CT Did Vader/Anakin actually deserve forgiveness?

I suppose this could be in the general discussion forum, but because Vader's redemption happens in the OT, as does his death and the appearance of his force ghost, I figure it makes sense to post it here. Apologies if this has been talked about to death or covered in memes! I'm new here, so please be kind.

I resonated with the idea that Luke's love for his father ultimately saved Vader and returned him to the light in Return of the Jedi. It was a beautiful moment and one that I always looked forward to when watching the trilogy. After so much heartache, pain, and death caused by Vader, and seeing Luke suffer as a result of Vader's malice, seeing Luke believe so strongly that there's good in his father despite everything he wrought was inspiring. It was and is a beautiful moment.

Then we got the fall of Anakin Skywalker in the prequel trilogy. And...well...Anakin is a child murderer. Not just one child. But a murderer of children. This single act seems so unforgivable and so horrendous, that to this day I can't really say I "like" Darth Vader or find him sympathetic. Yes, he's probably the most famous and iconic villain in movie history, to the point of people getting tattoos of him and putting up posters of him in their rooms, but at the end of the day, this is someone who killed innocent kids because he felt like it.

Even when I watch The Clone Wars, where Anakin is a sympathetic and likeable hero with faults aplenty, I can't shake the knowledge of what he will do in the future, and it makes me raise an eyebrow when people tell me that Anakin is their favourite character, or that he's "the real victim" of the story. Don't get me wrong, he was misled and lied to by the Jedi Council, but his subsequent decision to murder the younglings was so disproportionate to his plight that it made him utterly irredeemable to me, and not worthy of the praise or iconography that he gets. Nevermind the atrocities he commits after he actually becomes Darth Vader.

Wearing a Vader t-shirt? You might as well slap a picture of Stalin on yourself and call it a day.

Well, I'll leave this here as a starting point for this discussion. It is meant to be serious, but with a hint of tongue in cheek. Vader is compelling, and Anakin was a brave and selfless ally during the clone wars, but that single act tarnished his entire legacy to me, and made the redemption in RotJ not feel as pure and good as it did before we knew that Anakin slayed kids.

And how do you think Luke would have reacted to Vader if he had known that his dad had committed such an act?! Feels like there's a satirical fan film to be made there. Just 5 minutes of Vader lying there and recounting all of his horrible past deeds to his son, who thinks he's a super good dude, would recommend! And then Luke just cringes and his face just becomes more pained the longer he listens.

Thoughts or memes, anyone?

 

Someone asked Lucas this very question during the making of ROTJ (it may have been Howard Kazanjian) and George basically said ISN'T THAT WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS ALL ABOUT, FORGIVING PEOPLE IN THE AFTERLIFE.

IMHO no, Vader does not deserve forgiveness. He is basically the Jamie Lannister of STAR WARS, except his good dead was arguably less noble than Jamie's was. Jamie acted to save thousands of innocent lives. Vader only did what he did to save one person.

 

Ah, I didn't know that. Either way, Lucas missed the part of the Old Testament that mentions something called the Ten Commandments, which, you know, forbid killing.

 

Better face the grim reality of what "help the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights" really meant than try to dance around and pretend Vader didn't really kill children like so many people want him to do. I mean, if he stood by and watched Alderaan blow up without objection, then yes, he would kill children.

With Vader, since that fateful day on Mustafar, he has been living in hell every single day. Trapped in a life-support suit after being burned to a crisp and being told that he killed his wife. It destroyed Anakin and left nothing but self-hatred and resignation. The point of Vader's redemption isn't about forgiveness, it's realizing that it's never too late to turn back to the light and seek redemption. That's why Luke surprised Vader and everyone. He gave his father a chance to turn back from the Dark Side when everyone else gave up on him. Vader became conflicted because he spent years rationalizing his actions and fate as destiny, as something he was meant to be. He thought redemption was laughable until Luke gave him unconditional forgiveness and an offer.

That is what gave Vader the courage to kill Darth Sidious at the expense of his own life. And killing Darth Sidious doesn't save one person; it destroys the very keystone that holds the Empire together. Without the Emperor, the Empire collapsed very quickly.

 

Probably not

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Objectively, I don't think so. I used to be much tougher about it. But one of the messages of the OT is that anybody can be redeemed if somebody cares enough like Luke did.

If Luke knew what Vader had done? Well, by that point, he may not have known about the Younglings, but he knew about Alderaan and probably equivalently heinous acts Vader had committed over the years, as @devilinthedetails points out

The fact that he didn't deserve Luke's forgiveness makes Luke's efforts to redeem him all the more powerful. And Luke knew two things: that Vader had once been a good person, and that the man behind the mask was the father he'd longed to know.

That said, the believability of it depends on Vader dying soon afterwards, I think. He's much less likely to be forgiven by anyone else, and rightly.

 

A Youtube did a What If on Vader living, and They had Vader and Luke going on the run. I don't think Vader would have not wanted to face retribution for what he did...

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I understand people may have different perspectives.

Based on my faith, I do believe Vader deserved forgiveness-I believe anyone does-regardless of what is done-if they are remorseful. Forgiveness is not conditional. How many bad things would someone have to do before they reach the point where they can't be forgiven? Where exactly is that line? If one is remorseful and acknowledges their need for forgiveness, they are forgiven. And forgiveness is possible without the need to have people also feel sympathetic to them-because sympathy and forgiveness are not the same thing. I do not believe Anakin deserved sympathy-but if he were to seek forgiveness I don't personally believe it should have been denied him-whether he simply cut off someone's hand with a lightsaber or killed a room full of children. And if that were NOT true, and there's NO chance for redemption-then that is a very sad concept, and I'd wonder what would be the point of even trying after that, if there were indeed no hope.


Again, this concept all depends on one's personal beliefs. This is my belief based on my faith. I understand people may disagree-and that's fine.

 

I'd also like to add that forgiveness is not the same as escaping justice. Vader objectively did deserve to face justice, though that doesn't negate his redemption or Luke's forgiveness. So as I said, it's best for the narrative that he died after saving Luke.

 

100% this.

 

Totally. If Vader had lived I can't see him hanging out in the Rebel lounge playing the "how many of your friends did I kill?" game with the other Rebels.

 

The whole point of forgiveness is that the forgiven doesn't deserve it. If someone deserves forgiveness, they've earned it, hence they have atoned and no longer need forgiveness.

This debate long precedes the PT. Throughout the OT we've seen him Vader committing murder, torture, and genocide, so the younglings massacre adds little to the issue.

 

Lucas and Marquand brought this debate up and discussed it in 1981 according to The Making of Return of the Jedi.

 

Forgiveness is about forgiving someone regardless of whether they deserve it or not. It doesn't strictly mean that the person doesn't deserve it, it just means it doesn't matter whether the person deserves forgiveness or not.

 

First, there are three types of forgiveness, I'd say: personal forgiveness, Divine forgiveness, and official forgiveness. Say X steals my car, then has a religious epiphany and realizes he's done wrong. He returns my car to me and apologizes; I accept because no real harm was done, and that's personal forgiveness. X confesses his sin to God and genuinely repents; God forgives him, and that's Divine forgiveness. X turns himself in to the police, faces a judge and apologizes; the judge lets him off with a warning, and that's official forgiveness. However, all three are not always together. I could hold a grudge and not accept the apology. God may see the repentance as false and disregard it. And the judge may still give X a few months in the county lockup.
So, let's apply this to Ani/Vader. Luke sees the conflict in Ani, knows how strong the Dark Side is, and forgives his father. Thus, personal forgiveness. Ani repents his crimes, and he's allowed to go to Light Side Heaven to see Padme and his Mom and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan again. (Hey, I'm sentimental, and that's how I look at it.) That the GFFA equivalent of Divine forgiveness. However, even if Ani lived and threw himself on the mercy of the court, no way can he get official forgiveness. His crimes are too great. Best he can hope for is life without parole, rather than spacing or the chair.
Did Ani deserve forgiveness? No. He was weak, foolish and fearful, and he let it push him into mainlining the Dark Side to the point where he just didn't care what he was doing. By the time he knew he was on the wrong side of things, it was too late, so he just went with it until he could take over and put things "right", as he saw it. In the end, he turned back and repented, but he still deserved to get the boom lowered on him. Which it was, as in multiple dismemberment, electrocution, immolation, permanent disabilities, and death. But he didn't go to Sith Hell like Palpatine, thanks to an act of grace (defined as "unmerited favor" in Christianity) from the Light Side, in response to Luke's faith and Ani's repentance and, according to some sources, help from Obi-Wan and Yoda.
Well, that's how I see it, anyway.

 

Not really. However I still get it and I like it, but he didn’t really deserve it. He killed countless people

 

If you deserve it it's not really forgiveness, right? It might be atonement or justice or something, but it isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness is what saves people who would never survive the consequences of strict justice.

A lot of action movies are about justice or comeuppance or revenge. Star Wars, in the end, is about something quite different.

 

I don't think there is an answer set in stone about this situation. I guess it depends upon the individual fan. Some believe Anakin did. Some don't.

 

Yes, good post here. Although TROS screwed up(my least fav SW film by far) the "without the emperor part" but thats not for this thread!

As to whether Vader deserves forgiveness has to be based on your belief that either he was acting completely on his own or if there were forces partially controling him. Or, nope, he knew what he was doing and is therefoe 100% responsible for every bit of it. I hate to use the cliched "the devil made me do it" type of argument but Vader was "seduced" by the dark side and he isnt the only one throughout history whos succombed to it. His entire life was sort of a mess. No father, no family support, separated from his Mother although that was his decision ultimately. Then Jedi training(a hard life), reuniting with Padme, his mother dying, nightmares, fear of loss, etc, etc. It starts to pile up and you can only take so much.

I agree that Anakins redemption isnt about forgivness but rather turning back as you said. Good way to put it. Myself, I certainly cant forgive the slaying of children but at that moment.....how sane was he? How much control did the Emperor have over him at that time?

 

BuT VaDeR kiLEd kiDs iN the PreQuels!!! HOw coUld wE foRgiVe hiM noW?

Do you guys think Alderaan was just a planet full of adults?

 

If this were a real story about a real person who actually existed and actually committed atrocities? No, absolutely not, by that measure the man was a genocide-abiding, mass-murdering, war criminal maniac who subjected both his wife and his two children to acts of inexcusable violence.

In the context of Star Wars as a fairy tale story about larger-than-life figures operating in the language of mythopoetic tropes? Yeah, sure, that's kinda the whole point. You make a relatable message that's applicable to real life (people who have done bad things are not incapable of being better, people who have made mistakes can be deserving of love and forgiveness, it's never too late to do the right thing, etc.) using a wildly exaggerated scale and circumstances that no one will ever find themselves in.

Judging Star Wars, or any comparable story where the pure-hearted heroes regularly commit war crimes set to an upbeat score and to our great delight, by the same moral standards that we use in real life, is an exercise in futility and an example of "missing the point entirely."

 

Actually, Tarkin gets the direct blame for Alderaan. He came up with the idea and he gave the firing order. There's been a lot of debate on whether or not Vader had the authority to override Tarkin on this. In any case, Vader kept silent, so he bears some responsibility, though not all.