ST Are there too many implausible coincidences in TFA?

Beside finding Rey in SKB the rest of the coincidence are not that far fetched to me.
However bumping into Rey in SKB was kind of ridiculous. It's like saying "you need to find someone that is somewhere in Earth and by the way you also have to turn down the shields that is also somewhere in Earth...Good luck boy..." and to make matters worse they only had a few minutes to accomplish it.

 

These are not implausible coincidences. Princess Leia was trying to return the Death Star plans to Obi-Wan Kenobi so it is perfectly plausible for the two droids escape pod to land on the part of the planet close-ish to where Obi-Wan Kenobi was, and hence also close to Luke Skywalker, who was being watched his whole life by Obi-Wan. The droids do not land in Luke Skywalker's backyard. They land miles away and are taken to the Skywalker residence by scavengers. The Skywalker residence should logically be reasonably close by, given that Princess Leia had Obi-Wan Kenobis' coordinates, the Tantive IV was presumably, logically above the part of the planet where Obi-Wan was, and she was about to visit him herself before the Star Destroyer captured her. The original faulty astromech droid is not necessary to the story. George Lucas could have just written that Owen chose R2 straight away. That moment in the film adds nothing and is more of an additional eccentricity on the part of the director, rather than a coincidence.

This is NOT a coincidence. And I'm sick of people saying it was. You say, they "just happen" to go to Tatooine. Tatooine has no prior history with these characters. It's just a random planet. There is no coincidence there.

Its like your car breaking down and someone towing you to the nearest service station (which is one of a million service stations on planet Earth) and claiming that you "just happened" to end up at that particular service station, which is a million to one shot. If you were on the other side of Earth and the same thing happened to you, then you'd end up at another service station and that would also be a million to one. In fact, EVERY service station is a million to one shot.

It is not a coincidence to come across Anakin and the reason it's not a coincidence is because they weren't looking for him. If Anakin just happened, by chance, to be Qui-Gon's long lost son, then yes, it would be an amazing coincidence that he found his son by pure chance. But Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had no prior knowledge of Anakin. They were just two random people that Anakin came across in his life at that time. We all come across random people in our life and sometimes these encounters result in lifelong friendships. Those aren't coincidences, because we have no prior knowledge of those people, they have no connection to us and we are not seeking them out. They are just events that lead to other events.

There was nothing particularly noteworthy about the "time" Anakin was found. It wasn't as if he "needed" to found that day for some reason and as luck would have it, he was found. No, he could have been "found" when he was 4, or 5, or 10, or 18, or 20 years of age. The fact that he was the chosen one indicates that he was destined to bring balance to the force, but HOW he would bring that balance and WHEN he would do it were not pre-determined. It was just a set of random, non-coincidental events that led to him leaving the planet. Yes, as Qui-Gon said, it was the "will of the force", to eventually find Anakin, but that doesn't mean he had to be found that day at that time.

Anakin could have been found at Gardulla The Hutt's residence when he was 3, and taken to the Jedi temple and trained at a more appropriate age and then he would have brought balance to the force and never turned into Darth Vader. That would have been the will of the force, too.

The Force Awakens, on the other had has ridiculous, stupid coincidences all over the place. The Phantom Menace did not.

Oh come on! Rey's droid, BB8, has the map to Luke Skywalker. And Rey just happens to run aboard the same ship which was so pivotal to that very same Luke Skywalker's life years earlier? Imagine if she ends up being Luke's daughter as many rumours suggest? The millennium falcon only ended up on jakku by chance after it was stolen by about 3 sets of different people, and the daughter of Luke just runs aboard that ship which could have been on any one of a million planets? Give me a break. Even if she's not Luke's daughter it's still a stupid coincidence that makes no sense, because her own droid has the map to Luke, and they run aboard the one ship in the galaxy that Luke had his adventures in.

Oh come on, man! Do I really have to explain the difference to you? The two aren't even remotely comparable.

Han and Luke, make an effort to FIND Princess Leia. They don't stumble across her by coincidence. They walk along a corridor and get into a lift, which could be be 50, or 60 floors high. They seek her out.

On StarKiller Base, which is planet sized facility, Han and Finn "stumble" across Rey , in a million to one coincidence. It's utterly ridiculous.

It's a stupid, million to one coincidence that didn't need to be in the movie in that way. The problem could have been solved by Han simply saying, "I know someone who has an artefact of Luke's. She might be able to help. I'll take you to her"

There, done. I just solved the coincidence with one sentence! WHY DIDN'T THE DAMN FILM-MAKERS DO THAT???

We still would have had Rey's flashback. The only difference is, it wouldn't have been a coincidence that Maz just happened to have Luke's lightsaber with Han not knowing anything about it. I'll just repeat the coincidence as portrayed in the movie, because it is so dumb, and so implausible that it is laughable it made its way into the movie.

Maz has Luke's lightsaber. Han stumbles across Rey and Finn who are looking for Luke. Han take them to see Maz, but Han doesn't actually know that Maz has the lightsaber! It just happens that she has the lightsaber of the very same person that Hans new buddies are looking for.

All that needed to happen to solve this stupid coincidence was for Han to KNOW that Maz had the lightsaber which is a logical reason for him to take his two new buddies to see Maz.

It's incorrect to say that the original 6 movies are full of coincidences. As explained in this post, many of these coincidences are plausible, explainable, or, in the case of finding Anakin in TPM, are not actually coincidences at all. The reason we are holding TFA to account, is because it is choc full of ridiculous coincidences that treat the viewer like an idiot and insults the intelligence of the viewer

 

Why didn't they write it so that Han knew about the lightsaber?
Maybe because they wanted it to seem like destiny - which happens to be a pretty big part of Star Wars.

 

The problem with so much 'destiny' is it makes it seem like there's no free will within the galaxy. That no matter what, the force will out. Which is fine to a point but, certainly in terms of TFA for me, it undermines any drama or sense of peril. There are no real obstacles presented for our characters in TFA, well none that are presented as challenging to overcome... E.g. we need a ship, have the Falcon. We need a guide, have Han Solo. We need a map, oh here's Luke's lightsabre. We need to destroy SKB, here it's easy. We need to escape SKB, here, the main character can 'skill up' when required etc. Which works to ultimately undermine the journey... undermine character growth.

 

The long list of coincidences help (along with the poor pacing) to remove any sense of drama or make the viewer uneasy about how they will get out of the next issue.

 

It was fully explained in the movie(TPM) that the Force guided them to find Lil Vader.

 

It wasn't really "fully" explained at all. Qui-Gon states, "Finding him was the will of the force, I have no doubt of that"

I've always interpreted that to mean that Anakin was the chosen one, and because he was the chosen one he was destined to bring balance to the force one day. Therefore the "will of the force" would be that Anakin will bring balance to the force. Qui-Gon is correctly assuming that Anakin will bring balance to the force, and is assuming that the prophecy is true. Qui-Gon is right. But Qui-Gon doesn't realise that someone's path to destiny can still take twists and turns before they realise that destiny.

It wasn't particularly important that Anakin be found on that particular day and then leave Tatooine a couple of days later. If they found him when he was 7 years old, or 4, or 10, or 14, or 18, or 25, he STILL WOULD HAVE REALISED HIS DESTINY AS THE CHOSEN ONE.

The only thing that is pre-determined is that he will fulfil his destiny. How, and when he fulfils it are still down to random events. If you believe it was the will of the force that Anakin be found at that exact time, on that exact day, then you would have to argue that the malfunctioning hyperdrive on the Naboo starship was the "will of the force." This is rubbish, because the hyperdrive is a mechanical device that has nothing to do with the force.

What Qui-Gon is referring to is that Anakin is the chosen one, and because the chosen one will bring balance to the force, Qui-Gon assumes the meeting wasn't by accident. But as the prequel trilogy shows us in episodes 2 and 3, this wasn't true. Qui-Gon was wrong. The ONLY pre-determined factor was that Anakin will one day bring balance to the force. Everything else comes down to people's choices and random events.

This is the genius of George Lucas. George Lucas shows us that people choices still determine their outcomes. It wasn't the "will of the force" that Anakin turn into Darth Vader. That was a horrible choice Anakin made on the way to his eventual destiny to bring balance to the force.

 

Was the will of the Force involved in Ben's turn to the dark side, the destruction of Luke's Jedi Academy, Rey's abandonment on Jakku, the rise of the First Order, the murder of Lor San Tekka and the other villagers, the annihilation of the Hosnian System, the attack on Maz's castle, the death of Han or Finn's damaged spine?
That's doubtful.
I realize that only five of those occur in the movie, but IMO, there's plenty of danger/tension/obstacles in TFA. Most importantly, I feel danger, because it all feels real to me.

 

I don't have a problem with some things people list, such as R2/3PO landing near Obi-Wan, or Luke crash landing near Yoda. In both cases it was their mission to find those people, would Star Wars have been better if the characters in each case landed on the wrong side of the planet and then we are treated to several months worth of Lord Of the Rings style trekking...no. They aren't coincidences since that was the intent, and it was just a more efficient and interesting way of getting there. It's a movie not a docu-drama.

I also don't buy what some of you call coincidences, which are just simply part of the unfolding plot. Just about anything can be looked at a coincidence, in retrospect. Any movie. What are the chances that rookie cop got paired with that partner, or whatever. Who cares? Real life too. Wow, what a coincidence that I went to the ski lodge the same day this other person just happened to go to the same ski lodge and we fell in love and got married. What are the chances!

 

We have no way of knowing that those places are in "walking distance". We see Han and Luke take an elevator at least once to get to the detention block. Who knows how many other elevators or other transportation they use? We don't have to be shown absolutely every step the heroes take in a movie. Sometimes we can just use our logic and fill in the blanks. So how do the Imperials get around in a moon-sized battle station? It is very unlikely they always walk. It would take them days that way. A station this big is very sure to have interior transportation to get to every point. We can imply that without actually seeing it. But forget about the DS. Even a "normal" Star Destroyer is 1.6 km long. Even at this "short" a distance it would be very inconvenient to have to walk if you want to get to the other end of the ship. How do we know they don't have "subways" of some kind besides elevators? As far as I remember they have interior transportation on the Enterprise, which is relatively small, in the original series. It would make perfect sense for SW ships to have similar technology. Why they don't have guard rails? Who knows? Presumably the people working there are trained well enough and familiar enough with those bridges that they would not fall off. The DS was a battle station inhabited by military only, not a tourist attraction.
As for Leia seeing the Falcon supposedly "immediately" after leaving the garbage chute, again we don't know how many elevators they took in between, or how much time has passed. We are not given any length of time at all in the movie. With the use of a few very fast elevators or whatever other transportation even a distance of hundreds of km would be a matter of minutes. On the other coincidences in ANH mentioned I agree, but this is a case of a simple technical issue that can easily be dismissed. They don't give many technical details in the movies. Much is left to our imagination.
Another example I can think of is Blade Runner, to many THE best SF movie ever. Even that is not without plot holes if we rely on only what we see on the screen. We see Deckard enter the Bradbury building and then go up the stairs only one or two floors, then is in Sebastian's apartment. After the fight with Batty we see him hanging on the ledge, what appears to be a hundred levels up from the street. Where do we see them go up that many levels? We don't. I have never seen that explained. Did both he and Batty use an elevator during the fight? The movie does not suggest that in any way. So is that a plot hole or just something we have to explain for ourselves?

 

Yep, I think there's definitely a distinction between conveniences that serve to move the story along and coincidences that are used to paper over gaps in internal logic, or because the writer just doesn't want to think of a credible answer to a plot problem. A good example would be Obi-Wan being there to save Luke from the Tuskens (ANH), and Spock prime being there to rescue Kirk from the monster (Star Trek 09). IMO, the latter is a result of organic/natural plotting and the former kind of just happens because the story demands they meet.

 

To criticise a movie like Star Wars for its contrivances, coincidences and convenient plotting is harsh because it's par for the course in any film. It's something that's common place with every writer. If you enjoy the film then it's not an issue, or you are more willing to forgive them.

 

No. There is no more or less coincidences in TFA than any other SW movie.

I feel the same way. This is becoming boring, fast.

 

DP

 

Then why not just ignore these threads? Thankfully, this ain't like reddit.

 

I cannot speak for Ricardo Funes, but since my original post is included and Ricardo was commenting, I would like to clarify the main point of my post which was the use of "begging the question". The posters who set up threads reviving complaints about the TFA, which points and discussion have beat the horse into unrecognizable pulp in other threads, sometimes set these up with a title that "begs the question". As per my example above. Begging the question is an old, tired debate tactic and when it happens one can only think that setting these up is intended to create a platform for the contrarians to gather. What I am seeing is that in many of these threads so constructed, there is a flurry of contrarian posts, and the circular arguments start anew (though I do notice that many of the movie defenders are off doing other things recently and many have just begun to ignore them).

I just find it interesting that a few of these threads with "begging the question" titles have popped up recently. My post was pointing out my opinion that even this tactic is getting highly redundant. True this will all shake out by itself ... but really, sometimes things get a bit amusing in the way they develop in a forum community, and deserve a bit of a snark from time to time.

What I do is ignore the Cave. I have visited a few times but have no interest, so leave I it alone.

Sure, there are choices.

 

What you are describing as a coincidence, is the result of the Kenobi-Organa association. Vader is chasing rebel spies and Leia happens to be one of these. She was sent to Tatooine to recruit General Kenobi (who was watching over her brother), thus what we see is the result of these "entanglements".

Where I nevertheless agree is Threepio's involvement, but that is a PT retcon or invention.

 

No. The implausible coincidences are on par with the implausible coincidences in other Star Wars films, and in other fantasy/ mythic stories. You know, it's a story of extraordinary people and things where extraordinary things happen. That's why it's a story and not a diary or historical register.

 

Well considering how all six other films have some implausible coincidences, TFA might as well continue the tradition.

 

Basically everything that happens in this movie is a plot device to help Rey replace Han, Luke, and Leia as the main character of Star Wars. I'm kinda surprised they didn't have her wearing Han's clothes when she inherited his ship and best friend.

 

No baiting or trolling.

 

Honestly I think that it's a case of we hold the original six movies in such high regard that we're willing to overlook any of the coincidences/conveniences/contrivances in all of them, whereas TFA is still fresh in our minds and we tend to nitpick new stuff to death and hold it to a different standard than its predecessors. Also there's a bit of a double-standard where it's okay if GL does it but not Disney.

 

Well, I understand the connection since I actually have seen the movies a lot more than once. A lot. The point is that Lucas himself, in trying to rectify certain things, or explain backstories, both solved and created coincidences and he did that without apology. It is one of the detail things to never get in the way of telling the story, he professed. To use the previous six films in comparison to the coincidences in the seventh is really a fallacious argument. Lucas used coincidence with abandon, and at times when he tried to go back and fill it in, he created new and different ones. I am not being critical of any of the first six saga films. TFA has no more, and sometimes less, coincidences to keep the story moving than many, if not most, other films, including Star Wars. The entire saga is full of them.

 

Since when has George had a free pass on anything Star Wars related in the last 10-15 years? If you think the nitpicking of TFA is bad, or "tiresome" (as someone else pointed out above) then you should have been around back then.

 

I love the fresh eyes opinions on an incomplete story. This hasn't happened since 1980-1983 with this saga. When the prequels were out, everybody knew where they would end, and they even helped us understand that some of the coincidences weren't really coincidences at all. Now with this "fresh force" everybody gets to wonder what are the coincidences, and what things are going to be revealed as actually integral to the story. It will be fun to look over some of these threads when the story is complete.