out) And I love that it expands the pre-ROTJ universe and adds new flavor to the oldest and imo the simplest chapter, ANH. If Disney keeps its word to stick to one-shot Star Wars stories like RO after the new trilogy is complete, I'm going to be so happy.

 

I actually love both movies. If I had to make a list Rogue One and The Force Awakens would both be in the top two spots. Both movies have great characters I could easily see Ray, Fin, and Poe being just as memorable as Luke, Leia, and Han down the line. And Jyn and the rest of the Rogue One crew was great too. I have only saw them both once but I'm just going to give Rogue One the slight edge because it was the movie that really got me into Star Wars. I mean I have always loved the movies but it was because of Rogue One that I joined this forum, started to re-watch the past movies and started to watch The Clone Wars for the first time. But for the most part I think both The Force Awakens and Rogue One are awesome movies and think they are great additions to the Star Wars series.

 

Now that I have finally seen R1, I have to say between the two....TFA takes the cake.

I might be alone in feeling this way, but R1 was just....boring for me. I liked the story line for the most part, but it felt poorly executed. This was the first time I had left the theater after a SW movie not being particularly hyped and I was so unattached and unimpressed with the new characters that I didn't even remember some of their names. The novelty of seeing a CGI Tarkin and Young Leia were the only parts that actually stood out to me to make this a somewhat special SW movie.

I don't think we needed the story of how the DS was discovered, or how the plans were transferred to Leia on the Tantive IV. Now all the Bothan spy's died in vain, as they weren't even present on the planet fighting for the blueprints.

I was originally against the ST when it was first being planned as I am somewhat of a SW purist and religiously read ever EU novel I could get my hands on for over ten years of my life. However, TFA did sweep me off my feet (even though sometimes I do feel like it's just a reboot of ANH) and the new characters were all magnetic and intriguing. The comedic timing was also handled better in TFA, where I felt in R1 it just felt so forced and fell flat every time.

The ending scene in both movies were great, probably the only aspect R1 wins out on IMO, as Vader got to showcase some of his true power.

 

Bothans weren't even present because they stole the info about Palp's visit to DS2 years afterward, not the original DS plans. You're confusing ANH and RotJ.

 

TFA appeals to me more, but RO is a better film imo. I struggle watching a lot of TFA because of all the repeated stuff from ANH.

 

R1 by a mile.

 

Rogue One is far and away better than TFA in my opinion. It adds so much to the canon from rich characters to new, original locations (as opposed to generic desert, generic forest, super weapon villain base) and is overall a more emotionally satisfying film.

Additionally, Rogue One feels very new and fresh. It doesn't rely on old characters, old story beats, or nostalgia. It's a welcome addition to the overall saga.

 

SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO'VE NOT YET SEEN "ROGUE ONE"...

Having seen R1 for the first time a few days ago, I can honestly say -- as of this writing, at least -- that I find TFA superior to it on almost every level: Music, cinematography, casting, characters, story, wit, charm, vintage Star Wars spunk, focus, construction, emotional texture, and psychological impact. I'll give R1 world-building, and maybe a few other nods here and there, but I also found the film cliche-ridden, cluttered, loud, dour, and relatively superficial in its approach to the material.

One immutable difference between TFA and R1, in my opinion, is their attitude to the human face and body. Whereas R1 gives us synthetic simulacra for the "old" Peter Cushing and the "young" Carrie Fisher, as well as lifting X-wing pilot footage from the trench battle and applying to it a weird digital gloss, directly porting/pasting earlier actors' performances into a much noisier and farouche battle (where their serious, locked-down expressions arguably feel out-of-place), TFA, for all its casual recycling, isn't that cheap, but actually brings in new rebel/resistance pilots, including the Carey Grant-ish Oscar Isaac, setting the big battle over changing lighting conditions (at least slightly innovative/new), and the older OT cast members are all beautifully made up and lensed into TFA's glossy granular fantasy world.

A key aesthetic difference, in my view, concerns the way both films end. R1 concludes in a rather rushed manner, on the plastic visage of an artificially-recreated/youthful Leia, in the soundstage setting of a famous rebel cruiser, with spoken dialogue that leads directly into the original Lucas film. TFA, on the other hand, wraps up with wordless dignity in a real-world outdoor location of near-impossible rugged beauty, accentuated by, and in turn accentuating, the aged contours of Luke's world-weary face, as a young and anxious Daisy Ridley holds his father's Jedi weapon aloft, her own face almost as sad and fragile and full of regret and longing as Luke's: ironically, the older, wiser, loftier person she is beseeching in that very moment. This is a beautiful and mesmeric end to the Abrams movie; more than fitting of the Star Wars legacy. R1's unsubtle digital conceits, in my opinion, just lead to a feeling of cheapness: an hermetic mythology where every "i" is dotted, every "t" crossed. For all of TFA's limitations, I feel there is a relatively open poetic sensibility to it; and a certain restraint is ultimately helpful at bringing this out.

Another thing I don't quite get is the championing of R1, or its final act, as something "bold" or "risky". I see little boldness or risk in bringing a modern-day action movie to an apocalyptic or quasi-apocalyptic close. Without a developed story stocked with developed characters, it's merely a hollow conceit and a tidy way to remove clutter, and, in a sense, divest the movie of real complication. Everyone dies -- great. Again, I found/find TFA much more satisfying here. The surprisingly tragic nature of TFA's storyline is condensed down, in essence, to a lone confrontation on a long bridge between a father and son. And while Han's death is, in many ways, entirely predictable, the exact manner of his death lends the film a wonderful sense of sadness and waste which I think they tried to put across in R1, but, for this viewer, one viewing in, they failed at. It's a crushing end to Han's character arc; and, for me, that's exactly right. Exactly the jolt the series needed. It is full of wonderful symbolism, too: Star Wars essentially saying goodbye to its earlier "pirate" self (for better and worse) at the hands of an old-new villain, the film's ultimate "dark diamond", and perhaps, along with the character of Rey, Abrams and Kasdan's most important contribution to the Star Wars mythos.

Watching TFA is also more poignant, now, in light of Carrie Fisher's sudden passing. Older people are, in a way, possessed of more soul. They've lived and seen and felt more; or time has at least afforded them the twisted luxury of doing so. The presence of the older OT cast members is therefore, in my mind, vitally important at both inflaming the "retro" tapestry of the film and also challenging, surpassing, and overcoming it; or, at the least, lending the movie a natural authority that I think R1 is found wanting for. The heady mixture of an older "trinity" and a newer one, in my opinion, creates a unique tension that gives TFA added brio and thematic heft. It is, to use Harrison Ford's laconic wording at a press conference, "good" and natural to see the old crew back; and it is especially good and natural to see Ford and Fisher together again. Recently learning that they had a fling during the making of the original movie, and that Carrie still carried a torch for Harrison, only makes it all the sweeter. You can feel their chemistry on-screen beneath and between all the chicanery and madness. I hammered Kathleen Kennedy, J.J. Abrams, and Lawrence Kasdan for boasting they'd striven hard to provide people with an "authentic" and "quintessential" Star Wars experience, but, in a way, they truly did. Sounds funny for me to say it, particularly after all my criticism, but I think I now appreciate TFA more in retrospect. Who knows? Perhaps the same will happen with R1. But for now, I remain a bit distanced from and unmoved by it.

I see -- or at least feel -- that R1 does try hard in a lot of ways. But I still feel there's something rushed and forced (pun intended) and inauthentic about it. It doesn't have TFA's clarity or focus. That said, I kind of enjoyed some of the characters. Seeing the "PT" versions of Mon Mothma and Bail Organa was great; great characters, great actors. They truly lent a touch of class to the proceedings (albeit they barely featured). I also liked, of the "rebel" pack, the older Chinese guys (vaguely reminiscent of Artoo and Threepio and the bickering peasants in "The Hidden Fortress" they are based on), Forest Whitaker's extremist rebel warrior character, Galen Erso and Orson Krennic as "old friends" (and "orson"/"awesome" name, actor, and appearance), and K-2SO's bond (limited as it was) with Jyn Erso. Unfortunately, none of these characters, in my opinion, was particularly well-developed. R1 seems -- again, on one full viewing -- to skim a lot, never really having an appropriate sense of proportion and spacing. I also thought, sorry to say, that Felicity Jones was something of a letdown in the main role. This would be the first time a lead actor, or an actor playing a quasi-Skywalker figure, has disappointed me. I never had a problem with Jake Lloyd or Hayden Christensen, let alone Mark Hamill. I really like Daisy Ridley and her performance, too; a truly great find and terrific young acting talent. Felicity Jones, however, just isn't a natural fit with Star Wars, in my opinion, and I don't think her character was really nailed down. Maybe I'll soften on her with a couple more viewings. The same could also be said for Vader's return. James Earl Jones just did't sound right here, in my opinion. The Vader costume also had a weird look to it. I didn't quite believe in what I was seeing or hearing. And while the character's Mustafarian "castle" was somewhat eye-grabbing and thematically provocative, I'm reserved on the melodramatic, Stygian aspect of Vader as somewhat stiffly depicted in R1. It felt like the perfect conclusion to Lucas' grandiose prequel narrative -- but here? I do appreciate how R1 brings back earlier ideas (obviously the Vader castle thing stretches back to TESB), and how it attempts to be a neat piece of connective tissue between the prequels and originals, but there's something sort of artificial about it all; almost as if it is trying to replaster the Star Wars mythos rather than reframe it.

One aspect of R1 everyone seems to have gone nuts over is Vader slaughtering those pilots at the end. I'll admit I found the sequence exhilarating; and, in many ways, I think it's the high-point of the movie. Yet I find that an odd thing to say, an odd confession to make. There is, in my opinion, a sort of hollow, undisciplined malevolence to it: an aesthetic opportunism that brutalizes the Vader legend and strips the character of his dignity. I see people asserting the opposite: that after his blundering "Nooo!" in ROTS, this gave Vader some of his power and pride back. Well, it all depends on how you look at it. While it certainly shows Vader as a "force" not to be trifled with, it's sort of crass in how it runs roughshod over his "samurai" code; which he otherwise maintains in the face of even greater brutality by the Empire itself (at least in the OT). What I mean is, if you notice Vader's conduct in the OT, he only does direct murder or near-murder, outside of duelling, to people in positions of high rank. And they normally have a limited window in which to prove their worth by not screwing up (Ozzel, Needa), not insulting him (Motti), or not telling a pack of lies (Captain Antilles). However, in R1, a bunch of hapless rebel officers are trapped in a corridor and slaughtered en masse. It's something of a queasy sequence given Vader's failure, as Anakin, in AOTC against the Tusken Raiders. Despite and because of the gravity of his crime, he reprimands himself and tells Padme at the end of his confession, "I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this." And even in ROTS, while going on two further killing sprees, he is only briefly depicted attacking unarmed foes (and, once more, high-ranking people who, in Anakin's mind, brought much pain and waste to the galaxy through their unchecked appetite for profit/power). Vader's rampage against the rebel officers is well-directed, but feels "off" to me when I play it back in my head. In terms of the dexterity Vader shows in that moment, it also jars against the more lumbering and reserved way he moves and operates in ANH (and, for that matter, the rest of the OT). When he faces Obi-Wan, for example, he is very cautious in his movements. Filmmaking realities are obviously at work there; but there's a pleasing subtext to their staggered confrontation, too. And not necessarily because Obi-Wan is unpredictable and adept with the Force (a good reason for Vader's caution); it intrinsically feels like Vader hasn't pulled out a lightsaber and gone to work in a while. In fact, I've long looked at ANH as Vader's awakening, initiated by the arrival of the Falcon in the epidermis of the Death Star; slowly rousing Vader from his long, business-as-usual slumber: a piece of junk brought back to life by (the arrival of) a piece of junk. R1, in my view, compromises this delicate (yet awesome) poetry.

Moreover, just to say a little more about Vader's "hack and slash" R1 villainy, he doesn't even seem to agree very much with the existence of the Death Star in ANH, let alone with its cold application against Alderaan (witness how quiet Vader is in that whole scene; and how he holds Leia against his chest, recalling how he allowed Padme to sink in to his solar plexus in ROTS in several of their precious moments together). One could read Vader's later statement to Tarkin -- "This will be a day long remembered..." -- as him looking forward to dispensing righteous justice against the real antagonists: the rebels themselves. As if a direct attack on the rebel base at Yavin, via his use of a tracking device, can assuage his unease with Tarkin turning the Death Star on a civilian planet first and him saying nothing in protest. There is a subtlety to ANH which I am not certain the makers of R1 are particularly sensitive to. All in all, I am not sure a wholesale, comfortable slaughter scene adds as much as it detracts. And what is the outcome of that sequence? Does Vader learn anything? He just seems to stand there with egg on his face. I also can't help thinking that they mostly concocted that sequence as a "people-pleasing" moment; since they must have been aware for the clamour during the prequel era, by some fans, for a "killing Vader" to appear at least once, if not multiple times, wiping out numerous individuals with no mercy. Well, finally, here it is: the very thing Lucas strove purposefully to avoid. There's a P.T. Barnum (alas, not so much a "PT") quality at work: giving the people what they want (and not really serving the careful tapestry that Lucas laid out so much with whatever it needs; or could have been given). Superficial, lazy, popcorn excess. I never really wanted this "Pepsi Cola" Vader moment; and I don't think Star Wars, live-action, big-screen Star Wars, in an artistic sense, really benefits from it. But maybe I'm just overthinking everything.

Anyway, to wrap this up, it's TFA for me. R1 could have done with a few things that TFA has going for it -- a strand of humour, merriment, mirth, not to mention a dousing of warmth and humanity that real actors, not ghoulish recreations on a computer, can actually bring. TFA may itself have been rushed to the screen, and it may have gone the easy road in many respects, going backwards to go forwards, to borrow Abrams' pithy "explanation", but what's there is still, in my opinion, both a competent and a compelling entertainment. R1 does plenty okay in the spectacle department, but either had its wings clipped during a reshoot phase mandated by Disney or perhaps had slightly the wrong or under-powered mentality in the first place. In a dose of irony, the R1 score itself sounds very "Abrams Trek"-ish (and is, of course, the same composer), while Abrams' film benefits from a John Williams score. There's a beatification, or beautification, that only a John Williams score can bring. This, too, I think, expresses some measure of the distance between the two movies. But, for me, I think a lot of it comes down to the way both films climax and resolve themselves. I feel that TFA is handsomely constructed, but does spend a good deal of time spinning its wheels. Nevertheless, it eventually gets out of the mud and does something worthy; finally bringing a cosmic sense of reckoning (while still having these moments feel intimate) between Han and Kylo, Rey and Kylo, and Rey and Luke. The last part, basically, is delicious in many of the right ways. I've thrown plenty of shade on TFA and the way it was marketed, but the Abrams feature is simply, in the final analysis, a more engaging, more lyrical, more appropriately-shaped film. At least, that is my opinion, and for the present time. TFA has turned into a bit of a grower for me. I just put the last part on again and found myself inclined to a more charitable disposition toward the liberties it takes (especially with respect to the "Starkiller Base" infiltration and subsequent air battle). It's rather brusque and simplistic about some things, but it still delivers the gold where it really matters in its final stretch. Can't say I came away from R1 with the same awe or glow. Maybe it's just the "Kylo" within me.

Did I mention that John Boyega is a super cool guy?

 

Cryogenic, have you just seen R1 once? My feelings toward it were similar to yours, until I watched it again. The general consensus seems to be that it gets much more powerful and personal when we go back for a rewatch. If you haven't given it a second chance, I encourage you to try it again.

 

Interesting -- about it improving on a rewatch. I think that is true of all the Star Wars movies, actually, and it might be that I have become a bit estranged from that reality. And yes, I've only seen it all the way through, in good surroundings, the once. I have, however, rewatched a few little bits on YouTube (the official clips and the few "bootleg"/"cam" swatches doing the rounds).

I'll see how I go with it. I'll say that I didn't do enough, above, to emphasize what a handsome job R1 does with the "world" of Star Wars. It is pretty captivating on that level. Makes the Star Wars galaxy feel like a pretty expansive, large, and jam-packed world once more. That's something that shouldn't go uncelebrated.

Also, while some of the nostalgic inserts bothered me (for the "obviousness" of them: e.g., cantina criminals that threaten Luke on Jedha, Artoo and Threepio on Yavin, and a few other things), I'll testify that Gareth Edwards and his crew did a pretty great job recreating the look and feel of the OT world, with some modern licks. A good example is the scene where Krennic orders the Death Star to target Jedha City. The look and feel -- even the sound design -- is, in my opinion, exactly right. The costuming, the set, the size and shape of the screen, the graphics, the analogue "fuzz" and "buzz" -- all excellent. I also like Krennic's instruction, "Prepare single reactor ignition", which is a nice little nod to the briefing scene on Yavin in ANH, where the Death Star is described as having a "reactor system". I also like how impatient he is: "FIRE!!!" Quite a contrast with the sanguine Tarkin. They gave us another "angle" on everything. See, I've been trying to go over it all in my mind, and I think they really met a certain threshold of art/entertainment and appropriate continuity and expansion of George's low-budget introduction to that rebels-v-empire universe in ANH. I appreciate the effort involved.

That said, I can't help feeling that I might revisit R1 and still come away thinking it is a bit of an aesthetic misfire (pun intended?), and maybe not as "beautiful" as it could have been. At this moment, due to the newness of it, I am, of course, a little "taken" with it; but not to the point of ecstasy or delirium. But that was also how I came away from TFA; and that movie, as I said above, has grown on me a bit. It's quite amazing that we have two beautifully-produced Star Wars movies, one "saga", one "spin-off", in twelve months. Incredible, actually. Though I also feel that that's where some of the problem lies: it's a symptom of Disney's desire to crank these out and impose a commercial mandate which is a bit too iron-fisted. I realize it's already turning into a mini-cliche, but I miss George Lucas. However, to rescue that statement from any mawkishness, and to not sound too ungrateful, I work my way through it by imagining this is all part of a grander, Emperor-like scheme. It sounds a bit impolite, even vulgar, to say it outright, but perhaps Lucas is trying to blow up Disney, with Star Wars, "from the inside". Star Wars is his Millennium Falcon and into the Death Star it has flown. Or maybe it became his own Death Star and he wants it to become "stardust". Maybe the man is just getting warmed up.

Anyway, R1... good to hear everyone's thoughts on it. Two more movies after a decade of being "stuck" with six means, I think, that the SW fanbase is widening, and might also be becoming a little bit soothed. There are an increasing array of "Star Wars" flavours to choose from; even though, some way, some how, "it's a trap" and merely all one big ball of wax. That's no ball of wax, it's... no, wait, it is a ball of wax. Really, though, I think I hanker for something a bit more avant-garde; something a bit more prequel-esque (I don't mean nods and references) and not locked so blatantly into a crowd-pleasing mentality. I might be waiting a while. What if this plan fails, George? We could be stuck here a very long time.

 

Rogue One only slightly beats The Force Awakens for me. The plot of Rogue one wasn't executed well, and the actors didn't have much chemistry.
While I do think Rey's arc was somewhat forced, the humor and character interactions were more natural (that droid sidekick in RO.. come on!) than in Rogue One. However, all the faults of rogue one are made up for by the scene of Darth Vader killing those rebels. This is the purist in me talking, but that scene bears everything in TFA. I honestly don't think that the TFA did enough to reference the OT, let alone the PT, and RO did both just right.

 

Shouldn't this have a poll?

For me, it's RO hands down. I left the film actually caring about the protagonists, where after TFA, I was left feeling very hollow. Perhaps I had higher expectations for Ep 7 than a "Stand alone" movie, but TFA just struck me odd. From the thinly veiled "don't worry, this is your dad's Star Wars" agenda to the contractually obligated "death of Han Solo", it just felt...empty.

That's not to take anything away from the actors (John, Daisy & Oscar) who did a fine job. But I just found myself not caring about the characters. It's strange, since even the PT generated more excitement with friends & family between films- and we pretty much knew how the story would play out for the most part. Here, with arguably an entire "universe" of possibilities, I can only muster the barest interest in "Rey's training." (well, that and now due to the tragedy of Carrie's passing- what happens to Leia)

But, with RO, I can honestly say I was engaged with all of the characters. I really looked forward to more time spent with them. It was pretty depressing having to leave them behind. I was actually very wary of this film, with (what I expected to be) a Han "too cool" Solo rip off in Cassian, a "Bad ***" C3PO rip off in K2SO and a Rey "...whatever term we're allowed to use for an OP character that can handle any situation..." rip off in Jyn. But these characters actually felt nuanced. They weren't perfect, cardboard cut outs designed to be "the next..." and I think that made each of them much more accessible. To me, at least.

 

*random reflection*

One thing I'll say for R1:

I can never look at the word "aspiration" the same way again.

 

Rogue One. Mildly, without major enthusiasm, but Rogue One nevertheless.

First, flaws. But first, about these flaws, they are not across the board and I'll try to address them as much:

- Acting.
- Camerawork, the mise-en-scène type.
- Tone.

Rogue One is two-thirds dramatically lethargic, and almost entirely so on the protagonists end of things. Let me see if I can put this into an analogous context that best gets across my perspective. Ignoring the most overt references to the Star Wars universe, watching this movie is like watching yet another Young Adult novel series adapted into live-action; again, particularly in terms of our heroes—the tone and dramatic disposition. Think Insurgent: The Maze Runner Games - Part 2. You look at those series and they're very slickly produced dystopian action movies. They're not cheap and they offer up some flashy pizzazz spectacle, but they're also largely non-characteristic, in part, for being sponged with histrionic platitudes. But then, all the sudden, you throw in classic Star Wars iconography -- stormtroopers, AT-ATs, the Death Star, Vader -- renewed as expensive fan-made artwork or as you might see them form the cutscenes of a Star Wars console game and, voilà, YA subgenre humdrum gives way to "Oh, cool, a new shot of the Death Star and AT-ATs on the beach, yo!"

So you might be asking, then, what exactly compelled me about the movie. Whatever meaning or lyricism that won me over in the long run, from which aspect did it succeed? Oddly and somewhat ironically enough, the plot. Rogue One is a glorified exposition piece that's been, well, glorified ...in a way that I found rather audacious and surprisingly affecting. Where the protagonists' story plateaus as mostly filler, the Death Star plot-line transcends to becoming its own thing, an accessory cinematic gesture that twigs midway just off the six-part Saga. It's like a little Star Wars vignette in a box, where the heroes are just ok-serviceable but where the Death Star and its Imperial players get in some quality (radio) theater time before A New Hope comes along to swing for the other team.

And about those flaws, what I do like is how Gareth Edwards seems to have been conscious in relegating their underlying sensibilities mostly to just one dimension of the film. So the heroes emote plight and mumble their dialogue in a modish 'realism' style, or spillover into mild embarrassment with hokey 'method' antics, like Felicity Jones sobbing over a hologram or Forrest Whitaker's wet-blanket delivery of "Save the Rebellion! Save the dream!" ...along with Forrest Whitaker, period. And so the camera boxes in with bland loosed handheld derivative of both the default indie trend post-2000 and the mainstream movies that have since followed suit for sake of relevance; I'm reminded of the brief flashback where kid-Erso spies her parents carousing Krennic in the living room (back on Coruscant, presumably) and how distinctly blasé said try-harding proved. However, scenes of Krennic opposite Tarkin or Vader are nothing short of puply-majestic, wholly in the spirit of visual compositions that illustrated evil-doings across the PT and OT alike. Here, Edwards pulls back his camera anamorphically for handsome frames, backgrounded with epic vista tapestries and, before us, a slow waltz of looming, threatening figures. Here, the performances rekindle some of that ol' Republic Serial/Hammer Film dignity.

As material, I dig the motives and haughty personalities of the chess pieces in question. I love's Krennic's official title, "Director", and how he fashions himself a man with vision plainly beyond his intermediacy in the grand (moff tarkin) scheme of things, and how such illustrates the Empire as an inter-predatory system among its well-tailored elite as much as it is an outward fascist tyranny over the common people. Yet the very existence of Krennic and his limitations as a clipboard-carrying villain also represent a kind of oversight inherent to the Empire, as even when his failings in security personnel are clear to Tarkin and his advisors, the latter man simply subsumes the former's superweapon achievement all the same, and with smug indifference to whatever potential threat detailed in such failings. The whole thing is simply a pyramid where no one involved is able to see beyond their own proportionate hubris. These moments between Krennic, Tarkin and Vader are the conventional character highlights (more on the unconventional below) and, first, on the issue of Tarkin, I for one welcome with open arms the controversial resurrection of Peter Cushing in digital form.

CGI looks fake because it is fake.

If you haven't heard this before, take heed, for it is a deceptively salient point. Of course CG Tarkin "looks fake" in the most reductive, reactionary sense. Actually, the results are phenomenal from a technical standpoint, but this matters not for anyone of a certain age wallowing in the plain logic that Cushing has long since passed, and therefore innately negative to what they only see as an 'uncanny valley' syndrome. This is the wrong mindset. I've never put much stock in this principle that special/visual effects must always disappear seamlessly into the natural environment on screen. I understand to a degree how animators proceed similarly with the basic work ethic, so as to consistently push for the best quality possible. But as a moviegoer, I've always embraced special effects for being just that: special. That which heightens the tactile reality precisely with the unreal, with a bit of movie magic. I don't care that CG Tarkin is unavoidably NOT real Tarkin as portrayed in-camera back in 1977. It is first-and-foremost Tarkin as a character that I like, to a level that has since been easy to forget, and how he's been re-imagined via the art of illusion—the very essence of cinema. Yep, there he is, back up on the screen some 40-years later. Sacrilegious to alchemize a once living, breathing performance using the devil's digital? What are we, Amish?! Whatever. I think it's weird and great.

The eccentricity Lucas dared when opting for total CG clone troopers -- where real costumes mixed in would've been more traditional, more "proper" -- that's the kind of madcap experimentation that makes Star Wars the FX artwork at its most sincere. Rogue One tapped into to that same inspiration, continuing what Lucas long ago said about using (and, consequently, not shying away from) special effects as a means to tell a story. And I think Tarkin is a necessary character here. While his, Vader and young Leia's appearances have been criticized as cheap fan service, I posit they are not only credible to the storied timeline but moreover, unlike The Force Awakens respectively, warranted, dramatically speaking, given the Death Star as a story focal point. It would be awkward if, amidst all this superweapon preparation, the Grand Moff Tarkin was just somehow absent to the events because, god forbid, including him as a driving character would not only be impractical but *gasp* unkosher. Whatever. I'm glad they instead brought him back, and with considerable up-close screen time to boot, in order to tell this story to its needed dramatic capacity. I even liked how they cheated a bit in exaggerating his height, and how they translated his stark, overhead lighting from A New Hope into darker shadow-casts seen here, emerging chronologically into the saga with spooky corpse-like presence.

And Darth Vader. Okay, sure, James Earl Jones is a tad croaked in the vocal performance. The guy's 85. At the very least, I think it bleeds over well enough to how we first hear him in A New Hope, less with the sonorous baritone of the following sequels than he is comparably flat when barking orders about. I dunno. It just wasn't a big deal for me. But this movie's intro of Vader -- let's just call it the Ralph McQuarrie scene, shall we? -- along with his quick disciplinary treatment of Krennic does well, I think, to accentuate his monastic distance as a Sith Lord from all things Imperial brass along with the utmost prioritization of the Death Star. Vader is the tendril strong-arm of the Emperor. So, he's in the show, answering to Tarkin as a formality, while also skirting the edges, as we first see him here, in bacta form, residing over Mustafar (or something like it) as Hades does the underworld. C'mon, that's dope.

And the pun he lays on Krennic? I love it. In fact, it accentuates yet another aspect of the character. Throughout this stretch of the saga, long after the Greek tragedy of Revenge of the Sith yet before the inner struggles of Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader is, for all intents and purposes, having a good time. Consider how he accompanies magnitudes of menace of with wickedly irreverent understatements such as "I find your lack of faith disturbing," or "Apology accepted, Captain Needa," after murdering a dude! Or the scene in The Empire Strikes Back where he casually deflects Han Solo's blaster fire and responds, "We would be honored if you would join us," before seating himself at the head of a dinner table. I mean, that is totally Vader cracking an evil smile. So, yeah, “Be careful not to choke on your aspirations, Director," was very much in keep.

Rogue One gets a bit more mileage out of its venues than does The Force Awakens, though not without some scattershot pacing that plagues the first act. Edwards and Co. show little interest in matching truly alien landscapes and biodiversity for which an era-limited Lucas labored to realize in the original films and would later, with a full synthesis of digital and model work, uncork with zeal throughout the prequels. But unlike Abrams he doesn't inoculate planetary backdrops to a level of disposability, even if a couple of them pass by too fleetingly early on. Both Erso's homeworld of Lah'mu and the desert moon Jedha, for example, are plainly Earth-feel in appearance but go one step further in using as much to reconnect this far away fantasy galaxy with our own collective cultural history; the first inverting the Tatooine farm life for another kind amidst arctic tundra that evokes an Iclando-Japanese hybrid, where a ronin Galen walking through tall grass is missing only his weathered ōdachi; the second with its table-top Capital City and Gerrera's cave stronghold that pickup where Jabba's Palace left off (minus the Muppet fun, sadly) with touches of medieval Arabian life. The Death Star's trial run on Jedha gives the movie's first half a much needed jolt as Edwards downsizes the instant total annihilation of Alderaan to a finite yet protracted Armageddon experienced at ground level and therein seems to challenge Abrams hyperspacing the Falcon into the Starkiller Base atmosphere by hyperspacing Erso and her crew clear from the debris maelstrom of a planet surface wrought asunder. The following Eadu in some ways recalls Kamino and Coruscant at the opening of Attack of the Clones as a place shrouded in perpetual rain and fog. I am rather fond of this locale, especially after my second viewing sans the murky 3D, affording me a more vivid look at the darkly ambient terrain that reveals a primordial world not dissimilar to, say, LV-426, where only the Empire would arrogantly setup shop. And I like the use of scale and distance that separates our heroes from the research facility platforms. There's a game level quality to it replete with Cassian Andor's first-person shooter POV as he scopes classified targets. Though I mocked as much earlier, it must be said that Rogue One is nothing if not an achievement in live-action LucasArts.

Yet the movie's biggest problem remains anchored to any scene where our heroes have to, you know, talk and stuff. I'd might be more engaged with the arc of Jyn and Cassian's conflicting motives or the Alliance Council mirroring the Galactic Republic in their inability to converge on necessary action if not for aforesaid listless tone. Even the prequels kept one foot squarely in B-matinee presentation (that only reinforced finer nuances) but there's simply no aesthetic here. No quirk. Nothing even worth lampooning in good humor. From Erso's estrangement with Gerrera, the tragic reunion with her father, her call to arms before the Council and on to the eventual 'hoorah' team-up of scrappy Rebel volunteers, Edwards dramatizes from an industry setting. We're left watching a script go through motions. Rote One. Fortunately, the third act climax is where the plot manifests from its properties hardened thematic gestures, if not some measure of dramatic payoff.

The Force Awakens dumped on audiences with less than an hour runtime remaining a bigger-is-better Starkiller only to slipshod its Achilles' heel in a mere glib sentence followed by an equally half-baked endeavor of recycled dogfights, trench runs and infiltrator sabotage, all amounting to little more than aimless commotion. The stakes here, however, are more soundly codependent. Cool enough how planet Scarif doubles as a WWII Theater of the South Pacific but it's the mission circumstances that are both characteristic of the franchise, particularly Return of the Jedi, while still managing its own set piece dynamic that functions as a closed circuit: the Rogue team below must scramble to open a communication line to the Rebel fleet above, so the Rebel fleet above can aid the Rogue team below by dismantling the planetary shield, so the Rogue team below can transmit to the Rebel fleet above the prized superweapon schematics. Lucas always gave us some twist or variant from one space battle to the next, like the duct network of the 2nd Death Star or the runway emergency crash landing of a Separatist flagship. Ever seen X-wings and Y-wings skim off the surface of space glass or the Rebellion literally punch a Star Destroyer in its stupid face with a surprise Hammerhead? You have now.

Still, it's our established characters on the ground who each, finally, attain meaning free from generic dialogue that is instead defined by their physical objectives. To put a finer point on it, consider how this is the one Star Wars movie where endgame victory is predicated not on escape or some grandiose destruction of the enemy, but the uplink of invaluable information. Our Rogue team heroes succeed less as "great warriors" than they do fated satellite TV hijackers or pirates of radio. For Rook, Îmwe and Malbus it's all about power hookups and master switches; for Erso, Andor and K-2SO, analog data retrieval. Every man (or woman and droid) goes down only after having facilitated in some manner the critical relay of the Death Star plans. It is here where I argue that the two true characters of the movie are in fact the Death Star itself and the analog data containing its weakness, both siblings from the same father, if you will, and with the data tape itself personified before sister Erso as "Stardust" and to us the audience as "Hope". It is here that the filmmakers have done something neat, potent. They've crystallized what was before only a plot point of A New Hope -- Death Star, exhaust port, boom! -- into a loftier idea that becomes tangential to said subsequent installment. Think of it this way... in Revenge of the Sith Luke and Leia are born, representing a future hope for the galaxy. That hope continues but takes on a different, more technical form to be "transmitted" from one trilogy to the next, becoming new and human again with our Skywalker twins now older.

That's why I think Vader at the end of the movie resonates beyond fan-pleasing badassery. "Hope" is literally within his grasp and there's a tightrope, by-a-hair sense of momentous destiny as the former makes it through a closing door hatch at the expense of yet more sacrifices. I ask, how could you NOT end with young Leia taking "Hope" into her safety and addressing its very namesake? Yes, her CG being is likewise cognizant in its unreality. And that, too, lends Rogue One at its best something immortal and mythic. I hear you, Cryogenic, about the movie's lack of ceremonial closure, but I think its very aberrant nature demands that it bullets headfirst into A New Hope—hell, maybe 38 minutes real-time from end credits to the opening crawl.

Okay. Summary. The movie starts off meandering, finishes strong. The villains are great. The heroes are, eh, functional; Donnie Yen as Îmwe and Alan Tudyk (along with ILM) as K-2SO making the most colorful impressions. The overall dramatic tone is portioned to generic mainstream with a lesser but still lasting dividend to increasingly classic Star Wars. Giacchino's score is pure bricklaying, virtually transparent, but I guess serviceable enough as a facsimile of jaunty, Williams-lite adventure/suspense music best relegated to the background. Even where and the degree to which the movie drags, I still can't rank it below The Force Awakens. Rogue One is not a great Star Wars entry, but it's not a cynical one either. Sorry. Hate to be damaging like that. It's just, the Apple Product filmmaking Abrams brought to the franchise has by and large left me soured, though, for the record, I am not without nice things to say about Episode VII. This spinoff clunkers quite a bit yet its worst flaws only ever really bored me rather than offended, and I think Edwards preservers through his lamer proclivities and brings the movie into home plate with some degree of rhapsody.

 

GregMcP You have TFA on NETFLIX...Lucky.

Rogue One easily. I left that movie no longer needing anything new Star Wars, i felt that Star Wars journeys was now complete and i could leave the fandom, the saga and the franchise a fulfilled man. (I won't obviously but I'm just saying that's what RO did to me)