PT Arrest of Palpatine...Legal?

Dude, SW isn't the real world lol Jango Fett clearly says that he work for a man named Tyranus (Dooku) and later follows his orders on demand. Fett never even meets Palpatine.

 

The end of E2 makes it crystal clear that Dooku is working for Sidious and doing everything he is told to do. For the sake of storytelling, we aren't going to witness the entire debriefing, but it is clear that Dooku has orchestrated everything under Palpatine's instruction.

 

More so when you read the chapter where Dooku is talking to Palpatine, before the duel. And especially after you read "Dark Rendezvous".

Not just that, but in order to keep Dooku from unleashing his vengeance on him for Qui-gon, he would have had to given him a reason to stay his hand. Hell, even Maul knew what Palpatine did for a living.

Neither did he, which is why he talked Lucas into cutting the line. Course, hearing the response of "I lied" would be bone chilling. Much like when Arnold Schwarzenegger did it in "Commando".

Indeed. Hell, Alderaan was Tarkin's idea, but Palpatine is responsible for the conduct of his senior Imperial officer.

Case in point, in "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country", when Kirk was on trial for the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon, he states that he is responsible for the actions of any crew member that was involved in the assassination. Even if he didn't order it and had no involvement in it. Another example, where I live, a few months back, several officers used unnecessary force in the arrest of a suspect. Their watch commander had to take blame for their actions, even though he wasn't involved. Political, military and police actions are all subject to ridicule when conduct unbecoming of said profession occurs and that the higher ups have to take accountability for any wrong doing.

Except when it comes to his army, Palpatine has final say in who becomes the template.

Exactly.

DOOKU: "The Force is with us, Master Sidious."

SIDIOUS: "Welcome home, Lord Tyranus. You have done well."

DOOKU: "I bring good news, my Lord. The war has begun."

SIDIOUS: "Excellent. Everything is going as planned."

The plan was everything that happened in AOTC, with the exception of the death of Shmi Skywalker. The assassination was important to get the war started. The assassination attempts end with Jango using the Kamino Saber dart, which brought Obi-wan to Kamino and to where the Clone Army was. Obi-wan going to Geonosis and sending out his transmission. That was also part of the plan. Having Padme offworld, so that Jar Jar would step up to the plate was part of the plan. All of it was according to plan. Palpatine is not going to let Dooku go off and do something without his permission, nor without his knowledge. You're a fool to believe anyone would do that.

 

Especially if (as Tarkin claims in The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader) Palpatine had personally given him a free hand to do whatever he thought necessary:

The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader
"I think it's time we demonstrated the full power of this station," Tarkin said. Turning to Motti, he commanded, "Set your course for Alderaan."
"With pleasure," Motti replied with an evil smile.
Realizing what Tarkin intended, Vader surveyed the man with new respect. The Dark Lord had done many horrendous and unpardonable things, but it seemed that Tarkin- at least in this situation- was even more diabolically inventive. However, Vader had one problem with Tarkin's scheme. "Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems," Vader said. "The Emperor should be consulted."
"Do not think to challenge me!" Tarkin snapped. "You are not confronting Tagge or Motti now! The Emperor has placed me in charge of this affair with a free hand, and the decision is mine! And you will have your information that much sooner."

Other EU books do have characters speculating that Palpatine decided that the Death Star was a solution to other Alderaan-based problems besides Bail Organa- a Caamasi (pacifist aliens) community stirring up anti-Imperial sentiment.

In Death Star, the same scene, written slightly differently, still suggests Palpatine has specifically approved the destruction of Alderaan, at least according to Tarkin- but also that Vader approves:

Death Star
"I think it's time we demonstrated the full power of this station," Tarkin said. He looked back at his officer. "Set your course for Alderaan."
The man mumbled something and left, but Tarkin was already thinking ahead. If Princess Leia was a thorn in the Empire's side, then Alderaan was a forest of thorns.
Well, it was time to purge that forest. With fire.
Tagge started to say something but apparently thought better of it. Tarkin smiled almost benignly and said, "I understand your concerns, General. Rest assured I've spoken with Emperor Palpatine recently about demonstrating his battle station's range and strength. He has assured me that I have full rein to do so." He looked at Vader. "You disapprove, Lord Vader?"
"Not at all, Governor."

 

Yeah Palps didn't need to know every single detail.

 

Exactly. Thank you, Beezer.

 

Dooku works for Palpatine, but he can certainly think for himself and seems to operate so. There's a difference between telling subordinates what to do and how to do it.

 

^That. Do you actually think Palpatine said to Dooku "I want you to hire the same bounty hunter that you used to clone our army to kill Padme Amidala so that the Trade Federation will join your CIS. Then order the execution of Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi I have spent the last 10 years trying to convert to the dark side. Then Dooku, I would like you to stop your droid army from executing the Jedi on Geonosis, despite the fact that some of the most powerful Jedi are among them."

Um, nope.

 

You underestimate PalpSidious' faith in Anakin. He knew that the boy would survive the whole Geonosis ordeal and he's using Dooku to test Anakin to see if he's ready to become the next Sith lord. Plus, according to the ROTS novelization, PalpSidious ordered Dooku not to harm Anakin if he is defeated again but if he did win, PalpSidious will step in on Dooku's behalf. Imagine the look of horror on Dooku's face when he watched PalpSidious ordering Anakin to kill him which he does, thus solidifying his turn to the dark side.

 

I think arresting Palpatine was perfectly legitimate. Cone on guys, the man was acting like a complete jerk.

 

Dooku's reaction would've been hilarious if Palps said all that.

 

Your changing the subject here man. My point is that there is no way Palpatine would insult Dooku's intelligence by giving him such specific orders. Not to mention, Dooku does things that go against his goals, like trying to have Anakin executed. Just like in TPM he didn't order Maul to go to Tatooine, use the probe droids, or ambush them in the desert. He just told him to find them, and bring the Queen back.

 

I sense a really runny Robot Chicken sketch covering this discussion in the near future.

 

Palpatine told Dooku that he needs someone to be the template for the Clone Army. Dooku told him that he knew of Jango Fett from a previous encounter and vouched for him. Palpatine told him to hire him, but not use his real name. Dooku complied and Jango went to Kamino to offer up his DNA. Ten years later, Dooku is given consent to use whatever means necessary to ensure Nute Gunray's participation, which in this case is the assassination of Senator Amidala. Jango is encouraged to use the Kamino Saber Dart. From there, Jango chooses to hire Zam Wessel on his own accord which results in her attempts. He then eliminates her with the dart, forcing the Jedi Council to send Obi-wan in search of Jango. Jango unintentionally leads Obi-wan to Geonosis, unaware that it was part of the plan. Obi-wan is allowed to send his transmission as Dooku knows that he is there. The Emergency Powers Act is passed and Palpatine authorizes a full strike on Geonosis. Dooku is then encouraged by Palpatine to fight Anakin at any opportunity after learning of their encounter on Geonosis. Three years later, Palpatine tells Dooku that he wants them to fight one last time during his kidnapping, in order to turn the boy. He must eliminate Obi-wan and enrage the boy, so that he joins them. He will then stop the fight before Dooku is killed. But then Palpatine tells Anakin to finish him, which Dooku then realizes he was set up. And if you don't believe that, here's this...

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.


"After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

Palpatine gave specific orders to Dooku, because that was the execution of his plan. He didn't for Maul, because that was not part of the plan.

 

Palpatine gave specific orders to Dooku, because that was the execution of his plan. He didn't for Maul, because that was not part of the plan.

In what scene does Palpatine give Dooku these "specific orders"?

 

Palpatine told Dooku that he needs someone to be the template for the Clone Army. Dooku told him that he knew of Jango Fett from a previous encounter and vouched for him. Palpatine told him to hire him, but not use his real name. Dooku complied and Jango went to Kamino to offer up his DNA. Ten years later, Dooku is given consent to use whatever means necessary to ensure Nute Gunray's participation, which in this case is the assassination of Senator Amidala. Jango is encouraged to use the Kamino Saber Dart. From there, Jango chooses to hire Zam Wessel on his own accord which results in her attempts. He then eliminates her with the dart, forcing the Jedi Council to send Obi-wan in search of Jango. Jango unintentionally leads Obi-wan to Geonosis, unaware that it was part of the plan. Obi-wan is allowed to send his transmission as Dooku knows that he is there. The Emergency Powers Act is passed and Palpatine authorizes a full strike on Geonosis. Dooku is then encouraged by Palpatine to fight Anakin at any opportunity after learning of their encounter on Geonosis. Three years later, Palpatine tells Dooku that he wants them to fight one last time during his kidnapping, in order to turn the boy. He must eliminate Obi-wan and enrage the boy, so that he joins them. He will then stop the fight before Dooku is killed. But then Palpatine tells Anakin to finish him, which Dooku then realizes he was set up. And if you don't believe that, here's this...

Everything highlighted there is your own creative invention and EU additions. None of it occurs in the films however and doesn't really carry any weight in a discussion regarding the films. Why would Dooku need "consent" to get Gunrays participation? It was confirmed in TPM that Gunray is spineless and easily controllable. What makes you think that during the planning of a galactic was that will result in the deaths of billions, Dooku stopped and though to himself "Hmmm if I kill this one Senator in order to start the the war my master might get mad, I'd better ask him if he's okay with me ordering the assassination of one person."

 

Because Nute said that he would not join the Confederacy until Padme was dead. Nute needed to be brought it and this was his payment. None of what I said is from the EU. It's from the film and it is not made up by me, it is what happened in the films.

NUTE GUNRAY: "What about the Senator from Naboo? Is she dead yet? I'm not signing your treaty until I have her head on my desk."

DOOKU: "I am a man of my word, Viceroy."

Nute was holding out because of what happened last time and Dooku had to make assurances in order to get his full and willing support.

No, Dooku told Palpatine what Nute's condition was for joining the Confederacy and Palpatine gave him the okay.

Not on screen, but what occurred between TPM and AOTC. This is confirmed when they meet up at the end of AOTC, when Dooku said that the war began and that Sidious said it went according to plan.

 

You're still forgetting that PalpSidious told Gunray that Darth Maul will find Padme's ship and whereever it's located, Maul will go there and get the queen. Once Maul pinpointed the exact location of the ship, then, as you've pointed out, PalpSidious told him to go there and bring back the queen. As for PalpSidious not giving Dooku specific orders, well he didn't tell Gunray that Vadakin was going to kill him and the other separatist leaders but that's the idea. PalpSidious isn't going to fill anyone in on his real plans and he uses people to get what he wants which is a)complete control of the universe and b) Vadakin as his apprentice.

 

I don't know where your going man..my point is Palpatine had nothing to do with Jango Fett trying to kill Padme...

 

Oh it didn't happen on-screen eh? We're just supposed to believe so because you said it right? How does saying "everything is going according to plan" equate to "I followed through on your direct order to have Padme Amidala killed", which he failed at btw, so if it is true that Palpatine ordered him to have her killed then everything was NOT going according to plan.

 

HE HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THIS!

Jango's employer, Count Dooku is serving the big boss man himself, PalpSidious and anything Jango does will benefit PalpSidious which is what I've been trying to tell you the enitre freaking time.

 

Jango and Palpatine never meet. Palpatine and Dooku never mention him. Unless you can tell me which scene in which movie this occurs: Palpatine had nothing to do with Jango Fett trying to kill Padme.

 

Jango doesn't have to meet PalpSidious nor does Dooku or PalpSidious have to mention Jango's name to be connected to one another. This goes back to my "guilt by association" point where if you work for someone whose in a partnership with a Sith lord pretending to be a politician, then anything you do will leave trails and those trails will go directly to the people you're working for. When 2 planes took down the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, the police and FBI uncovered the identities of the hijackers responsible and learned that those individuals are members of the Al-Quieda terrorist group whose leader is Osama Bin Laden. Then we, the american people, declared that Osama must pay for the 9/11 terrorist attacks so my point is, if Jango Fett left any evidence behind, the Jedi will know where it came from. Then, they will come for Jango and find out he's working for Dooku whom they'll learn is Darth Sidious' new apprentice. Then, Dooku tells them that Sidious is controlling the Repubilc which will lead them directly to Palpatine, whom they find out is Darth Sidious which is exactly what happens in AOTC and ROTS.

Once again, when Obi-wan said that the chancellor is behind everything, that includes the assassination plot against Padme.

 

Nothing you said there mentioned a scene where: Palpatine meets Fett or mentions him. Also your misquoting, Obi-Wan said "It appears that the Chancellor is behind everything including the war."

And no, when Obi-Wan says "everything" he doesn't literally mean that Palpatine is behind every single event that occurred in the galaxy.

 

Except Palpatine told Dooku that he had his consent to hire an assassin if it would get Nute to sign the treaty. It's like in a corporation. The CEO tells the COO to hire someone to run a department at the company. The CEO doesn't have to meet the person, just give permission to the COO to handle things. The COO can also handle certain deals for the company, with little involvement from the CEO. But the COO needs the CEO's consent on certain matters that affect the company's future.

The plan still worked out. Nute still signed the treaty, the Clone Army was still found, Emergency Powers was given to Palpatine and over a hundred Jedi were killed on Geonosis. Palpatine didn't care if Padme lived or died, he just wanted Nute to sign on the dotted line and for Obi-wan to find Kamino. The two were tied together because Jango used a toxic dart that was traceable to the location of the army.

Except for the fact that he is. That's the point of the entire PT. Lucas even says that Sidious pulled all the strings.

"We do reveal that Dooku is Darth Tyranus, he's a Sith Lord, and that he's in league with Darth Sidious and Darth Sidious is pulling all the strings and everything is going just the way he wants them to go. The Emperor continues to pull the strings."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

You don't need a scene showing Palpatine talking to Jango. That's just an excuse on your part to avoid admitting that you're wrong.