Apollo Creed...too cocky?

Legitimate point. Overstatement on my part. Except for the Post Medieval era, East Asia was Humanity's dominant point of civilization.

Thermopylae was not necessarily the impressive battle per-se, as much as Marathon or Platea were. Both of those battle showed very well just how superior Greek style of military force was to the Persians.

And, btw, I think dividing Persia and Greece strictly along East/West lines is a false dichotomy really. Greece was more like the outskirts of the societies that had evolved along the fertile crescent. You make it sound as though it was the equivalent of China invading Rome out of nowhere, when it fact it was simply a war between two governments who really operated within the same geopolitical realm.

Although "Who are the Spartans?" was a classic put down.

 

Finally, someone in this thread that understands what the movies were about (at least the first two).

 

You talking Holmes vs Cooney, specifically? When one fighter is specifically known as "The Great White Hope," I don't think I'm inserting anything. If it wasn't racialized, then why is he the hope of only one specific race? Don King played a huge role in doing this (unlike the claims people through thoughtlessly at Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, he really was purposefully creating racial tension here for his own gain), and he's despicable for that fact. But I don't think you can deny there was public buy-in.

I never said there was anything racial about it. I said in it's inception/inspiration, it was basically a re-imagining of a highly racialized sporting event, which you acknowledge. I went on to say I like the movie less than I otherwise would because of that fact. That's the only two things I've ever really said.

We're talking about the inspiration of the film. The pretty widely acknowledged inspiration. I'm quite aware of the synopsis.

NIAWYC. On both counts.

But I was using "West" really, as a code word for "Europe." Because as much as Classical civilization owes to Egypt and Babylon/Akkad/Assyria/Persia, in practice you never hear about those contributions, and people tend to want to dissociate the two. I think in the popular conception, there's this notion of Greece and Rome somehow wildly disconnected from the movers and shakers in the rest of the Mediterranean until it started to subjugate them. Certainly, I think, that was the operational assumption of the film 300, one of my many problems with it.

If by East Asia, you're trying to imply "China," I'd disagree. While certainly very significant, they were also highly insular. And that besides, it ignores a lot of important contributions from plenty of places in-between.

 

The inspiration for the film had nothing to do with a great white hope, or anything racial.

The inspiration for the film came when Sly Stallone, stumped for ideas, attended the famous Muhammad Ali vs. Chuck Wepner title fight. He was fascinated by the concept of a no-name boxer going up against the reigning champion, and going the distance against all odds.

The racial themes in the original movie centered around the racist nature of Mick Goldmill, and other characters in the movie. Of course, this idea was eventually scrapped.

Even with the original themes of racism, the concept of the "Great White Hope" going up against the black World Heavyweight Champion and winning the title back, or going the distance, or whatever, is virtually non-existent. Completely different premise, totally unrelated.

 

[image=http://www.urbanhonking.com/medschool/archives/faceface.JPG]
"I'm gonna bust you up."

"Go for it."

 

I said dominant point. I didn't say "only place on Earth where it existed."

Nothing on the level of the scale, accomplishment, and advancement of the Chinese existed anywhere else in the world after the fall of Rome. The closest were the Islamic states and Byzantium.

 

Well yeah, but that ignores all the significant stuff going on before the rise of Rome.

 

I loved it when I could come on here and have awesome and funny nerd humor before this place became the Senate Lite.

 

Are you still crying?

*slaps EBB*

 

Guys Apollo wouldn't want us to fight except for in the ring

 

'Get up outta that chair and let's finish it. No one goes to the distance with me!' 'Is he serious?'

<[-]> Saber

 

Have to agree. I think you're tying yourself in knots there anyway, Jabba-wocky. You're seeing ghosts; it's like you want to localize racism somewhere. (Well, if that's the case, I know some other places where you can look -- man.)

 

George Bush doesn't care about black people.

 

Bush is the Great White Dope.

 

I'm not. I would stand by, unflinchingly, and hope you agree, that anything even inspired by the kind of dynamics that even vaguely approach what went in on in the run-up to Holmes vs Cooney is repulsive. I'd heard from several sources I thought reputable (eg once in documentary of that fight) that the Rocky series was such a case, and judging by EBB's earlier posts, he's heard something to the same effect before as well.

As it turns out, I was incorrect. If it was in fact based on Ali v. Wepner, I have no problem with it. I retract my earlier statements in this thread, as they were based on an incorrect understanding of the origin of the film.

 

EDIT: The simple fact is, there's just not enough evidence, in-film or otherwise, to conclude that the whole great white hope idea was in any way related to the inspiration for Rocky.