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Balance of the Force

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by dehrian, Jun 25, 2003.

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  1. Spike_Spiegel

    Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 12, 2002
    I there an actual "Son of the Suns" reference in any of the movies? Some people say that the crowds at the end of RotJ chant Son of the Suns, I don't know about that. But besides that, the Prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force has never been referred to as "The Son of the Suns" to my knowledge.
     
  2. dehrian

    dehrian Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 18, 1999
    The official line from LFL has been that the "Sun of the Sons" shout is just peoples' imaginations.
     
  3. Spike_Spiegel

    Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 12, 2002
    That sounds about right to me.
     
  4. Spike_Spiegel

    Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 12, 2002
    Upping this for RotS discussion.
     
  5. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 1999
    >>>>The official line from LFL has been that the "Sun of the Sons" shout is just peoples' imaginations.

    Group hallucination?

    As for ROTS, Anakin clearly had his chance to fulfil the prophecy without the Jedi purge- to wipe out the Sith and bring balance. He killed Dooku, and he could have killed Palpatine twice. But he failed, because he was obsessed with becoming more powerful. I'm glad that it unfolded that way.
     
  6. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Sep 26, 2000
    I don't get how Anakin brought balance to the Force. By destroying the Emperor? The Emperor was going to be destroyed anyway when the second Death Star was destroyed. The destruction of the Sith was not dependant on Anakin returning to the light side of the Force, it was going to happen when the Rebels blew up the sheild generator and Lando and Wedge destroyed the reactor core anyway.

    If Darth Vader had allowed the Emperor to kill Luke, they both would have been toast 10 minutes later in the explosion anyway. I don't get why he is credited with bringing balance.
     
  7. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    Very good point Loopster. The Emperor set a trap for the Rebels, but he didn't anticipate the action of the Ewoks on the ground, which helped Han and his team blow up the shield generator. If anyone destroyed the Sith, it was the Ewoks of Endor.
     
  8. TheForgottenJedi

    TheForgottenJedi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 10, 2004
    If Darth Vader had allowed the Emperor to kill Luke, they both would have been toast 10 minutes later in the explosion anyway. I don't get why he is credited with bringing balance.

    I don't think so. The Emperor was pretty focused on the Vader/Luke battle but once it was over Iam sure he would've felt through the force that something wasn't completely right down on Endor.

    The Sith would've escaped and the Jedi been destroyed had it not been for Anakin Skywalker.
     
  9. JBRO_13

    JBRO_13 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 1, 2002
    Seems to me that the "balance" would exist within those using the Force. Nobody who fed exclusively off of one side of the Force ever ended up succeeding in anyway for their entire existence. Yes, the Jedi ruled for a millennia or whatever, but, they were wiped out in a matter of days.

    The Sith ruled the galaxy for about 25 years before one of their own ended that reign.

    Those emotions and aspects that the Jedi warned against are necessary for surviving. However, the aspects that the Sith promote (murder, etc.) are not the best way to remain in power.

    So, with that said, to understand what balance would be, we have to look at the characters who utilized both sides of the Force.

    Dooku, Anakin, and Luke were the only ones who used both sides of the Force in their lifetime (that are shown on-screen).

    Dooku is killed much earlier, so, omit him from the discussion.

    Luke uses the Dark Side throughout Episode VI and then when he's able to defeat Vader on the second Death Star. The memory of Anakin Skywalker is what instills in Luke the defiance to refuse the Emperor's Dark Side proposal ("like my father before me"). Luke was going to die at the hands of Palpatine were it not for Vader's interference.

    Vader's choice to kill Palpatine cost him his life, but saved Luke's, thereby saving a Force-user who used both sides of the Force. I'm not saying Luke went around shooting lightning and killing people and lying and whatever else, but, he used his emotions to a point where it was not endangering himself or those around him.

    Luke represents the balance that Anakin brought.

    So Anakin DID bring balance, thereby fulfilling the prophecy and earning his title of The Chosen One. But Luke IS the balance. People need to understand that distinction.

    [Additionally, and, I guess, hypothetically, had Vader survived to escape the Death Star, he, too, would've represented balance, as he used his emotions to save his son and safely fed off of both sides of the Force.]
     
  10. Ogmios22188

    Ogmios22188 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 12, 2004
    That's what I've always believed; Anakin brought balance to the Force and is the Chosen One, but Luke is the balance in living form.
     
  11. ppal

    ppal Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 13, 1999
    This is interesting in the early drafts of ROTJ I read that Kasdan actually wanted to kill of Luke in ROTJ and this would have set up episodes VII - IX with Leia assuming the role of the last hope and in fact Lucas did say there would be three more movies but he cramed them all into one. But what do you all think should Lucas have killed Luke off in ROTJ and replaced him with Leia????
     
  12. SDSweetland

    SDSweetland Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 5, 2005
    Well, didn't really want this buried here, but as you wish my master:

    This is my personal theory but it makes sense from what I have seen of the 6 movies. I haven't read any of the EU books so I'm just referring to George Lucas' Star Wars here.

    Anakin brought balance to the force by 3 actions:

    1. He killed all the Jedi (except Yoda who he didn't need to kill because he died of old age)

    2. He killed all the Sith

    3. His offspring are neither Jedi nor Sith.

    I base this upon the fact that Luke uses the dark side to defeat Darth Vader in episode 6 and yet does not "turn". Watch the Emperor's reaction when Luke refuses to join him after defeating his father. Palpatine has turned a few Jedi in his day and he was certain he had suceeded with Luke. He is shocked that it didn't happen. I think Luke and Leia are something that neither side foresaw, neither Jedi nor Sith. For them (and their offspring) there is no dark or light side, just the Force.

    Anakin brought about the death of the old way of using the force and gave birth to a new balanced way. Luke and Leia's children will never have to live the lives of strict denial that the Jedi had to live in fear of being seduced to the Dark side. They will be able to live and love and be complete human beings and still use the force. In addition, the millenia of the Sith and the Jedi tearing the galaxy apart fighting for control are over as well. That really fits the definition of balance in my opinion.
     
  13. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    Yeah, I like that explanation too. And the way I see it there's nothing in the movies that actually contradicts it.
     
  14. solo77

    solo77 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 28, 2002
    ^^ NO

    GL has stated that BALANCE = NO SITH

    Anakin bought balance in ROTJ by killing The Emperor!

    EOS
     
  15. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    Of course, but what GL says doesn't mean squat when he never puts anything in the movies to explain it. He left it open. So if GL suddenly waltzes in and says, "actually, Star Destroyers aren't triangular, they're really round, I've been meaning to correct that for some time now" you'll start perceiving SDs as round? He can say whatever he wants, but the films left the issue wide open. You gotta put in your own interpretation of it. You can choose to interpret it the way GL tells you to, or you can interpret it the way you like it. It's his movies, yes, but he can't make me see something the way he wants it, when there's nothing in the movies to back up his opinion. You know, there was a time when there were no DVDs or audio commentaries, and the director had to somehow put all the things he wanted to say in the actual movie, instead of going "Oh, and by the way this is what balance to the Force means". But Lucas has clearly moved on from those days.
     
  16. D_Lowe

    D_Lowe Jedi Knight star 6

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    Aug 15, 2002
    Of course, but what GL says doesn't mean squat when he never puts anything in the movies to explain it.

    So are you saying you know more than Lucas?
     
  17. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    All I know is what I see on screen, and what I am able to deduct by what I see on screen, and frankly, I don't want to know any more than that, because I don't care.

    But let me ask you this: If Lucas suddenly were to say "Yoda is not green. He is in fact pink.", who would know better? Do you know better than Lucas because you see the green Yoda right in front of you, or does Lucas know better than you because it's his universe and he calls the shots?
     
  18. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Nay-Sayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    Actually, it's how Anakin destroyed the Sith that brought balance to the Force. It's revealed in the RotJ novelization that Yoda has an epiphany: the Sith cannot be defeated by force of arms or combat. If Vader, Sidious, & Luke battled on until the Death Star was destroyed, the Force would still have been out of balance; the Sith would've found a way to return. However, it is the love between Anakin & Luke that drove Anakin to destroy the Emperor, at the cost of his own life.

    It is love that brought balance to the Force, not a proton torpedo.

    As an aside, I stand by an assessment of mine that Obi-Wan & Yoda didn't necessarily want Luke to kill Vader. They needed him to be willing to kill him if it came to that. I think that they were of the mind that if Luke were catatorically unwilling to kill Lord Vader, then Emperor Sidious would've used that mentality to his advantage.
     
  19. robot120

    robot120 Jedi Grand Master star 2

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    Jun 30, 2001
    The Force is beginning to lose balance, and the Jedi are beginning to lose their ability to use the Force, yet they are unaware of it. The midichlorians, sensing this threat, created Anakin to restore balance to the Force. Yet what does it mean to bring balance?

    Balance is, in this case, a balance of nature, not numbers. The Force is not balanced until the end of ROTJ, when all the Sith have been eliminated. The Sith caused the imbalance by wiping out the Jedi and taking control of the Force; their cancerous nature eats away at the fabric of the Force, and causes an unnatural reaction. The only way to restore balance is to remove the Sith from the equation.


    Since it was revealed that Anakin may have been created by a super sith, it might be possible that the sith are really not a cancer eating away at the force, or unnatural, but part of the natural cycle of the force. Its like yin and yang, balance may be created by an alternating time period of light and dark. The Sith were on top for 1000 years then the jedi were on top for 1000 years. This makes the Sith essential to the balance of the force. Additionally, it may be possible that these transfers of power are not decided with battles but always with internal conflict on either side. With the creation of Anakin by a super sith, the sith essentially planted the seed for their own eventual destruction. The jedi, in turn, destroyed themselves by overestimating their abilities. By having each side destroy itself, it allows an eventual take over by the opposite side, no matter how powerful one side may become. They can't escape fate.
     
  20. Tho Yor

    Tho Yor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2001
    I agree with what you're saying here, and I had a lengthy discussion with a friend about this. The Force as it is in the PT is split into polar opposites, the selfless Jedi and the passionate Sith. The Jedi are cold, celibate beings who deny themselves relationships and attachments because this would tend, as it did with Anakin, to make them passionate, and this passion will get the better of them, turning them to the dark side.
    But in the OT we have Force users who are merely human beings. They love, and they let their feelings control them sometimes (Luke's fear of losing Han and Leia made him go to Cloud City against Yoda's advice). As SDSweetland has put it, these are 'balanced' individuals who lack the polarity of light and dark, Jedi and Sith. I take that to mean balance of the Force. I know Lucas has talked about merely destroying the Sith being the balance, but that really doesn't work for me. Balance implies equilibrium. The old 'equal number of Jedi and Sith' thing also bothered me, because then how could the prophecy be fulfilled on killing the Emperor? Surely it'd be fulfilled when Anakin kills the Jedi.
    The Jedi were meant to be destroyed by the Chosen One. That in itself is part of the balance because by destroying the monklike Jedi the galaxy was engulfed in passion (albeit the dark, evil kind). Anakin learns to balance that emotion at the end of ROTJ and kills the Emperor, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

    That's my take anyway.
     
  21. Jedi_872

    Jedi_872 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 3, 2005
    My theory is that as long as the Jedi use the Force correctly, they will not disrupt the natural balance and will not need an opposite group to counter them. By correctly, I mean for the greater good, not exploiting it.

    However, the Jedi are not using the Force correctly. They are drawing away from other people and not letting themselves be like others.

    The Sith use the Force for their own good. They take, but don't give.

    So, if there is a time when the Jedi use the Force correctly and there aren't any Sith (or Sith equivilent) the Force will be in balance. The political system also has to work so that the Jedi and the Senate, or other political body, keep each other in check.

    The other aspect of balance is the Living Force and the Unifying Force. This is out of balance, too. Luke uses the Living Force much more than the Jedi had in the past, and so there is a balance in that area.

    There aren't sides to the Force. People just use the term "The Dark Side" to describe misuse of the Force.
     
  22. bry-maul

    bry-maul Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Apr 5, 2005
    I agree with ViolentVioletMenace that any piece of art can be interpreted many ways and ideally that is what the artist wants - for people to take whatever they want from it. I also come from a similar mindset of taking what is presented in the movies at face value and don't want to have to rely on the EU to explain things.

    However, when the actual artist tells you what you are supposed to see, I don't think there is anything left to argue. Making arguements by saying Yoda is pink or Star Destroyers are round doesn't work - those aren't "ideas" open to interpretation.

    Sorry if you are disappointed that what you were supposed to see wasn't presented in a way that allowed you to see what the artist wanted you to see (make sure to read that slowly, its a lot of "seeing"). But that doesn't change what the movies mean.

    "The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 221

     
  23. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    There's two points I'd like to comment with respect to the Lucas-quotes, bry_maul.

    First, there's a myriad of Lucas quotes and besides those where he mentioned that balance means "destroying the Sith" there are others which point to the yin-yang-balance mentioned above. Darth Sinister posted these quotes in a thread on the ROTS-board.

    Second, I think GL is well aware that the great majority of the fans aren't interested in thinking deeply on the nature of the prophecy. In fact, he lately mentioned that people expect Star Wars to be Darth Vader running around and killing everyone Jedi. So, my take is that GL sticks to the rule "keep it simple and stupid" for the mass audiences. That man is too well educated in mythology and eastern and western religions, I don't believe he's not aware of the more subtle meanings his "prophecy" entails.

    I go with the postings above, esp. Jedi872 and robot120. In one quote, Lucas mentioned the Saga was about balance between everything. This is exactly what yin-yang-balance is about. Balance between darkness and light, balance between transcendence and immanence, balance between Living and Unifying Force, balance between feeling and thinking.

    The Jedi Order by the time of the prequels was unbalanced with respect to the Unifying and the Living Force, with respect to "thinking" and "feeling". Qui-Gon was the one who knew it. "Use your instincts. Feel, don't think" he told Anakin in TPM. "Be mindful of the Living Force", he told Obi-Wan. "Use the Force! Think!" Obi-Wan told Anakin in AOTC. My take is that the Jedi Order was too much focussed on the Unifying Force on the cost of neglecting the Living Force. Neglecting feeling and supressing it so it would become a part of the unconscious, become the Jungian "shadows". Part of the dark side, that is. Suppressed only to reappear all the more violently in a crisis. The imbalance between Living and Unifying Force brought about an imbalance of feeling and thinking, and this in turn caused the imbalance of darkness and light to emerge.

    Anakin's strength was with the Living Force, acting on instinct and feelings. He wasn't a man inclined to philosophical thinking. Thus, he was the right man to shift balance towards the Living Force. Unfortunately, the Jedi didn't realize and told him to suppress his emotions, to the effect that they built up in the subconscious, strengthening the dark side potential in him. And Palpatine took advantage of the suppressed emotions inside him. We all know what happened.

    By the OT time, Qui-Gon has taught Obi-Wan and Yoda from the netherlands of the force, and accordingly they changed their teachings when it came to teaching Luke. They placed much more emphasis on the Living Force and on acting on instinct, feeling and intuition. Since he wasn't taught to suppress feelings, instead to act on instinct, he was much less prone to fall into darkness.

    Anakin brought balance by destroying the old Jedi Order and in the end also destroying the Sith. Paving the way for Luke, to set up a new order, according to a new set of teachings, that was free of the flaws of the old order. And thus balance was achieved.

    Just my very personal thoughts on this.
     
  24. bry-maul

    bry-maul Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Apr 5, 2005
    mandragora,

    i completely agree with the keep it simple philosophy - I am one of the fans who doesn't want to think too deeply about SW. That's why I used the quote I did, even though as you point out, there are tons of other quotes. But all of them seem to come back to the idea that, if you just look at the basic actions in the movies, it doesn't have to be deeper than a man redeemed by killing the emperor.

    it seems we agree but in different terms (unless I'm not reading your post right).

    I also meant to add that obviously people are entitled to interpret things however they want. [:D] I just think there are a few things that aren't quite open to interpretation.

    in the end, I guess I'm not as worried about what true balance is other than taking GL at his word that it was achieved at the end of ROTJ. And since this thread is to go into more detail about what the true balance is, I apologize to all for "trolling". But that wasn't my intent. I enjoy this forum because it tends to be a bit more mature than the ROTS and prequel.
     
  25. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2005
    just to address a point above about the emporer dying even if vader hadnt turned back...

    this is not true

    luke wouldve been fried and palps & vader wouldve had enough time to escape the death star just as luke did when all the alarms started going off

    just wanted to clear that up!
     
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