ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

He certainly did that. But he also said he stoked to conflict, specifically because it would attract Rey's sympathy.

 

He certainly did that. But he also said he stoked to conflict, specifically because it would attract Rey's sympathy.

 

I thought it was made pretty clear that kylo killed snoke in order to usurp him. A common practice among sith. Yeah i know they don't call themselves that, but they still behave as such.

 

Luke (the rejuvenated Luke) said he could not save Ben. And Leia says she held out hope for so long, and knows her son is gone. If he CAN be saved, it will take something truly profound, IMO.

 

How did he stoke the conflict Kylo was already feeling other than bridging a link so Rey could see the conflict? Surely he did not also manufacture feelings.

I also find it interesting that people assume Snoke is so honest. He is capable of deceit, himself.

 

Like if Rey offers to marry him maybe?

 

Rian Johnson was more interested in subverting expectations (by burning plot threads or ignoring them completely). than just telling a story. That includes reylo. He teased it for a whole movie by making rey inexplicably feel sympathy for kylo ren. Then in the end she literally shuts it down.

 

And this is why I get really quite angry at Reylo shippers, especially after TLJ. I work with abuse victims every day I go to work, and what you say is spot on. This needs to be up on a billboard somewhere.

 

Ditto. Luke and Leia both admitted that he is beyond redemption, which is going to lead up to some sort of an epic showdown in 9. I'm just curious if we'll see the Knights of Ren, as Luke specifically stated that Kylo and "a handful of [Luke's] students" destroyed the temple. I'm assuming those students are the KoR, and could be a formidable dark side order.

 

Kylo is not a Sith and there is no reason to believe he was doing this as a Sith practice. He was freeing himself from Snoke AND usurping him.

His connection to Rey played a part in that. He got the conviction to finally kill Snoke because he thought Rey would stand with him when he did. I think he was already contemplating it though. Snoke also put him in a corner when he told him to kill Rey.

 

I didn't say he was doing it as a sith practice. I said it was a common practice among the sith. They didn't do it as a form of religion, they did it because darkside users tend to want power. Did you not see the way hey planned everything? He'd use rey to shield his true intentions (hmmm where have we seen him shield his true intentions before?) before killing snoke. He even told her in the elevator scene. During the whole torture scene he's just on his knees waiting. The film made it crystal clear that his "conflict" stage is over. Kylo has gone from hugging chairs on the falcon, to "shot that piece of garbage out of the sky!!!!".

 

Kylo can go to hell. He doesn't have a single redeeming feature other than Adam Driver's fantastic performance. There is no way back for him.

 

try to get angry at the idea and not the people. Nothing is gonna make folks stop shipping them. Even when the trilogy is (thankfully) over. Regardless of what happens, people are gonna ship them. I understand your feeling, but the less emotion, the better.

 

I think you have to place your bets here that Kylo Ren finds redemption in some way, shape, or form. It just doesn't make much sense to have this trilogy contain a character from the Skywalker/Solo family fall to the dark side if that isn't the ultimate goal. I don't think it will be as cut and dry as, "Kylo saves Rey and is redeemed" by any means. I am sure that having Carrie Fisher gone likely caused some immense headaches for the writing staff as she is legitimately the best possible path to his redemption after murdering his father. Having her unable to appear in the final chapter is going to make it a challenge for them to make sense of his journey coming full circle. The kid has had a hell of a life up to this point in the story.

The entire movie you have Luke convinced that his nephew is too far gone. I'm still a little confused as to how Luke basically decided "I have to kill this kid" in a kneejerk moment but I guess realistically he had like a crash course training in The Force himself and had very little in the way of sources to learn how to be a Jedi, much less how to set up a Jedi training and make it work. I'm not entirely surprised that at the first sign of a little darkness he assumed the worst. What's interesting is that the focus is on Ben but clearly other followers left with him so things couldn't have been going well at Luke's School for Wannabe Jedi. We can't expect Luke to be a factor in bringing him back, though would it be too much to ask for him to be like "Hey kid look I had a moment of grave weakness but I really wasn't going to kill you after all despite what it looked like" at some point in the next movie that tugs at his heartstrings but ultimately doesn't win him back? Maybe Luke appearing as a force ghost to reveal to Kylo that Leia is tragically gone? Though I could very well see Kylo as absolutely having lost it and being the reason she dies too at this point. He's raging pretty hard.

Do we really think that a Rey/Ren love plot is his way back? Rey was obviously a reluctant participant in all of this throughout the entirety of the first film and it wasn't until her revelation that she could use the force did she start to change her stance on things. You can tell there's some infatuation with the Resistance but she never seems to want to leave Jakku because of her parents etc. I need to see TLJ again to further retain some of her budding connection to Kylo Ren but it seemed that her focus was on mostly just feeling like was conflicted and she knew it and felt like he could turn back. I feel as though he sees her differently than she does him. I still don't think Kylo has any real motivation or sense of purpose I mean obviously he's just killed his mentor (loose term that) and assumed command because well the First Order is all he's got ties to once she refuses to join him. I think he just sees her as someone else lost in everything while she ends up seeing him as lost and she'd found her sense of purpose. I just don't see how having them fall in love makes the most sense without him first seeing the Light.

This ended up being rambling, sorry!

 

There's nothing inexplicable about it. There was only one possible way Rey was ever gonna sympathize with him, and they did it. Force them to stay in a room together, without the possibility of hurting each other, and have them talk it out.

 

All great observations, IMO. But in addition to Luke saying he could not save Ben, Leia notes that despite holding out hope, she now knows her son is gone. And yeah, Rey shut him down hard at the end. If he CAN come back, it will have to be remarkable.

 

Well, Luke also said no one is truly gone. He then told Kylo "see you around kid" which was very reminiscent of Han. I think Kylo has a bit of similarities with Hamlet and I could see him being haunted by Han's ghost and perhaps some literate Force ghosts like Luke, and hopefully Anakin.

 

I am not sure that a discussion about if Rey is Kylo's way back or not is really the question to focus on.

If I can have compassion for Kylo, I know that Rey can and perhaps she even does, but having compassion for Kylo can't save him. Leia loved Kylo and wanted him back for years. Han loved Kylo. Luke probably loved Kylo, though it is less than I expected. Kylo is so damaged he can't receive love and he can't feel it either, IMO. He was drawn to Rey's warmth, to someone who can love, and he wanted her with him so he wouldn't be alone. But the way he wanted it was to have someone with him in the emptiness, the cold, the darkness, craving that little bit of warmth that he can't generate himself. It's a sort of relationship of dependency he was trying to set up because he is so broken that it's the only sort of relationship he can understand. His dreams in this are as impossible as Anakin's at the end of ROTS, but he can't see it.

Rey reminds me of "Right Action" on the 8-fold-path. She isn't "Rey Therapist." She tried to kick Luke into action, but she wasn't going to stick around and talk out his feelings with him. He has to stand on his own, and if he won't, she is going with another plan. She is single-minded in her objective to help the Resistance and nothing is going to sidetrack her from it. Either Luke and Kylo can help, or they can be left behind, because she is not going to stop trying every way she can think of. She doesn't give up and she only tries to further the greater good in all of her actions. If Kylo was amenable to following her way, she would take him. If he isn't, she will leave him. She's pretty straight forward in all of this.

Kylo's path in VIII is into greater darkness. He begins with his pain and conflict and in the end finds greater resolve in the darkness, just like Snoke wanted. If Snoke really is dead, this was his final manipulation. He has completed Kylo's training. Snoke is pleased when he senses Kylo's intentions to destroy, the dark side flowing through him without conflict. Kylo says "I know what I have to do" only this time there is no question of if he has the strength to do it. And Snoke loves that because it is Kylo fully on the dark side. At the end of the movie Kylo is no longer conflicted about sending the FO after his mother. When he fights Luke these purple streaks are coming out around his scar reminding me of when Ahsoka was poisoned to the dark side in TCW Mortis episodes.

And you could say that now that Kylo is free of Snoke (assuming Snoke is dead) that he is freed, but he's not. Snoke has done so much damage through his abuse and manipulations and he got his claws in so early before Ben could properly defend himself (he was still a child), that Snoke is part of Kylo.

The only ways I can see for Ben Solo's redemption at this point are:

- A miracle of the Force - The light side of the Force itself takes him back and heals his broken person, driving out all the poison of the dark side out. This would be the equivalent of redemption via "God." The reason for doing this in the story is because what happened to Ben Solo was a terrible injustice. This psychic presence far stronger than him infiltrated his mind from an early age and began turning him. Both Leia and Luke believe this. Luke believes he failed, but I suspect by the time he got Ben it was either already too late or it took just a little too long for him to see clearly what the problem was. Snoke destroyed Ben Solo and made him a weapon to use against his family, and there is no justice for that child who was lost. OTOH I can see them not going there because the truth of children who are turned to serve wars is that many can't be recovered IRL. It is too late. The time to save them is when they are still children. But Star Wars is something I look to for hope, that there is always hope. And I can't stand this nihilistic closing of the door.

- Ghost Luke - Snoke has been with Kylo in his mind for so long, turning all of his intentions and feelings that the only way I can see to heal him a bit less miraculously is if someone will stay with him and reverse it, help him examine all of his feelings and responses as they arise and show that there is a better decision to make, a different way to feel, something that will lead to him feeling better bit by bit if he will just begin taking small steps in a better direction. If I was Luke I would be willing to devote how ever long it takes to this. But even then, I am not sure it would work. Kylo was pretty clear about how he feels about the idea of Luke trying to save his soul. And Luke said that he can't save him and isn't trying to. I want to place hope in how he said he will see Kylo around, that maybe he won't leave him alone.

- Ghost Anakin - This could be interesting in that Anakin would be able to make Kylo see just maybe that he is wrong. Kylo will likely revisit his bond with Vader in IX as now it is his only bond. Vader is the only one Kylo is now devoted to, though it seems to also be an ideal of Vader that Snoke had which may be so different from the actual Vader that Kylo would get nothing out of talking to ghost Anakin. He could very well ultimately reject him as well, because Kylo's true bond is with the darkness itself at this point.

- The power of personal transformation - Kylo is free of Snoke in person now (assuming Snoke is dead) but he isn't free of Snoke in his mind IMO. Snoke's invasive manipulations began too early and so Kylo's own mind is twisted in a way that reflects Snoke. But if he could just get one little bit of clarity somewhere, somehow, it's possible he could transform himself. He is strong willed and stubborn and is capable of working hard. The problem is that he doesn't have any clarity and seems to be just as unresponsive to it as to love. He wouldn't recognize it if it came. I don't think his journey with Rey afforded him much (if any) clarity. He was trying to get Rey to fit into his vision of things, but he wasn't learning anything from her as far as I can tell. He would not listen. And he answers her questions with his warped story about himself - he killed Han because his parents threw him away. That story isn't true. The true story is that he hurt when his parents weren't there and Snoke helped him spin it into the fiction he believes today. He has to unspin it, and he doesn't have insight enough to do it.

- Surrendering to Rey - This wouldn't be a full out redemption, but if Kylo could see enough or learn enough from Rey to get that he is wrong and simply surrender to her because even though he doesn't understand fully why he understands enough to know that she is right... But again, he is blind. The problem is that I didn't see enough light in Kylo in VIII to be something he can work with. And by the end what he had is greatly diminished. He is at the end the creature Snoke was trying to shape him into. And I fear the next time he appears the wounds that could be cracked open will now be hardened over. He will have accepted that he is utterly alone and be capable of caring for no one - the revelation Rey has in the dark side cave (all the mirrors and she can see only herself and she never felt so alone).

- The Balance - This goes back to act of the Force. But I cannot see what would inspire Kylo to want to achieve this nebulous idea that I don't even understand what it means and realize the meaning of the Prime Jedi. I can only hope I have underestimated Kylo's ability to gain insight.

Another sad thing about Kylo's defeat of Snoke is that I think Rey being there helped him find the resolve, because finally he wasn't alone. Her being there gave him strength. But when he killed Snoke it wasn't to save Rey, it was to destroy something he hates. It was a pure act on the dark side. So Snoke won TLJ whether he is secretly still alive or not.

One thing I really hope IX covers is the boy who was lost. I think he is in the TFA novelization in Rey's Force vision. And I still hope that he can come back, but it looks utterly dire. I don't believe that Rey doing something to facilitate his return is some misogynistic storyline. Rey *does* work to facilitate the greater good in everything she does. So if Rey finds a way to do something it isn't her being weak, it's her being strong. She's already demonstrated in TLJ that she is not going to bother with paths that won't work. If she finds one that will, by all means, please do it.

 

I am not sure that a discussion about if Rey is Kylo's way back or not is really the question to focus on.

If I can have compassion for Kylo, I know that Rey can and perhaps she even does, but having compassion for Kylo can't save him. Leia loved Kylo and wanted him back for years. Han loved Kylo. Luke probably loved Kylo, though it is less than I expected. Kylo is so damaged he can't receive love and he can't feel it either, IMO. He was drawn to Rey's warmth, to someone who can love, and he wanted her with him so he wouldn't be alone. But the way he wanted it was to have someone with him in the emptiness, the cold, the darkness, craving that little bit of warmth that he can't generate himself. It's a sort of relationship of dependency he was trying to set up because he is so broken that it's the only sort of relationship he can understand. His dreams in this are as impossible as Anakin's at the end of ROTS, but he can't see it.

Rey reminds me of "Right Action" on the 8-fold-path. She isn't "Rey Therapist." She tried to kick Luke into action, but she wasn't going to stick around and talk out his feelings with him. He has to stand on his own, and if he won't, she is going with another plan. She is single-minded in her objective to help the Resistance and nothing is going to sidetrack her from it. Either Luke and Kylo can help, or they can be left behind, because she is not going to stop trying every way she can think of. She doesn't give up and she only tries to further the greater good in all of her actions. If Kylo was amenable to following her way, she would take him. If he isn't, she will leave him. She's pretty straight forward in all of this.

Kylo's path in VIII is into greater darkness. He begins with his pain and conflict and in the end finds greater resolve in the darkness, just like Snoke wanted. If Snoke really is dead, this was his final manipulation. He has completed Kylo's training. Snoke is pleased when he senses Kylo's intentions to destroy, the dark side flowing through him without conflict. Kylo says "I know what I have to do" only this time there is no question of if he has the strength to do it. And Snoke loves that because it is Kylo fully on the dark side. At the end of the movie Kylo is no longer conflicted about sending the FO after his mother. When he fights Luke these purple streaks are coming out around his scar reminding me of when Ahsoka was poisoned to the dark side in TCW Mortis episodes.

And you could say that now that Kylo is free of Snoke (assuming Snoke is dead) that he is freed, but he's not. Snoke has done so much damage through his abuse and manipulations and he got his claws in so early before Ben could properly defend himself (he was still a child), that Snoke is part of Kylo.

The only ways I can see for Ben Solo's redemption at this point are:

- A miracle of the Force - The light side of the Force itself takes him back and heals his broken person, driving out all the poison of the dark side out. This would be the equivalent of redemption via "God." The reason for doing this in the story is because what happened to Ben Solo was a terrible injustice. This psychic presence far stronger than him infiltrated his mind from an early age and began turning him. Both Leia and Luke believe this. Luke believes he failed, but I suspect by the time he got Ben it was either already too late or it took just a little too long for him to see clearly what the problem was. Snoke destroyed Ben Solo and made him a weapon to use against his family, and there is no justice for that child who was lost. OTOH I can see them not going there because the truth of children who are turned to serve wars is that many can't be recovered IRL. It is too late. The time to save them is when they are still children. But Star Wars is something I look to for hope, that there is always hope. And I can't stand this nihilistic closing of the door.

- Ghost Luke - Snoke has been with Kylo in his mind for so long, turning all of his intentions and feelings that the only way I can see to heal him a bit less miraculously is if someone will stay with him and reverse it, help him examine all of his feelings and responses as they arise and show that there is a better decision to make, a different way to feel, something that will lead to him feeling better bit by bit if he will just begin taking small steps in a better direction. If I was Luke I would be willing to devote how ever long it takes to this. But even then, I am not sure it would work. Kylo was pretty clear about how he feels about the idea of Luke trying to save his soul. And Luke said that he can't save him and isn't trying to. I want to place hope in how he said he will see Kylo around, that maybe he won't leave him alone.

- Ghost Anakin - This could be interesting in that Anakin would be able to make Kylo see just maybe that he is wrong. Kylo will likely revisit his bond with Vader in IX as now it is his only bond. Vader is the only one Kylo is now devoted to, though it seems to also be an ideal of Vader that Snoke had which may be so different from the actual Vader that Kylo would get nothing out of talking to ghost Anakin. He could very well ultimately reject him as well, because Kylo's true bond is with the darkness itself at this point.

- The power of personal transformation - Kylo is free of Snoke in person now (assuming Snoke is dead) but he isn't free of Snoke in his mind IMO. Snoke's invasive manipulations began too early and so Kylo's own mind is twisted in a way that reflects Snoke. But if he could just get one little bit of clarity somewhere, somehow, it's possible he could transform himself. He is strong willed and stubborn and is capable of working hard. The problem is that he doesn't have any clarity and seems to be just as unresponsive to it as to love. He wouldn't recognize it if it came. I don't think his journey with Rey afforded him much (if any) clarity. He was trying to get Rey to fit into his vision of things, but he wasn't learning anything from her as far as I can tell. He would not listen. And he answers her questions with his warped story about himself - he killed Han because his parents threw him away. That story isn't true. The true story is that he hurt when his parents weren't there and Snoke helped him spin it into the fiction he believes today. He has to unspin it, and he doesn't have insight enough to do it.

- Surrendering to Rey - This wouldn't be a full out redemption, but if Kylo could see enough or learn enough from Rey to get that he is wrong and simply surrender to her because even though he doesn't understand fully why he understands enough to know that she is right... But again, he is blind. The problem is that I didn't see enough light in Kylo in VIII to be something he can work with. And by the end what he had is greatly diminished. He is at the end the creature Snoke was trying to shape him into. And I fear the next time he appears the wounds that could be cracked open will now be hardened over. He will have accepted that he is utterly alone and be capable of caring for no one - the revelation Rey has in the dark side cave (all the mirrors and she can see only herself and she never felt so alone).

- The Balance - This goes back to act of the Force. But I cannot see what would inspire Kylo to want to achieve this nebulous idea that I don't even understand what it means and realize the meaning of the Prime Jedi. I can only hope I have underestimated Kylo's ability to gain insight.

Another sad thing about Kylo's defeat of Snoke is that I think Rey being there helped him find the resolve, because finally he wasn't alone. Her being there gave him strength. But when he killed Snoke it wasn't to save Rey, it was to destroy something he hates. It was a pure act on the dark side. So Snoke won TLJ whether he is secretly still alive or not.

One thing I really hope IX covers is the boy who was lost. I think he is in the TFA novelization in Rey's Force vision. And I still hope that he can come back, but it looks utterly dire. I don't believe that Rey doing something to facilitate his return is some misogynistic storyline. Rey *does* work to facilitate the greater good in everything she does. So if Rey finds a way to do something it isn't her being weak, it's her being strong. She's already demonstrated in TLJ that she is not going to bother with paths that won't work. If she finds one that will, by all means, please do it.

 

this server seems to be as broken as kylo is.

 

Yoda too

 

This kind of post has been a reason for people to be warned and banned before. My impression is that discussing an actor's appearance especially in this baiting way and alluding that the reason some people appreciate a particular story-line is because of the physical appearance of an actor is a big "no go", or it should be.
So, no.