Abortion Laws: Pro Life or Pro Choice(v2)?

Living on the streets is not a terminal illness. Most people pick themselves up either with help or not and move on to fruitful lives.

And you base this on.......??

Personal experience?

Statistics? Let's see them, please.

Peace,

V-03

 

I'm curious, where do you pro-lifers stand in cases of rape or incest?

 

Very good question.

I have a serious problem with someone dictating what's best for a woman he's never met.

 

I have a serious problem with someone dictating what's best for a woman he's never met.

I have a serious problem with someone who supports the right of a woman to kill her children.

 

Nobody is supporting that, Jediflyer. If they were, you'd see "Free Andrea Yates" signs here.

People are supporting the right of a woman to dictate whether or not she has children in the first place--the right to dictate what does and does not happen inside her body.

 

People are supporting the right of a woman to dictate whether or not she has children in the first place--the right to dictate what does and does not happen inside her body.

I agree with that right. However, I consider an embryo a child.

Now I'll throw it back to you.

 

Throw all you want. I don't consider an embryo a child, and never will.

I will never consider an embryo a "child" until it has reached the point where it can survive outside the mother's body, even with the aid of machines. Until then, it is an embryo, a fetus, a clump of cells, whatever--but it is not a child. A child is a separate being.

 

A_G

http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/development4.shtml

and

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/scienceabortion.html

also

-edit-

This ones just to be fair, the other pov.

http://www.scientists4pr.org/abortion1.htm

 

"Abortion is a deeply emotional issue that divides the nation. This site is not here to tell the reader what to believe and feel, only to provide information and a perspective that is seldom shown in the media or heard in mainstream conversation.
Think of it this way- what is the best way to learn about abortion? To actually witness an abortion first hand or to work in a clinic. The second best thing is to read verified eye-witness accounts from people who are current and former abortion providers.
These quotes have been tracked down from a number of sources, from the research of pro-choice author Magda Denes to the Washington Post to other magazines."

http://clinicquotes.topcities.com/

 

Abortion doesn't empower women, it hurts them.

Physically:
Abortion Malpractice
Stories of abortion malpractice and botched abortions, maternal injuries and deaths from abortion.
http://realchoice.0catch.com/abmal.htm

Abortion Mortality
Legalization was supposed to stop women from dying.
http://realchoice.0catch.com/collateraldamage.htm

Midtown Hospital's Patient Records
An audit of patient records shows illegal late abortions, malpractice, and general mistreatment of women at this reputable hospital
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/archives/blmidtownpatients.htm

Christi's Choice
http://abortiontv.com/AbortionsGoneWrong.htm

"Safe Abortion Stories"
www.legalactionforwomen.org/stories.html

The following are actual documented cases of women killed or injured by abortion.
www.lovematters.com/unsafe.htm


Emotionally:
Women's Stories About Their Abortions
http://clinicquotes.topcities.com/Womens_Stories.html

Stories from Women who've had abortions:
Stories of emotional healing after their abortion
http://afterabortion.com/sharing.html

Regrets of Women Who've had an Abortion
http://www.gargaro.com/regrets.html

Women's Abortion Stories
"Because women who are feeling distressed after an abortion often feel they cannot openly discuss their feelings, many suffer alone, wrongly believing they must be the ?only one? who has ever felt this way.
The following stories have been sent to Abortion Concern by women who have experienced difficulties or distress after their abortions."
http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php


Abortion...one dead, one wounded


"It is sad that in order to be suceesful, a woman must lay her body down on the abortion table, experience an invasive procedure, and have her off-spring killed."-Anon.

 

Fwiffo: Your links don't change the fact that an embryo in the first trimester is not viable outside the womb.

ladyrebel: People die from many, many other procedures, from chemotherapy to plastic surgery to childbirth itself. Do you want to outlaw those as well? How about driving cars?

 

A_G

Abortion legal or illegal hurts women. Both illegal and legal stories were featured.

The difference is that for other medical procedures doctor's inform their patients of the risks, and the process of the procedure. Due to politics of the abortion debate, and political interest that is not always the case with abortion. Also, as a result to pro-choice lobbying, abortion is the most unregulated medical procedure in the U.S.

 

A_G

from: http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/us_stats_gestation_procedure.asp

Total Abortions by weeks in 1995 (sorry I couldnt find more current data):

<= 8
340,109

9-10
142, 893

11-12
67,392

13-15
38,364

16-20
27,411

21 =>
8,862

Were all the bolded ones acceptable?

 

The difference is that for other medical procedures doctor's inform their patients of the risks, and the process of the procedure.

Uhh...that's required of every doctor. Simple mole removal to abortion. They still tell their patients what's going to happen and the risks of it. Otherwise I'd call that malpractice.

 

"Uhh...that's required of every doctor. Simple mole removal to abortion. They stil tell their patients what's going to happen and the risks of it. Otherwise I'd call that malpractice."

Ah, and in addition to the above thought, doctors must also tell their patient of alternative options for treatment.

Yet, women aren't always informed in the case of abortion due to the politics of the debate. In fact, pro-choice organizations have been fighting informed consent laws that require such information.

 

Ah, and in addition to the above thought, doctors must also tell their patient of alternative options for treatment.

Chances are if a woman is opening her legs for an over-grown vac she's gonna go through with it.

Yet, women aren't always informed in the case of abortion due to the politics of the debate. In fact, pro-choice organizations have been fighting informed consent laws that require such information.

Or they've come to their own conclusions? Oh, I forgot about the secret conspiracy to kill our nation's potential youth.

 

"Chances are if a woman is opening her legs for an over-grown vac she's gonna go through with it."

Yet, that is an assumption, not a fact.

"Or they've come to their own conclusions? Oh, I forgot about the secret conspiracy to kill our nation's potential youth."

There own conslusions about what?
I never implied that or said that. Please don't put words in my mouth, next time I'll take it to KW.

 

Also, both A_G, and a bone to RebelLady....

from: http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/abortion_and_death_statistics.asp

If all causes of maternal death, other than those associated with live birth i.e., abortion, tubal pregnancy, molar pregnancy, etc., were excluded. . . . "the maternal mortality for 1985 would be 4.7 deaths per 100,000 live births.""Induced Termination of Preg . . . ," Council on Scientific Affairs, AMA; JAMA, Dec. 9, ?92, Vol. 268, No. 22, p. 3231 147

And now, Death B y Abortion:
These have been grossly under-reported. The expose? on this is detailed inLime 5 published by Life Dynamics. The author and his staff have verified 23 deaths from induced abortion in 1992-93. All were reported to state agencies. There is documentation from state health departments that 18 were reported to the Federal Center for Disease Control. However, the official report of the CDC listed only 2 deaths. "At Life Dynamics we knew abortion complications were grotesquely under-reported, but attributed it to garden-variety bureaucratic incompetence." But after continuing research, they documented "that the flawed abortion data from the CDC was not from ineptitude but of dishonesty and manipulation" after finding that "a large percentage of CDC employees had direct ties to the abortion industry," they retitled the CDC to stand for "Center for Damage Control" ? "The CDC doesn?t oversee abortion, it justifies it."


continuing....
Bleeding is common. Most get by, but some need blood transfusions. The Stallworthy study (above) reported that 9.5% needed transfusions. Most recent studies are reporting smaller percentages.

Are blood transfusions a cause of death in abortions?


Yes, and these deaths are never associated directly nor reported as statistics related to abortions. Here is how this works: First, we must know how many women need blood transfusions after getting induced abortions. These figures are hard to come by. The only controlled studies are from university medical enters, which do only a small fraction of all abortions. Over 90% of abortions in the U.S. and varying percentages in other nations are done in free-standing abortion chambers where the medical care is only a faint shadow of the ompetence of those medical centers. Women who hemorrhage from these abortions are sent to "real" hospitals for transfusions and surgery. The percentage who need transfusions then must remain an estimate as these commercial establishments do not report this. How many then? Let?s be conservative and say that one in every hundred needs a blood transfusion. If there are 1,600,000 abortions annually in the United States, this means that 1% or 16,000 women were transfused.


Viral hepatitis is transmitted in up to 10% of patients transfused. Ten percent of 16,000 is 1,600 women. Amer. Assn. Blood Banks and Amer. Red Cross, Circular Information, 1984, p. 6


An analysis of 300,000 cases of Hepatitis virus infection showed that deaths occurred from three causes:


322 from acute disease, 5100 from cirrhosis, and 1200 from liver cancer. This mortality rate is over 2%.


Two percent of 1600 women means that ultimately 32 deaths result annually from abortions for this reason. AIDS is another threat. Two percent of AIDS has been acquired by blood transfusions. With recent careful screening techniques, this is now much less. Even so, 200-400 people in developed countries, per year, are still being exposed via blood transfusions....

Apart from deliberate mis-reporting to mask abortion death, are there others innocently missed?


Yes. For instance:


- Consider the mother who hemorrhaged, was transfused, got hepatitis, and died months later. Official cause of death, Hepatitis. Actual cause, abortion.


- A perforated uterus leads to pelvic abscess, sepsis (blood poisoning), and death. The official report of the cause of death may list pelvic abscess and septicemia. Abortion will not be listed.


- Abortion causes tubal pathology. She has an ectopic pregnancy years later and dies. The cause listed

 

Yet, that is an assumption, not a fact.

Perhaps I should assume women are ignorant?

There own conslusions about what?

What have we been discussing?


I never implied that or said that. Please don't put words in my mouth, next time I'll take it to KW.

Said what? You've implied that women are ignorant about abortion and other options instead of it. I'm not quite naive enough to believe that they get abortions out of ignorance. Sure there may be some, but I'm guessing it's very little. The last part was all in fun. Now next time you threaten to go to KW I will.


To Fwiffo:

I'm really going to believe these people?

 

Pro-choice political interest groups shouldn't interfer in the doctor's requirements of giving their patient specific information about the abortion procedures.

"Said what? You've implied that women are ignorant about abortion and other options instead of it."

You mis-understood me. I have said that doctors are should be and are required for any medical procedure to inform their patient of the risks, procedure process, and alternative treatments without political interference (and this includes abortion). Yet this is not the case due to pro-choice lobbying against informed consent laws.

To wrap it up:
Abortion still remains the most un-regulated medical procedure in the U.S. due to the politics of the abortion debate.
Doctors are should be and are required for any medical procedure to inform their patient of the risks, procedure process, and alternative treatments without political interference (and this includes abortion).

 

I've never implied that. You assumed that. What I did imply was that doctors are should be and are required for any medical procedure to inform their patient. The reference to informed decision was strictly in the doctor informing patient sense.

Like I said, they already do this. You want them to go the extra mile and say, "Don't do this, you don't know what you're doing. Here's our big book of alternatives 'adoption, adoption adoption,' I don't think that'll quite work too well in practice.

If I feel it's offensive (whether or not in fun) I have a right to take it to a mod.

Wah, take it to a mod. Last I checked heavy sarcasm wasn't a bannable offense.

Yet, pro-choice political interest groups shouldn't interfer in the safety of legalize abortion.

 

Fire-Ice-Death

Err, where did that link come from? I have no clue.

 

Those are the people who host the site you keep putting up about abortion "facts".


Let's see some of what the pro-"life" movement reads, shall we?

Oh here's a gem.

Sing a little louder

A moving first-person story of Christians who ignored the plight of the Jews in Nazi Germany. Drawing a direct parallel to today's abortion epidemic, this 3 1/2" x 8 1/2" tri-fold is an effective tool to call churches to action.

Planned Parenthood: It's not what you think

Here's the inside scoop on Planned Parenthood's shocking agenda for our children. This 3 1/2" x 8 1/2" tri-fold exposes the truth by using excerpts from the organization's own material.

I guess that conspiracy theory I put out there wasn't so bad after all. There are really people who have them.

Abortion as your option

A non-threatening approach that offers facts to women contemplating abortion.

My, how compelling. I'd hate to see what their threatening approach would be. How's a pop-out book of knives seem?

And this little guilt trip.

For men only

Many babies could be saved if the father would realize that this unborn baby about to be aborted is a living, growing human being. Explains all of the current abortion methods and complications and includes a brief fetal development section. Lists emergency pregnancy hotlines and resources for fathers. Excellent for sidewalk counseling.

I'm not saying these books have no merit, but the agenda behind them would make anyone that actually thinks about the sudject a little wary before reading them.

 

"Like I said, they already do this. You want them to go the extra mile and say, "Don't do this, you don't know what you're doing. Here's our big book of alternatives 'adoption, adoption adoption,' I don't think that'll quite work too well in practice."

No, not all abortion providers are practicing these expectations (abortion politics).
Read these women's stories:
http://clinicquotes.topcities.com/Womens_Stories.html

Informed consent is just as what I said on the previous page: the procedure process, the risks, and the alternatives.

"Wah, take it to a mod. Last I checked heavy sarcasm wasn't a bannable offense."

Note: I had changed my mind and edited it out long before you responded.

 

No, not all abortion providers aren't practicing these expectations. Informed consent is just as what I said on the previous page: the procedure process, the risks, and the alternatives.


How do you know that NO doctor does this? Hmm...? I'd like to see this, other than the ignorance claim.

ignorance =/= dumb/rude

ignorance = not knowing

To be fair you may be right, there are probably some doctors out there that do not do that. I also think you're giving women less credit than you should. I'd think anyone going to an abortion would at least glance at the alternatives.


Note: I had changed my mind and edited it out long before you responded.

So noted.


As to that site...*shakes head* testimonaials, nice, but like adverts with them, they're not really trustworthy.


Here is one letter that abortiontv(a pro-life educational website) recently recieved.

"I came across your website because I wanted to know what went on while I was unconscious during my abortion. I was appalled to find out the things that I did and to see the pictures that I saw. the doctor who did my abortion told me that my baby was just a piece of tissue at 8 weeks old and I believed him. I was 15 years old, I thought that I was making the right decision. I was wrong and now I feel so bad. Patients should be told of what the doctors are doing. If I had know that they were going to rip my precious baby into a bunch of different part I would never have done what I did. If someone had told me or if I had seen this website earlier I would not have had an abortion."

Yes, this can really be trusted.