181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!

Liliedhe - just to clarify about the cover, I should have clarified given what I was responding to - I actually didn't particularly mean the cleavage she was showing, it's just my thirteen year old self felt that it resembled nothing so much as a Mills & Boone novel cover and didn't want people thinking I was reading bodice-rippers.

As to where I weigh in on the Pulp vs Myth vs Grimdark issue, I certainly think that SW is big enough for all of it. But I'm never going to enjoy the stuff like this quite so much. Mainly because I always feel there's such a chance to keep that pulp feel and add some real quality and depth to the story.

I appreciate Charlie's view that there's a certain ludicrousness in attempting to elevate Saturday morning serials to the status of high art, but I also think there's a sadness in never, ever trying because you work from the assumption it's impossible?

I have to say, I didn't hate this book either. I have a natural instinct to want to make everything epic, important, artistic in the scope of things - to FIND high art in Saturday serials - and I'm even managing to do that here to a degree. But...I was disappointed in this book.

I think because as far as don't-take-this-all-that-seriously-pulp goes, I just...didn't think this was a particularly well-done example? I kept finding myself thinking that if Daley had made Han owner of a planet of women who wanted to turn him into a sex slave, things would have been far more awesome?

So for me, at least, it's less a complaint at what Wolverton might have been aiming for and more a feeling that the execution just...fell flat.

Yet, as Charlie points out, I can't deny that he created both Hapes and Dathomir, the former of which has become a very intriguing part of the EU indeed.

Oh, and I do actually plan to do Dark Journey at some point. I was going to do it the month preceeding Blood Oath's release but with that on hold, I'm waiting to see when/if it'll actually come out before suggesting bumping it up the line.

 

I don't think I insulted your taste. I just said that Star Wars has room for both and that I prefer the serious thing. Taste is subjective, I certainly wouldn't expect you have to like what I like^^. You seemed to imply that Star Wars did something wrong when it went the way of the prequels and I felt that meant that I - and everybody else who feels like me - am not a legitimate fan. Honestly, I don't have to care about that, but I still did not want to let it stand uncommented because I have heard that too often. (Not from you).

And for the record, while Star Wars certainly isn't high art, it isn't just Flash Gordon, either. It's an attempt at creating a modern Myth and was from the beginning. Which of course isn't anything new, I'm just pointing it out again.

 

I think, retroactively, the best way to look at that is that the assumption is made IU that Palpatine isolated the Nightsisters because he feared them, but of course, if he genuinely feared them, he'd have just BDZed the planet. The fact that he isolated them suggests much more that he wanted to keep them nicely in their cage, so they couldn't get out and start trouble but were available to study and use.

 

He feared what his heart told him-that he had found true love.

 

The opening scence of COPL has always stood out in my mind. General Han Solo, exhausted after a long campaign against Warlord Zsinj, is sitting on the bride of the Mon Remonda. All he can think about it seeing Leia and spending time with her.

Then all of a sudden they drop from hyperspace over Coruscant and the entire world is surrounded by Hapan battle dragons.

I loved the visual of the Mon Remonda diving into evasive action, coming so close to one Battle Dragon that he can see actual Hapans in the viewport. Right we you think it is going to be a fight or flight, Captain Onoma overrides Han's orders, much to the irritation of our beloved rogue. Only after he realizes that the Hapans are broadcasting friendlies does he calm down a bit.

Another scence that stands out in my mind is the ceremony when the Hapans present gifts to Leia. Hundreds of rainbow gems are literally deposited at her feet, each one as valuable as a single Calamari cruiser.

Yeah, that's wealth.

--Adm. Nick

 

I really enjoyed this book. Like others have said, the wishy washy Leia, going to Isolder so quickly was a bit...weird. We all knew she'd end up with Han anyway, but the book was definitely entertaining. I always like the cover of the paperback as well.

 

Having been years since I read this book, I had forgotten quite a bit of it. With the rep Bantam sometimes gets, I was surprisingly pleased by the story. It's not great, it's pretty simple really and it does have some questionable elements (pretty much all of which have already been touched on), but the execution didn't bother me as much. Yeah, it could have been done better and I think the way it went did take much of the focus off of the Han/Leia story, but I still found it entertaining enough to get through rather quickly and appreciate it for what it is.

The thing that was hard to reconcile, which everyone else has brought up was Leia. She did seems somewhat unsure of herself here and a bit out of character. Some of it was handled well. I could see the decision being hard for her, especially if she and Han have drifted apart just being apart and, as I'll mention in the next post, because Isolder is a high quality guy. Even after she gets kidnapped and ends up on Dathomir, where one would expect the peril would focus her, she still seems to jump around a bit in the book. She's not as decisive and clear-headed as one might expect and she really seems to be a supporting player in the plot. For being the title character, I don't think the story really does her justice.

Then there's Chewie. Here we get one of our examples of everyone's favorite mutt being treated like that and basically pushed off to the side. True, it may be harder to make him part of the story sometimes and we do get that supporting combat that he's so good for (like ripping the arm off of a Nightsister. Gruesome and great at the same time). It gets to the point where even he seems out of character though. Moaning in fear with Han's wild maneuvers? Really? For the past 15 or so years hasn't he been around for most of those? Shouldn't he expect insane maneuvers when piloting beside his life debtee? Then there's the part where he stays with the droids while the rest of the group moves off to infiltrate the prison without even raising an objection. It just seemed a bit off to me.

Other thoughts I took down while reading:

-At this point we get a number for the New Republic systems: 600,000

-I thought Leia's line "If we can't win peace for ourselves, then we'll fight for our children." to be interesting here given her feelings about that in the next novel on the timeline, Tatooine Ghost. Here, I'm sure, she's talking generally, but it still caught my attention.

-Taking a page from Star Trek, Wolverton designates a habitable planet "Class M".

-I think they should have made the fact that the planet Han won in the game the same planet from Luke's vision more of a surprise. Maybe have the Drackmarian call it something else to Han, then reveal it has a more common name of Dathomir to Chume and Luke or something. That's just me, though.

-Here we get more justification on why personal shielding is so rarely seen in the Star Wars universe, since it becomes more dangerous to the wearer the more stress is takes.

-I loved getting a chapter showing Threepio's perspective on Han's mood and activities at the bar.

-Droids cheering when Threepio takes the podium... not something you see every day. Well, not until The Clone Wars premiered anyway.

-Wolverton seems to not quite get the sense of scale a couple of times in the story. Toola, described by Luke as a backwater is... 300 light years from Coruscant. Okay.

- I like pronouncing the Bith starship Thpffftht.

-I'm a bit surprised that Luke and Leia immediately believe in Han's lineage. True, Threepio isn't a liar, but the information he gets doesn't necessarily have to be true either (which, of course, we later find out it's not)

-There's the Mindar ref I didn't remember when reading Shadows of Mindor.

-Luke's lightsaber is blue? Does he keep changing colors on us?

-In Luke's first meetings with Ta'a Chume he makes the note that he wants to "probe her mind further." Nice little unintentional foreshadowing given what happens to her in her last a

 

Did I find it plausible that Leia might consider the marriage to Isolder? Hard to say, having known they'd already end up together with twins coming in the Zahn books, so it was a known end. Reading it again, I can see why she considered it, especially after four years and duties that had kept them apart so much. And Leia's always been so duty-driven, always so selfless putting the Rebellion then the New Republic first. Plus the fact that, let's face it, Isolder is beyond a decent guy. He's a good guy, a great guy, even before his journey on Dathomir he's kind and respectful, protective, polite, and from the sounds of it oh so sexy. I think Leia may have seriously considered it because not only could it be good for the NR, but there was a good chance that this man might be able to make her happy. And the interesting thing is, his wealth has pretty much nothing to do with it.

And that's why I thought Han's move in winning a planet to compete with Isolder's wealth and kidnapping her were a little... ill-conceived. I have to give Han some slack, though. He's clearly not thinking this through. He thinks he's about to lose the one woman he loves more than life itself. He's drinking a lot. Leia's showing interest in another man, a situation Solo hasn't found himself in since he discovered his last rival was her brother. But he's desperate beyond belief, so he acts extremely rashly. I think later, when they were stuck on the planet, he may have begun to realize that he hadn't really thought things through.

I think getting to deal with a planet of Force witches, not to mention some unofficial apprentices in Teneniel and Isolder along with the romantic subplot, gives Luke plenty to deal with in this book, though I did think the romance itself may have been the weakest part of the book. It just seemed to jump around quite a bit, not really unfolding naturally, as if Wolverton set up the whole Luke/Teneniel/Isolder/Leia/Han pentagon but wasn't quite sure how to make that unfold, just knowing by the end he needed Leia and Han together, Luke a bachelor again, and the spares paired. Getting Luke's search for Jedi information and finding something this big, with the witches and the Chu'unthor (wish we could get more of that ship. I'm surprised no one ever told the story of the original crash/conflict) certainly makes sense for his story in the post-ROTJ world.

As for all of them ending up on Dathomir, I guess this is Star Wars and it's frequently about those strange coincidences that seem to be destiny to drive the story we see. The Queen's ship just happening to leak fuel near a backwater planet with the Chosen One living on it. The droids just happening to come across that Chosen One's son on their way to Ben Kenobi years later. Luke mentions in this book that he doesn't believe in destiny and I'm sure there's some truth to that idea, what with his father always spouting his destiny being about darkness not quite coming true, not to mention Vader's own roundabout path to his eventual purpose and end. But in Star Wars, I can't help but think that something may nudge events from time to time, whether it's the Force or whatn

 

Aw, there it is. I thought so.

Then there's this quote from the end of the book

I liked him in the Wraith books (which I actually read first) where he seemed like an actual complex villain to my young mind. I was rather disappointed here when I discovered he hardly played a part, other than being the ominous force literally hovering over events playing out.

Ditto. That's really an image that's stuck with me over the years. Mon Remonda, an advanced, beautiful, but still lone ship diving into a fleet of possible enemies. It's something I had no trouble and really enjoyed picturing.

The other scene that I always remembered was the confrontation between Teneniel and Luke with Ocheron. The storm with whipping dirt and sticks and leaves, the Nightsister appearing out of nowhere, lightning frying Teneniel, Luke's blade suddenly snapping to life off to the side and moving in for a swift beheading. I remember thinking that was a cool scene to picture.

 

Skyyyyyyyywalkers in flight!

Afternoon delight!

Aaaaaaaaaaa-ha-hafternoon delight!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd like to weigh in on the question of pulp.

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Total agreement on the thought that pulp is no excuse for a poorly-told tale. I haven't read Daley's Han Solo adventures, but they're probably the first books that I'll hungrily gobble up once I get to Korea in the fall (they tell me I'll have a lot of time to read over the year ), but I'll actually cite Agents of Chaos as very well-written pulp adventure (more on that to come next month! ). At the same time, though, I feel that over-the-top pulp like Superman fighting Hitler clones would be quite enjoyable. If a concept is so awesome that even trying to take it seriously ruins it (read: the Transformers films), then take off your critical glasses and just start cheering.

... Then again, that's probably a bad analogy. Transformers, while definitely films that don't take themselves seriously, are by no means pulp. And I suspect that any Superman issue that featured him fighting Hitler clones actually did try to take itself seriously. Heck, the SW Marvels contained some pulpy-awesome tales, but also some genuinely well-written tales that were a bit more serious, and stand the test of time as some of the best EU stuff we've ever gotten (Issue 58 and Issue 96 being standouts for me). Which raises a question, one that I'd like all of you to weigh in on --- should pulp fiction try to take itself seriously, or just go all the way in over-the-topness? I think I'm inclined to agree with Beccatoria when she says.... "there's such a chance to keep that pulp feel and add some real quality and depth to the story."

Hey, not all Aes Sedai are bad. ... Or at least, women who are Aes Sedai while still hating Aes Sedai are awesome. ... I guess what I'm trying to say is that I love Nynaeve.

Go for November! Think of the Hapan thread! Courtship, two months later Jedi Eclipse, two months later Dark Journey --- think of the Hapan thread!

 

She'll be first up against the wall come the revolution, comrade!

 

I think there needs to be something acknowledged about Pulp. Pulp fiction was, essentially, textual comic books more than anything else. There was a wide variety of stories during that time including Conan the Barbarian, Doc Savage, and the Weird Tales of Howard Phillips Lovecraft. Lumped in with Pulp, despite not being actually so, are also such comic strip heroes as Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon.

In general Pulp stories are no more fanciful or ridiculous than comic books are meant to be. If you can believe a man can fly then the idea that a Polo player from Yale can lead a revolution on the planet Mongo with a scientist and a generic love interest should not be that hard of a stretch in reverse. The Pulp stories contained fairly decent character development as well with Doc Savage being a well rounded hero with an extraordinarily detailed supporting cast in the Fabulous Four (Plus Pat Savaga a.k.a the World's only Super Scientist/Judo Master Hairdresser).

In Star Wars, I think there's a certain level of fancifulness that needs to be incorporated into the world itself for it to honestly feel like Star Wars. I think of Doctor Who as the best possible comparison. Doctor Who is not a comedy series and it is one of the most shockingly death filled shows on television. However, it also has a lighter tone to contrast against the massive numbers of deaths on screen.

I don't think there isn't room for stories like Shatterpoint and Traitor in Star Wars. However, I also think that the reason the Clone Wars have been so universally accepted is partially because they have that touch of whimsy that was largely absent from the Prequels.

 

I liked this book. A lot.

 

"Kiss my Wookiee" is awesome.

I like Dathomir, and I like seeing more women who can kick butt in Star Wars (One of the things I've always loved about Leia: Leia and Chewie are the only ones never holding the idiot ball throughout the movies.), but I'd be remiss if I didn't notice the unfortunate implications of a lost tribe of Jedi. I personally blame Mormons for the Great Spirit, happy hunting ground, and other Flanderizations of native theology into Crystal Dragon Jesus in the old Westerns.

Yeah, Han and Leia's characterization was atrocious. "Do you love me now?" She would if you hadn't kidnapped her. DumbPANTS.

Who is Warlord Zsinj and why should I care?