A NON-FLAMING Gary Kurtz discussion.

Ideally, Lucas would have his own commentary track on all the films, and everyone else would be on another track ( or several other tracks ).

 

I wouldn't mind hearing Kurtz' thoughts on the OT as a commentary track, but I severely doubt he's gonna be able to do one without flogging the dead horse of how he would've done things better...if they can do one where he sticks to the film and doesn't self-promote relentlessly, then I'm all for it. As a producer for ANH and ESB, the guy made a noteworthy contribution to SW that I'd like to hear about. Sadly, he just seems too bitter these days

I've met Kurtz a number of times at Conventions, and he is the OPPOSITTE of bitter, he's so calm and pleasant. And when he talks about the movies he's always talking about the contributors - Freeborn, Barry, Taylor etc. he talks about the movies as a collaborative process.
When he's asked about ROJ or the PT he gives his honest opinions, but I've also heard him say that it's George's decision and that's okay.

Yes he did f argue against Lucas's change of direction for ROJ, why shouldn't he, he believed in the version which was planned out in '78. He could've bit his lip and said "Sure George, whatever you want." but he had the integrity to say what he believed . And i respect that.

I really would love to hear him on the commentary track. Lucas has obviously SE'd his own memory, so it'd be nice to get a more varied and honest opinion from the likes of Kurtz and Marcia Lucas.

g

 

I'm sure Kurtz wishes he was more influencial in that regard, but the reason Lucas fired him is because Lucas needed a producer, not a collaborator (and yes, he was fired, though the official word is he was "not invited back for Return of the Jedi".)

How do you know he was fired? From what he's said in interviews it was a mutal thing between him and Lucas. He wasn't too happy about the way the series was going with the Ewoks etc.

 

I must admit, gezvader28, I can only frame my opinion from the interviews that Kurtz has given. And he just always tends to return to criticizing Lucas and the way SW went post-Kurtz in those *shrugs*

Like I say, I'd like to hear this thoughts. I certainly don't think he's the 'honesty' compared to Lucas, thought. I'd much more expect a preferential spin from both guys.

 

I wouldn't mind hearing his thoughts, maybe as part of a larger group commentary, on the first two Star Wars movies.

I don't know if Kurtz was a big player behind the scenes or not, but when he talks about how Lucas wanted things and how he disagreed it rings of truth. Lucas has much strength as a producer and a director, but, at least as far as I can gather, his big weakness is he doesn't know or acknowledge his weak points. He wants things his way and gets rid of people who disagree, and that isn't always the best for the movie. I give him a lot of Credit for coming up with Star Wars and Indiana Jones, but it seems like the more power Lucas has the less I like the movie. He needs someone to keep him in check, to maximize the best parts of his talent and minimize the worst. I don't know if Kurtz did that in ANH and ESB, but somebody did.

 

thank you everyone for keeping things civil, this thread is going great! i never took kurtz' critisism of lucas as bitter, but just very straight and diplomatic. i never believed that lucas had the entire story planned out, simply because hes said in interviews that he makes stuff up as he goes along, and there are way too many contradicting quotes from him that kinda make me question him. kurtz might do the same thing, who knows, but hes valuble as someone who witnessed the begining and origins of the star wars galaxy.

and btw, for all you kurtz haters, three words....the dark crystal. this conversation is over. hehe.

 

I get the feeling that if I say anything positive about Gary Kurtz (as in, his contribution to SW) what people will hear is "LLS hates Lucas!"

I'm going by my experience when I tried to give some credit to Kershner for ESB.

It's impossible to give ALL the credit to one man on a project as big as Star Wars. Kurtz is a part of the HISTORY of SW and I'd love to hear what he has to say, which is not to say that his perspective is the final word, just that he was a witness to the early days of two great movies that we all seem to obsess over.

I think his comments would be interesting. I wonder if he's ever thought about writing a book.

 

...i agree with you LLS...

 

I'm not gonna say that I don't like "post Kurtz" Star Wars, but if you say it's not notably different than you're just kidding yourself. I read an Gary Kurtz interview did with Chris Gore, and I think he put his finger on one of the biggest problems in the PT. The "de-mythologization" of the force. It goes from this religious and archetypical entity in the OT, to being something that deals with blood and dna. Along with Luke, we learned about the force in the OT. In the PT, we're just told, like Kurtz says, that the Jedia and the force are great and amazing, but we don't see it. IMO the OT (in which ROTJ rides on the coat-tails of ANH and ESB) had a more epic feel than the PT.

 

WOW!! This Kurtz/Lucas thing is all new to me. I've heard rumblings of Kurtz not liking the prequals but not all this!

It would be nice to hear from him on the commentaries just because he was so involved. I love hearing about where some ideas came from, some technical f/x stuff, the difficulty with R2 just to get a 3 second shot..... that kind of stuff and I'm sure he could add so much. That's what I like to hear, not the personal garbage.

On a side note, I would give my left arm to see a small documentary on disc 4 just on the model making, that stuff is amazing.

 

i think jurtz understands somethings about star wars better than lucas does.

they are both wonderful creators, but lucas should know that kurtz's input on IV and V were a big part of the reason why they were classics, and the rest were just memorable films.

 

No offence to the guy, but I would REALLY LOVE to have Rick McCallum NOT appear on any of the commentary tracks for future Star Wars DVDs. I really don't need some guy telling me "gee isn't this special effect shot so great?" when a) it's plainly obvious to me that it is great and b) most of his "insider" information is stuff that can be worked out by simple observation or merely looking at the other documentaries on the DVD.

Sorry Rick, but you gotta tell us something we DON'T know. Please.

 

He needs someone to keep him in check, to maximize the best parts of his talent and minimize the worst. I don't know if Kurtz did that in ANH and ESB, but somebody did.

He did. There is a myth out there that a Producer is merely a budget man, but as I've heard on numerous commentaries, a Producer is much, much more. He's the creative second in command to the Director. The Producer even takes over shoots when the Director is away shooting other parts of the film. They share the burden of the making of the movie. They also come up with and put forward their own creative ideas for the movie. So yes, Kurtz had a big part in the actual making of both ANH and ESB. If anything, Kurtz was closer to Lucas, both on a friendship and a creative basis, than Kershner was. Kershner was just a hired Director, but Kurtz was on the project from day one.

He was also not a "yes man" like McCallum seems to be. I do get the feeling that if Lucas said he wanted pink fluffy elephants in Ep. III, then McCallum would say, "Yes Sir, that would be so excellent for the plot!!!", whereas Kurtz would tell Lucas that he needed a looong rest.

i never believed that lucas had the entire story planned out, simply because hes said in interviews that he makes stuff up as he goes along, and there are way too many contradicting quotes from him that kinda make me question him.

Kurshner and I think even Hammil have contradicted Lucas about there not being Ep. VII to IX/XII, as well as Kurtz.

Lucas has also contradicted his own OT in the PT, which has led to some rather annoying continuity errors. So yes, despite what the Lucas fanatics out there adamantly claim, Lucas does make things up as he goes along, which makes him goof-up badly on continuity from time to time.

I'm not gonna say that I don't like "post Kurtz" Star Wars, but if you say it's not notably different than you're just kidding yourself. I read an Gary Kurtz interview did with Chris Gore, and I think he put his finger on one of the biggest problems in the PT. The "de-mythologization" of the force. It goes from this religious and archetypical entity in the OT, to being something that deals with blood and dna. Along with Luke, we learned about the force in the OT. In the PT, we're just told, like Kurtz says, that the Jedia and the force are great and amazing, but we don't see it. IMO the OT (in which ROTJ rides on the coat-tails of ANH and ESB) had a more epic feel than the PT.

Whilst watching the PT, I sometimes feel as if I'm watching a waaay out edition of Diagnosis Murder, than I do a Star Wars film. Sometimes I half expect ol' Dick Van Dyke to pop up to solve the mystery for us!

 

I read that Gary Kurtz was against Vader being Luke's father.

This puts an end any points I can give him for creativity.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I'd love to hear commentary from a man NOT
still getting checks from George Lucas. His
insight would be refreshing.

Also, an earlier post mentioned Marcia Lucas
(Or whatever her last name is now). As she was
a major influence on the OT as an editor, her
views would be great as well. However, given the
circumstances of the Lucas' divorce, it'll be a
cold day on Tatooine before that happens.

 

MatthewZ
Registered: Sep 03
Date Posted: 4/14 10:09am Subject: RE: A NON-FLAMING Gary Kurtz discussion.
It amazes me that Lucas the visionary, creator, and driving force behind the entire Star Wars saga gets a bum rap, but hacks like Kurtz, Kersner and Marquard are worshiped like gods. These people have gone on to do nothing. If it wasn't for Lucas and Star Wars they would have never done anything in the first place.


So MATTHEW, lemme get this stragiht ... you imply that Kersh had no directing career or options after EMPIRE? Geez, the guy was all set to do the REAL version of I ROBOT based on a Harlan Ellison script (which was published in book form in the early 90s and would have been one of the BEST SF films ever made), until Warner ****ed over Ellison and he. Kershner had done some seriously good work pre-EMPIRE (I recommend you see A FINE MADNESS or LOVING, which are from the 60s and 70s, and there is a cop movie from the 50s he did that was superb, something like STAKEOUT ON DOPE ST I think) and in case you weren't aware, the dude is pretty old, so it ain't like he'd be scrambling from one job to the next anyway.

Marquand died young, but he still managed to do a good thriller (was it JAGGED EDGE?) that made money in the late 80s, and had EYE OF THE NEEDLE before his unfortunate association with Lucas.

I don't even see why Kurtz needs defending; the guy is clearly the voice of reason with respect to SW, since the films he worked on are the only ones worth rewatching.
Not saying SW and EMP are top of the top by a long shot, but they are WAY ahead of whatever happens to be in 3rd place in the SW universe. And I loved Kurtz' RETURN TO OZ film, which is a great example of how a film with heart can work (even if it didn't succeed financially) despite the best efforts of a studio to subvert and destroy its own product.

Your claim that these folks wouldn't have gone on to anything without an association with GL is, plain-out, stupid and wrong. They each had careers already, careers that demonstrated the ability to make good films and films that made money, but I've seen little indication that doing SW opened any doors for them.

So what is YOUR criteria for this 'hack' claim? It better be a good one, otherwise the only 'hack' (outside of GL perhaps) being mentioned in this thread is YOU for churning out unsupported GL propaganda.

No profanity.

 

Who's up for a Dreamcatcher marathon??

 

^If that is supposed to be a response, it doesn't register. You're claiming Kasdan has had no career highs since EMP, either? I guess you never saw SILVERADO or, for all its flaws, THE BIG CHILL.
Next, I guess we'll find out from you about 'hacks' like Darabont, who after doing YoungIndy work, churned out what you will doubtless claim was mindless crap, you know, like SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION.

So you remain convinced GL was only hiring know-nothing no-talent 'hacks' (and I'm waiting to see how you put Leigh Brackett in that category, since she wrote some awesome Bogart/Bacall movies and John Wayne movies for Howard Hawks, as well as THE LONG GOODBYE for Altman) ... folks who had nowhere to go after their association with GL and would have had no career without his noticing them?

 

Actually of all the movies you've mentioned Shawshank is the only one I've seen. Some I've never even heard of. I just did a report on Shawshank for school. Good movie, a bit heavy handed. How come nobody aged in 20 years?? What does Darbount have to do with Star Wars anyway? Question #2, what else has he done?

Kershner, Kadsan, Marquand, Kurtz.....the defining moment of all their careers is working on Star Wars. As the years go by everything else they've worked on will fade away. Sounds like some of it already has.

 

Well, let's see, Darabant was approached by GL about writing the prequel trilogy, but didn't wind up doing it (this was when it seemed likely Joe Johnston was going to be directing the prequels, in the mid-90s.)

Darabont has been nominated for a couple or three oscars, wrote some of the better YoungIndys and acted as writer/director on THE MAJESTIC as well as THE GREEN MILE and SHAWSHANK. He was tapped to write & direct the remake of FORBIDDEN PLANET (ironically, right after Kershner stepped out from the project, shortly before THAT remake also folded up ... yet another example of Jim Cameron saying he wanted to executive produce something, and then the film not happening.) Currently Darabont is writing and directing FARHENHEIT 451 (if you're not aware of what THIS project is about, then you're not well-read enough for me to even bother correcting, you're just a lost cause.)

I'm pretty sure GL also approached Kasdan about the prequel writing, though I imagine Kasdan would have had no interest, just based on how he got stuck connecting the dots for GL on JEDI. Defining moment for Kasdan would have been BODY HEAT or SILVERADO or BIG CHILL or maybe even RAIDERS or CONTINENTAL DIVIDE, but I sure wouldn't include his SW work anywhere near any of those ... it'd rank below GRAND CANYON.

A FINE MADNESS is my favorite Kersh movie, WAY above EMPIRE ... EMPIRE is not his worst, that would be ROBOCOP 2, a show where the studio seriously messed with the product, so I'm not sure if all the blame is his ...

With Kurtz, I'd take OZ over the SW flicks, and I even find SLIPSTREAM to be a very interesting failure. Not a good movie, but there are way too many good ideas in it to dismiss entirely, sort of like some early 70s sci fi pics (maybe like THX, come to think of it!)

Okay, so now i've named a bunch of movies you admittedly don't know diddly about. Maybe I'll consider YOUR opinion with a bit more respect once you've done some homework on the careers of these people you are so busy dismissing as hacks. Then again, maybe not. It takes a big person to admit it when they are talking out of a rear orifice, and I only see a big mouth on you, not a big mind.

 

Keep it civil, guys.

 

I suppose I ought to review what this forum's idea of flaming is.

But I've always felt that, regardless of a board's posting rules, a poster doing some half-assed character assassination on the contributions of industry professionals is at least a magnitude more offensive than taking said poster to task for displaying such idiocy.

I'll take my warning or ban sunny-side up, thanks.

Farewell!

 

...well said Kirkout...

...btw, the criteria for being labeled a flamer is showing the slightest hint of passion when typing about a given subject. Have an opinion, but try and keep it quiet. And if its an opinion that questions any of Lucas' ideas then you'd better shout it from another forum then run like hell...

...they dont like that kind of talk in these here parts...

 

Well it looks like your dream is going to come true. In May 2005 your hero Big Frank's Mission Impossible 3 is going head to head with some bum named Lucas. Lets sit and see who comes out on top.

I'll take wagers.