ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Well at least Luke did not destroy property.

 

Until he loses his **** at the end of each movie and starts screaming.

Right, and the destroying property.

Those behaviors are much like Anakin at the end of ROTS.

"TRAITOR!!!!!"

" I'm sure you are! "

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

 

Han destroys property all the darn time! He can't stop destroying comlinks over boring conversations, shooting at garbage compactors, dumping illicit cargo and killing Mos Eisley Cantina customers, leaving behind the mess for the bartender.

He's also prone to a lot of risky impulsive behavior like running screaming after Stormtroopers, going out into the Hoth wilderness despite temperature warnings, navigating asteroid fields, trash-talking Jabba at his execution and playing tag with Stormtroopers.

 

I do not think Anakin ever actually destroyed property.

 

Like when he didn't shatter everything in the room with the Force and his "Noooooooo!" ?

 

Completely forgot about that. Never mind then

 

I think this summaries exactly how Ben/Kylo feels about Rey.

 

I think at the end of the movie he was leaning more on the kill side.

 

And I think you are mistaken.
His sad defeated look when he senses Rey through their bond at the end tells all.
This ain't over.

 

Yet he tells Luke that he will kill her.

 

This is becoming a redundant repetitive circle. I thought we already addressed that part earlier today 5 pages ago.
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/rey-kylo-ren-in-episode-ix.50047262/page-84#post-54831620

People say all sort of things that they don't really mean.

 

Exactly. He tells LUKE something meant to get a rise out of LUKE that both of them know is a load of utter crap.

This is the same Luke that went full C-3PO cockblock during the Reylo hand-touching scene, thus knowing perfectly well that his nephew is into that girl he's pretending he hasn't been cavorting with behind everyone's backs.

Add that to another parallel. Not to mention Han's penchant for using his pretty looks and taking advantage of incidental/forced intimacy to get a rise out of Leia. Ben went with it, though he's considerably less experienced than dear old dad.

 

The point is the last scene of him looking up at Rey with a sad/dejected look clarifies he did not mean it when he said he would destroy her. It was like when someone says something when they are angry and in the heat of the moment, but they do not really mean it. Kids do it when they tell their parents, “I hate you!” when they are angry.

ETA - @Obi-Wan Solo-Skywalker, I just saw you already responded to this, after I posted my response.

 

As far as whether Kylo meant it when he said he'd kill Rey to end the Jedi order, on one hand, I don't think we have enough evidence to prove whether he was just speaking in the heat of the moment or if he was serious about it. The subsequent scene where he seems to try and make his offer to her again could prove he didn't mean it, but it could also just mean that he intended to spare her if she joined him but still kill her if she chose to stick to the Jedi path. The novelization may tell us for sure what was going on in his head in those moment and Episode 9 will presumably show us whether he will try to kill her or not if she chooses to become a Jedi, but we really don't have a way to prove right now which is more likely.

On the other hand, based on his track record, I think we do have to take his threat seriously; he's proven to be very capable of killing people to advance his agenda or cross him, even if he has some form of regret. His offer to join him in the first place didn't really seem to allow her to say "no." The instant she tries to take her saber back, he tries to stop her, which really suggests that he wasn't giving her much of a choice (join or we're enemies and we all know who deal in those kinds of absolutes). Once again, we'll have to see what future materials reveal about the scenes, but I honestly get the impression that whatever attachment Kylo has for Rey is very conditional.

As far as whether any chance of rapprochement is in the cards, I think that depends on how Kylo takes Rey's final rejection, if he still wants to try and win her over or decides its hopeless and wants revenge for being rejected (like how Green Goblin spend the last act of the first Spider-Man movie trying to get revenge on and kill Spidey since he couldn't accept his offer of partnership being rejected). I think it also depends on if Rey is still willing to give Kylo another chance or if she's cut him off for good (I think it's the latter, but once again, it remains for future material to confirm or deny how I'm reading the door-shutting scene).

Overall, I think the moral of the story is that we don't have enough info to accurately predict where things'll go next, since we don't even know for sure what the last scenes in TLJ mean. Case in point, we're all interpreting a lot of this stuff differently as is; some people think that TLJ shows that Kylo and Rey will or could reconcile in Episode 9, that that's what should happen, and that it's clearly shown in the movie. I saw the same movie and think that it deconstructed the whole "Reylo" idea and not only showed why it's not a good thing, much less something that could work, but also gave it a double tap to the head and shut down any chance of it being resurrected again in Episode 9 and I can't really understand how others came to a different conclusion.

I could be right, the others could be right, but we don't know yet and until we get further evidence, I don't think we can accurately say one way or the other, since our theories have a high level of subjectivity to them. So, check back in March and we'll see what the novelization has to say.

[Edit: another thought. A previous poster thought that Kylo looking sad when Rey rejects him a second time (or reaffirms her first rejection?) at the end proves that he never had the intention of killing her. I suppose that's possible. It's also possible that he was sad since he thought that it meant that they will be enemies, so he'll have to kill her after all instead of being allies or whatever exactly he hoped the future had in store for them. I could be off, but sadness doesn't rule out that he's won't plan to kill her if she stays a Jedi and on the side of the Resistance, the Jedi, and the other stuff he's promised to wipe out.]

 

I think the movie already tells us plenty. Ask yourself, what is the point of having a scene showing Kylo staring up at Rey looking sad/dejected after he said he would destroy her? If killing her was his true intention, why muddy the waters with a sad Kylo looking at Rey scene? Or, why not show him looking furious and her immediately shutting the door without an extended look. I believe that scene also sets up that their Force connection is still in place, which leaves a way to reopen the door between them. That sets up their Ep. 9 dynamic for JJ Abrams.

When Kylo told Luke he would destroy Rey, he was enraged, reacting to something said by Luke: someone he resents and hates. Yet when confronted with Rey in that last Force connection, he stares up at her with a look of sorrow. He even appears to be trying to appeal to her. Kylo has never been able to muster any rage for Rey when she is in front of him. Not when she shot at him, not when she turned the mind probe on him, not when she called him a monster, not when she beat him and slashed his face, etc., etc. For someone who angers so easily, this is quite peculiar and significant.

I find it truly fascinating how some people such as yourself, think the idea of “Reylo" was deconstructed and shut down in Ep. 8 when there is another movie left and they are now the only central dramatic dynamic. IMO, Ep. 8 actually built a stronger foundation for Reylo and gave it higher dramatic stakes. It is far from over.

 

This one way of looking at Star Wars, but please forgive me when I say that I really doubt that at 5 years old you looked at Leia because she was a "feminist manifesto" (which she wasn't by the way).
Just look at the way she was painted in the original poster of the film from 1977



She looked like a fairy tale princess every step of the way. She talked back to men taking no crap from anyone (especially from Han Solo) because she was royalty and used to get her own way, like ANY princess in a fairy tale. This is what I believe appealed to you, as much as it appealed to my 12-years-old self.
Later on you took on the feminist undertones of her personality, she was a princess with a gun, a very strong woman, but a princess archetype nonetheless who inspired the hero to start his journey. If George Lucas had inverted the roles and made Luke the prince and Leia the farm girl, her attitude towards putting up with stupid people might have been different -simply out of necessity (I said "might", I guess we'll never know).

How do you feel about Ltn. Ripley from Alien? Because that's probably the feminist manifesto you're referring to. That woman real kicked men's (and beast's) a***s! But was no princess, wore no white dress and did not excite romantic feelings to the crew of her ship. You must have been 7 whan Alien came out and I think it was PG 13. But you may have seen the film later.

IMHO applying feminist analysis to fairy tales is very simplistic because it just scratches the surface.
We are talking about timeless myths and archetypes that go deep down the human psyche, that touch the realm on the unconscious, of primordial drives that do not stop at social conventions and definitely display all those things that made the moderator close this thread, so I won't go there.
If we apply feminist principles to myths and fairy tales we are forced to focus on what may look like an abusive treatment of women and IGNORE ANYTHING ELSE that contradicts it.

Please do understand that I respect your point of view, but as a woman deeply in love with myths and fairy tales, I cannot subscribe to it.

 

Just because he still wants her to be an ally doesn't prove that he'd show quarter if she refuses to defect. My position is not "he's only wants her dead now," but "he wanted her to defect, however I don't trust that he'd spare her if she remains an enemy." Does that make any sense? (I'm just theorizing on this, I don't have anything to back it up.)

I am sure that the Powers That Be are giving Abrams as many possibilities to build off of as possible. As far as why not showing Kylo angry in the last scene, I think that could've complicated the point that he was still hoping for her to change his mind. I'd want to see the movie again to double-check on how long Rey waits before shutting the door, but I thought that the acting was communicating resolution and no regrets, like she'd decided it was over and done. The Force link could still be in place, but that doesn't prove their still going to be on friendly terms. (While I don't think we can predict anything for sure, Abrams directed the more evil Kylo, so there is a possibility that Episode 9 could see Kylo closer to that than not.)

He was quite angry when he found she'd escaped the torture chamber in TFA. Just saying.

I'm kinda fascinated that it was ever a thing in the first place. At any rate, I think it was deconstructed in the sense of how incompatible they were shown to be as allies (or anything else, for that matter). I mean, the whole central point of the story where Rey tries to get Kylo to redeem himself is that she made a gross mistake and completely misjudged him (kind of the same with him and their ideas that they were going to be on the same side). They don't really have anything in common in terms of morality, future life ambitions, etc. Am I making any sense here?

As far as it being shut down, put it this way. I'm sure that the character's interactions will be an important factor in the next movie and resolving the Force story arc. However, I don't think that it's a good foundation for them ever being on the same side, given, as noted above, they don't have common ground, Kylo repenting is a long shot, and the movie ends with Rey shutting the door in his face without a trace of regret. Put it this way, I could see an interesting enemies Reylo scenario, but not a friends or romantic one, based on the evidence so far (so far being the key words).

Besides, the point I was making was how subjective this stuff is; you and I got totally different messages from the same things. That's the exact reason why I'm eager for new materials to expand on the movie; to get some official answers.

 

He's sad because he failed. Here's the thing, the scene could mean many things at that moment. Rey was, by exstenion, a connection to his father and mother, and uncle. She has the ship, she has the saber, she has the beacon connecting her to Leia. She has, everything, that he should have had. He's sad because, if you look at it away from romance, she's become the person that he thought he should have been or would have been had he not allowed himself to be absorbed by Snoke and his own hang ups. There's a scene that follows the moment of him looking at the dice and before Rey shuts the door. That of Hux smirking in a knowing way, as if he sees every option for Ben having been cut off. His own actions causing this. It reminds me so much of a kid that has screwed up looking at his mom or sibling and making that realization that he's disappointed them. I kind of see the door more that she blocked him for now. If the connection is still there, I think that might mean that Snoke may still be around, given the TLJ art book hints that there was plans for a spirit battle with a sith ghost, so we may see that with Luke at some point.

He has the same reaction when it comes to his mother. He can't hurt her or attack her. It takes others to do it. So maybe he sees in Rey a lot of what he sees in his mother. The thing though is that the door shutting is at the very least a "I'm not dealing with your crap" moment for Rey. He basically played with her emotions to get her to do what he wanted. She realized that and shut the door because she didn't want to be in that situation again. To me it doesn't deconstruct it, but it does play on the idea that if the guy comes off as sorry the girl will automatically be able to forgive him, and Rey shut that down. She saw what he was doing, how he was hurting her, and others, and rejected that idea. I think it might make it more dramatic in the sense that they're going to be on opposing sides and that their battle will be very different come the next movie.

I'm going to add something to that. So, I was looking at the bolder scene, and as I was saying in the Poe and Rey thread, the way the scene is framed when she lifts the bolders, it seems to indicate that Rey is representing the Sun, since she brings in the light to the cave and illuminates the faces of the people in there. With that in mind, a proposal. IF Rey is the sun, representing the spirital aspect of the galaxy, and Poe in this case, being the Rebels, is the Moon that is illuminated by the sun, this would put them both on governing ends of the Sea (earth), in this case represented by Ben. In Japanese Myth you have the Sun Goddess Amatratsu, who is brothers with the Moon god, Tsuki -yomi, who is the calm one, and Susanoo, the sea god, who is more temperamental. Both Amatratsu and Tsukiyomi have influence on the Susanoo, who also became god of the underworld due to his violence, but his siblings were always trying to get him to return to them. Finn would probably fall under one of the other gods as well, but I'm not sure which one that would be at the moment.

Rian seems to be influenced a lot by various anime, and I have to wonder if there is some influence in Japanese mythology going on here.

 

Exactly. If he had really meant it, they can hear each other when the bond opens up.

He had every opportunity to tell her he was taking no prisoners, he was going to kill her, her friends, and her friends' friends. He could have spit venom at her. Instead he just looks sad and remorseful.

Reminds me of my 11 year old after she blows up about something and comes back to apologize after she's calmed down.

 

Subscriber to Myths and fairy tales myself, the thing though is that when you're talking about the idea of Star Wars you have to look at it from an entirely different point of view, away from Fairy tales and more into actual science fiction and serials, and, yes, comics and pulp from the period of time that George was pulling from when he first wrote the OT. Leia is, for all accounts, very much based around and on a lot of stronger female leads from the 40s and 50s serials from when he was a kid. Not a princess in the most logical sense but a heroine that could end up in danger, but was also very much her own person and could handle herself in a fight when it came down to it. Much like Valerian and Laureline, who seemed to have inspired George some as well. Given this, I wouldn't directly subject the idea of Star Wars to strictly fairy tales, but rather more in line with the adventure epics.

Fairy tales normally impart a moral other then, if you're good you win and have a happy ending, if you are bad you lose. Red riding hood *don't trust strange forginers in the woods for they will harm you in many ways*, Cinderella *Selfishness will be punished, but being a decent person and pushing past your situations will allow you to be rewarded*, Snow White *Death comes to those who chose to kill the rightful heirs* etc. Where as with Star Wars, it's more, Don't let yourself be evil because evil won't win. If you strictly look at the OT alone. Now the PT added the idea and weight of Temptation to it, but I don't think of them as Fairy Tales.

Actually if you look at Fairy tales from any view you're going to have to deeply delve into not only the story itself but the culture where it's from and you may have to go back to the original language in some cases because some of the story may have been changed over the years to fit with modern telling.

This is why I, personally, have to go "Why are we equating Ben to a prince" when he's not a Royal anymore. Leia abdicated the role to another person in her comic series, and has since been a representative, so Ben would have no title to hold onto. Nor would he have any title from Padme either. As I said above, it's more an Adventure Epic then a Fairy tale.

 

This.so.much.

 

@Valency Jane I think the main message after the PG scene is the realization that it is not as simple as it looks ("this is not going to be the way you think" - Luke was right for once).
There is no doubt that her feelings are strong, so much that she's willing to risk her life (without considering the risk she imposes on Kylo in the process) to save him. It comes after the touching-hand scene which, as already pointed out in this thread, was a wedding where they both acknowledge their mutual feelings and belonging.
BUT
But she is wrong as much as he is, perhaps even more so.
She imposes a condition first, born from the misunderstanding of her vision ("You'll turn. I saw it. I'll help you").
He adds another one of his own, ("Join me to rule together") and this is where it snaps.

The broken sword is a wonderful symbolic underlining this dynamic. The sword is his point of view because it is a male symbol and it is his heritage: he gives his legacy sword to her, freely, after the "wedding" -take it as a wedding ring- acknowledging her power, but then she refuses to join him BUT wants the sword back. The sword cannot take part this time; it belongs to her but to him as well (it was his gift). So it snaps simbolizing a break in their dynamic, loss of power, of innocence.
Rey must reforge the sword, she must heal the break.

From the ending of TLJ I have the feeling that considering the Rebellion her new Family is an illusion for Rey. She is surrounded by friends but she sits all alone with a broken sword in the hand. This is what makes me believe that she'll be regarded as a "strange animal" among the Rebels. A girl with immense power (see the awe on their faces when she moves the rocks AND the music from J. Williams, going beyond the Force theme) but different, not exactly belonging to the lot but a welcome asset. The pressure on her to save the day will be huge.

She has the books to learn all about the Force, but I expect her painful loneliness will move her towards Ben once more, that was their first common ground.
The Force Bond is a scarily powerful thing. The one she has with Ben is even stronger than Luke and Leia or Luke and Vader had. They have no control over it, she definitely cannot close it unless one of them dies or close himself/herself to the Force like Luke did. Even then, the Force Bond leaves a void, a wound (according to Wookiepedia).
I do not see that happening, he needs his powers to keep the FO under leash and she to help her friends.
So they'll have to cope with anytime Force Skyping without pre-alerts. This may provide for interesting conversations, they can try to ignore each other, but will sense their mutual thoughts and feelings nonetheless. There's no place they can hide.
Cool.

 

You know what? I think she did hear him, she heard Kylo's "I will distroy her, and you and all of it" and responded in kind by closing the door of the Falcon.
Maybe she even send telepathically: "Don't even think I will ever touch your hand again, pal"

The novelization cannot come too soon

 

Because this is what JJ Abrams calls him in the film commentary in the Blu-ray edition of TFA.
Also confirmed by Adam Driver in an interview to Rolling Stone.

 

The dark prince of the story.