Awards 2005 Summer Post-Awards Discussion

When I left the Saga one, it was about half midnight here so I don't know how long it took, but the posts were flying in. I suppose you can only ask people to show some restraint at times.

Thought they were well presented and professionally organised.

I liked the enthusiasm that was shown for all of the work.

I don't particularly agree with banning authors for awards, it would kind of take away from the whole point to me.

I didn't read all of the excerpts, I didn't have a great deal of time but I think they are pretty handy given the rate the boards move at.

 

Maybe to reduce the same authors winning over and over again (not saying that they aren't brilliant authors, the ones who won multiple times) we could ask people to only vote for the same author once each awards, so the majority one author could win is thre times each awards (one for each era)?

 

There's a word limit for posts here? Learn something new.

I remember a couple years go, I think, there was a rule for nomming authors - you could nom a particular author a maximum of five times in each era. I don't know if that really made a difference, though. And I really don't think it's fair to limit people's voting rights - it feels like the awards are being fixed. To me, that's not much different than just outright throwing out some votes that were received.

I mean, if you really wanted to be fair, you'd bring in impartial judges from outside Fan Fic and have them read all the excerpts and decide the winner...but I'm betting most people here don't want that.

 

Maybe to reduce the same authors winning over and over again (not saying that they aren't brilliant authors, the ones who won multiple times) we could ask people to only vote for the same author once each awards, so the majority one author could win is thre times each awards (one for each era)?

I can most definitely see what you're saying, but just because an author has been nominated for a lot of awards, doesn't mean they should be punished for it. An author may be brilliant beyond all measures and are eligible for many categories, but they can't be nominated because of the restriction? I don't think that's very fair. Now, I'm not going to say I don't get annoyed when I see the same name over and over again, which kind of takes the joy out of it all, but I deal with it. It's their wonderful award for writing so well. People chose to vote for that person so if one wants a lesser known author to win, vote for that person. They may not get it right away, but eventually it will catch on. In time that author will get just what he or she deserves and win his or her award. It may get old seeing the same name up there, but it's still something they earned for themselves.

 

Obi_ew, I am one of those people whose award was 'tossed out' in the mad rush of fatigue at the end of the Beyond ceremony.

It didn't feel good. The announcement was easy to miss and/or ignore.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to the hosts and volunteers, who worked very hard and did their best, but the fact that they were working well into the early morning hours is pretty appalling. I know there's no way to put this show on at a time when everybody is working in daylight, but careful consideration needs to be given to choosing the BEST POSSIBLE time for the largest cross-section of board-users. I am not totally convinced that we've found that "best time" yet, particularly since these are international boards.

I attended the entire Beyond ceremony, which was a lot of fun thanks to the volunteers' entertainment, but it was absolutely TOO LONG. If I were "Executive Producer" at future awards, the first thing I would do is speed up the actual presentations, leaving less time in between. The "audience" could still have entertainment, but the sometimes long gaps in between award announcements could be tightened up. Having a "script" for each award presentation ready to go would be the best preparation for this, as well as ensuring that the hosts have fast internet access. The "fun" and more interactive entertainment could perhaps be concentrated in a "party" format at the end of the ceremonies - just as with the Oscars: Couldn't we have a more-or-less straightforward awards ceremony (including 'Congrats' posts) followed by a bigger, more formally organized, entertainment-laden post-awards party thread?

I also agree that having a primary organizer overseeing things would help everyone, especially the hosts.

Through this thread I'm discovering that voting seems to have been rather limited. This devalues the awards, so continuing to brainstorm strategies to improve this situation should, I think, be given high priority. One thing I would consider would be providing a voting list that could be copied into a PM and marked by the voter - make it as easy and obvious as possible for everyone to vote.

Finally, on August 8th in the Etiquette Thread, Alethia posted:

I think the important thing to realize is that the Fan Fiction Awards are just that- Fan Fiction Awards. They're not supposed to mean anything more than to have fun. Some of the most popular fics out there are not the best written and I have seen gems that are widely unappreciated. Winning does not mean that you are the best...Of course, it is nice to win. Winning is fun.

Well said, Alethia.

I truly applaud everyone who writes wonderful fiction on these boards, everyone who was nominated, and each author who won an award or awards. Given the voting, timing, long hours and "hurry up" issues, I'm sad to say that, for me, winning at my first GFFA's was not as much fun as I would have hoped.

My wish is that no one feel this way in future.

 

Jade and VM -- true. I really didn't think about the consequences of a restriction like that and now I can see how that's not a good idea. I guess we'll have to settle for seeing the same name up over and over again and as long as they deserve it (which I'm sure they all do) then I'm fine.

 

in the board that Lt_Jaina_Solo set up dor us, we both sat down and typed up the entire ceremony ahead of time. All we had to do was copy/paste from it.

Has anyone looked at the idea I had on the last page? i think that could help.

 

It's a good idea. The only thing I don't like is that it kind of takes away that little bit of glory the nominees get, because while people are congratulating the winner(s), they might not see the nominee list.

Though, having the noms as a separate list adds one extra minute when posting - that's at least 20 extra minutes, right? Too much? Not too much?

Like having a template, with markups (if desired) included (so category names stand out, or whatever's easiest for the vote counters), and with all the nominees listed under each category? And then people can put a big X next to the name they want?

I wonder if it's possible for someone to create a downloadable version - click on the link, the page opens up for a Word file or what have you, and then you can copy and paste the whole thing into a PM. Or would just a plain template listed in the first post of the excerpt threads be easier?

 

Overall, I think the awards were a success. But like anything there is room for improvement. Based on my observations of the process my recommendations are as follows:

1. Information Thread should be stickied:
This allows important information about nomination, voting, and dates and times for the ceremony to be put in the first post of the thread and easily found.

2. Links, not excerpts
There's no sense in making unnecessary work. Posting links to the nominated stories serves the same function and creates less work and hassle.

3. Length of the ceremony constricted
Six hours is excessive.

4. Only completed stories should be eligible for nomination
While there are many WIP's that are fascinating and well written, I can see no justification for an unfinished work being eligible for an award. Otherwise, it's like the ROTS trailer being up for an award for best picture. It just doesn't make sense.

 

Only completed stories should be eligible for nomination

Hmmm...that could be problematic in that sometimes it can take almost a year for someone to complete a story. Darth RL has a nasty way of slowing down both writing and posting. And in reality, there aren't that many that are done at the times of the awards (at least epic length ones) so that might be difficult. However, you bring up an interesting point. Perhaps a category could be added for Best Completed Fic so that those authors who have toiled over such a long period of time can be recognized? Yes, no, maybe?

 

That would be a nice addition, Rev. But I think that that would have to be for best completed long story (epic and such), but I think that's what you meant.

 

Hmmm...that could be problematic in that sometimes it can take almost a year for someone to complete a story. Darth RL has a way of slowing down both writing and posting. And in reality, there aren't that many that are done at the times of the awards (at least epic length ones) so that might be difficult. However, you bring up an interesting point. Perhaps a category could be added for Best Completed Fic so that those authors who have toiled over such a long period of time can be recognized? Yes, no, maybe?

Perhaps we are looking at this from opposite ends of the spectrum. DRL plagues us all, but I still fail to see how it justifies unfinished works being eligible. "To the victor goes the spoils," or rather in this case to the finished work. Shouldn't the honor go to those who have completed their pieces? It takes nothing away from the hardwork and dedication authors put in to uncompleted stories, it merely delays accolades until an appropriate time.

 

What happenes to the person who's writing an epic? Or someone with a series? Are those categories tossed out because they aren't complete? I've seen stories that are only half finished that are much better written than many complete fics. Why penalize them for not being done in order for a less deserving story to win? And how many fics are completed in a 6 month period or less? I just think limiting them that way would really cause a lot of lost interest in the awards. But that's just my two cents. I did like it when we had completed stories categories included.

 

I don't think that only finished fics should be eligible. It is not at all like looking at a trailer. It's like being half way through a book and realizing that that book has the Best Action you have seen written. My reasoning has nothing to do with DRL. Some people write fics that are over 200,000 words. That takes a long time. If there is a really good action scene in that fic in Summer 2005 but it isn't completed until Summer 2006, it is that much more likely to be forgotten.

They used to have a seperate category for Best IP and Best Completed. That would create a lot more work for the hosts, but it might be a category we should consider bringing back (like we brought back Best Most Underrated).

And bobill- Everything Carrie Fisher said at that show was brilliant. I am merely broadcasting that brilliance to those who missed it

 

I started getting active here just before the nominations process began so maybe I can offer a new voter/reader perspective.

1) The more rules you have for who is and isn't ineligible, the more frustrating it is for voters. I remember seeing the rule that someone couldn't win for Best Author again and thinking, "Well that's nice to know except I have absolutely NO idea who's won before." So it would be nice to know who's ineligible. At some point a list of last winter's winners was posted, which helped a bit with that. But, it's not fair to voters to have a lot of their votes discounted (or authors having to withdraw), simply because they had no way of knowing who couldn't be nominated. It's necessary sometimes, but let's try and keep it to a minimum?

2) I had a good time. The entertainment of the Saga awards was especially good (I liked the mix of art and text), though the amount of posts made it feel a little overwhelming. There was a fun interactive quality to Before and what I went to of Beyond though.

3) I loved the excerpts. They were a great way to get my feet wet on the boards. I read almost all of them and in fact felt kinda guilty for any that I just skimmed. In several cases I thought for sure I knew who I'd vote for but changed my mind after the excepts. They made me procrastinate on writing, but hey, I learned some tips from seeing what a variety of good authors did.

4) I know this is a lot of work, but it might be useful if some/all of the index threads put in dates started/completed. Would help us in finding out what fics we can nomininate.

 

Short and sweet:

1) Keep The excerts - a fantastic way to get new fics.

2) Any Author eligible

3) If a story falls under the cut off dates, it's eligible - don't punish people for being GOOD.

4) Allow plenty of "run up time"...

5) Allow new folks to host with one "Leader"

6) Why not a "temporary board" ala open focus group for the awards?

 

I mean, if you really wanted to be fair, you'd bring in impartial judges from outside Fan Fic and have them read all the excerpts and decide the winner...but I'm betting most people here don't want that.

That's very true. I guess we just have to remember that the Awards are fun, and the best (insert category) isn't necessarily the best fic in the era... but that's not the point of the Awards.

And, hehe, yeah, I've always had a problem with the length of the awards (even the fastest ones just seemed like too much time) so I always just wait until the awards are over and look at the list of winners. Not as dramatic, I guess, but it fulfills the purpose. I saw how the Saga awards were run, and I don't think they can really go faster without cutting out something someone here really likes.

 

That would be a nice addition, Rev. But I think that that would have to be for best completed long story (epic and such), but I think that's what you meant. happy

Yes it is. Thanks for helping me out .

DRL plagues us all, but I still fail to see how it justifies unfinished works being eligible.

You are quite correct. What I meant, and JediJaina more accurately pointed out, sometimes an epic piece is 200,000 words in length and could take considerable time to finish, risking it being forgotten about.

They used to have a seperate category for Best IP and Best Completed. That would create a lot more work for the hosts, but it might be a category we should consider bringing back (like we brought back Best Most Underrated).

Nothing ventured, nothing gained . Well, I believe the more ways we can reward and recognize deserving authors, the better. I think that's what the spirit of the awards are all about .

Since length of the awards is an issue, I wanted to throw something out for the discussion. What if we up the number of noms needed to qualify from 3 to 5, which may decrease the number of stories nominated. While I know this is both good and bad, it might address some of the other concerns people have about length of the show and the work that goes into the whole process by the volunteers.

 

Changing the number of nominees would have no effect on the length of the ceremony, though. It's pretty much all down to the number of posts the hosts make and the length of time between them. I would say that the only real solution is to reduce that interval as much as possible, and that's something only the host can do. [This takes for granted that all the posts are nicely laid out somewhere for the host to copy and paste.] Unless the posts are particularly wordy (which, I'll admit, some entertainment posts were), there's no good reason for more than about two minutes between them.

 

---

Umm, for next time... yes, please make the excerpts shorter. It would help greatly. Also, we (Saga) came up with the idea of making the socks VIPs so it's a) easier to find their posts in a thread (the whole bright colors thingy) and b) when you're doing excerpts, OPPM does not exist.[hr][/blockquote]

I asked about that this time around, and was told it was not possible to VIP the awards socks. I hope the Mods can ask again for the next time, because it would [b]greatly[/b] cut down on the duration of the ceremonies and posting of excerpts.

[blockquote][hr]]I don't know if this has any affect, but I noticed in the Before thread that all the nominees' excerpts from one category were placed into one post. Beyond and Saga, for the larger groups, had them split into posts of 3 or 4 excerpts each. Maybe it would cut down on posting time and OPPM if everything were in one post? Or is reading 11 excerpts in one post too much for people?[hr][/blockquote]

Saga and Beyond: [b]Too much markup![/b] That puts somewhere near 50,000 words on a single page, and the boards time out when you're trying to post/edit. Before is light enough that it doesn't have this problem. The split is for purely technical reasons.

 

Alethia: we had to recount all the noms from the very beginning the last two days. That was a heck of a lot of work. And it should have been unnecessary.
I'm a bit confused... I'm just asking so that future hosts and volunteers can avoid doing this, but why did you have to recount all the noms? And *shudder* I feel for you.

We created a thread at the Awards boards (MiaTiska, this was only for us hosts, which is why no one else knew about it) and kept everything orderly.
Ahhhh. *sigh of relief* Thank you! I was afraid I'd missed something crucial. I know it was your first experience hosting and you were up late, so thank you. Thank you thank you. To you and Gina.

Raven: You couldn't break the boards if you tried. When ROTS came out, we saw over 25,000 posts made in the span of 24 hours with no glitches due to traffic. The servers running the boards have been upgraded a little since then. Further, we're run off the same server farm as IGN, and they get even more posts per day than we do. Any glitches that you saw had nothing to do with the traffic you were creating.
Oh, this is definitely good to know! Thanks for letting us know.

obi_ew: One suggestion may be to pick volunteers who aren't on the other side of the world to host at any rate. I wouldn't want to be up at 3am trying to run an awards.
*nods* That's first how I thought of maybe volunteering to host. I felt so bad when I remembered that it was the middle of the night for Alethia (and maybe Gina too? I don't remember). I'm only one hour ahead of board time so there's not much difference for me.

JediJainaSoloFel: I actually liked the excerpts. I had kinda a system for getting them coded and it really didn't take me all that long, except for the fact that I kept reading them.
Sounds like what would end up happening to me. After counting votes for so long I finally had to start reading a few of the fics to find out what they were about and why so many people were voting for them.

JadeSolo: Though, having the noms as a separate list adds one extra minute when posting - that's at least 20 extra minutes, right? Too much? Not too much?
I think we should stick with having the noms as a separate post during the awards. Otherwise the winner gets sorta trampled over. As long as the hosts keep up the consistent posting every one or two minutes -- perhaps with a bit less entertainment -- I think it'd be okay. I thought the entertainment for Saga was great, don't get me wrong, cause I absolutely loved it... but I was surprised at how much there was. Could've cut down on some of that, perhaps even save some of the entertainment for later as someone suggested.

I wonder if it's possible for someone to create a downloadable version - click on the link, the page opens up for a Word file or what have you, and then you can copy and paste the whole thing into a PM. Or would just a plain template listed in the first post of the excerpt threads be easier?
I think K_D provided a template for voting (or was it noms?), but it was at the end of every era's thread. A Word document would be cool, but I don't think it's necessary; a simple template listed in the first post that you copy and paste into a PM would work fine. Voters don't even have to mark a big "X" next to the ones they want. For voting, an easy thing to do is just copy the Qualifying List and then delete the ones you're not voting for.

Short things:
-Don't get rid of the excerpts, but please do make them shorter -- much shorter -- than 900 words.

-I think the eligibility rules are fine the way they are. As far as I understand them, only a story that's won in a category is ineligible to win in the same category for all future awards.

-The Master List of noms definitely needs to stay posted.

-And again, yes, please -- if there's not a sticky for the awards, then as someone else suggested, a thread that a mod or the

 

Due to illness, I missed all three awards shows so I won't say anything about that. I did read through Before's and I liked the entertainment very much.

However, I was one of those who read every excerpt and voted strictly on the excerpt (not for my friends (sorry guys ) but for the excerpt itself). I also discovered some wonderful stories over in Beyond that I wouldn't ever see otherwise. Please, please, please do not get rid of the excerpts. They are really the best part about this whole thing. Plus, with only having a link to the stories and not the excerpt, some stories are really long and I'd hate to base my decision of the first post of the story - it might be nothing like the rest of the story! I'm always intrigued by what excerpt the author chooses....
You might want to change the length to something smaller - say 700 words total(that would include any author's notes)

As for the awards nominations and eligibility, I would leave the rules as they are now in place. It has taken several awards cycles and these seem to work the best.

Combination of several awards ceremonies in one - runs away screaming. Been there, done that, much prefer it as it is. If you think these award ceremonies were long, oh, my... you have no idea. Leave it alone, please.

As for voting for favorites, I don't know about you but I have several authors I follow and a lot of them were competing against each other. It was a very hard thing to decide and sometimes I had to think about it for quite a while...


Edit since VaderLVR64 mentioned it: as for nomination voting, I vote really early. I have a very busy schedule so I want to make sure I don't forget it.

 

Okay, I'm about to reveal how I vote. Are you ready?

When it comes to nominations, I look at the list and if there is a fic or an author who needs a vote to make it to the voting round, I give them my vote. The more the merrier when it comes to the actual voting. This means that while I may think story A was the "best action" story, if story B needs one more nom to make it to the voting round, I'll give my nom to story B. Why give Story A a nom it doesn't need when I can use my nom to help another story make it to the final round?

Okay, when it comes the actual voting... If I am familiar with the story, I don't bother with the excerpt. If I don't know the story, I'll read the excerpt and if I'm blown away by those 800 words I'll take a peek at the story itself. I go strictly by the story/author I feel best deserves my vote. And when I'm up against another story in a category I STILL cast a vote for one of my competitors because I just feel like it's the right thing to do. I don't skip voting on that category because I'm afraid it will take a vote away from me.

Best author? I already said I have no problem with this being a one-time thing. But I do feel that new author and author categories should be kept exclusive, meaning one author isn't up for both. Why? Because this gives TWO writers a chance to feel that thrill of being named the winner. To me, the new author category is a way to tell a new writer, "Hey, we've seen your work, we're impressed! Welcome to the boards!" And the author category is a way to tell an established author, "You've stuck it out, kept writing great stuff that kept our interest and we want you to know we think you've got a great track record and we look forward to more from you!" I see those awards as being very different, but maybe that's just me.

I agree that the only way to make the shows shorter is to decrease the time between the announcement of the nominees and the winner. Chatting was mentioned, but I REALLY think a lot of that was going on because we were all waiting to hear who the winner was. And when you put a bunch of writers in front of a keyboard with nothing to read, they're gonna write!

 

Oh might as well say how I vote. I look at the nomonies and if a story I read is one of them I vote for it. Simple as that. If all the nomonies are stories I'v never read I check out the exercpts. A quick check. Then vote.
Thats all I do, oh and I agree with VaderLvr about the times. (last paragraph)