"Begun, the Clone War has" - but does Yoda realize HE is to blame??

WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT????

Yoda took the Clone Army after Dooku captured 2 Jedi and a senator! He was planning on having them executed!!!! If that's not a declaration of war, I don't know what is!!??!!?? Yoda was reacting to the actions of the attacking party. The Separists. They are clearly the aggressor.

 

Yoda had no idea that Anakin and Padme disobeyed Mace's orders. The Seperatists did not recognize Amidala's authority. The Geonosians were going to execute the trio for espionage, which they were guilty of. Yoda knew that Obi-Wan was in danger, which Mace went to go help. Yoda brought the army to Geonosis just in case Mace failed to stop Dooku, knowing there was a droid army being created there. The Seperatists HAD NOT ATTACKED anyone yet. What Yoda did was launch a preemptive strike. The Republic was the aggressor in this instance, only because they knew an attack was imminent. This isn't hard to understand.

 

I guess it is. Your telling me taking a senator and 2 jedi hostage is not an act of aggression?? Doesn't matter what they were tried for, that was a kangaroo court. They would have been found guilty of anything.
That's like saying if any high profile senator (Padme) ever got captured in a foreign country (Genossis)with 2 generals(OB1, Anakin), we as Amreicans (Senate) would sit back and do nothing. Even thou we've been having trouble with them all this time.
Ob1 went there to get Jengo, and was captured. Padme and Anakin went there to rescue him. He(OB1) finds out Dooku is behind the attempts on the Senators life. He tells this to the council and they see him get captured.
So they know he's in trouble and they are going to react to it. Even if they did not know Anakin and Padame were captured, which is debatable, they know everything else.
- Dooku and Gunray are together
-Gunray is behind the terroists attacks on Padme, which implicates Dooku as well
-Ob1 is being held
-And they probably know Padme and Anakin are being held as well
-so they(Yoda, Mace) can put it all together and know they(Dooku) won't just hold them all there.

This is an act of aggression. Taking hostages and trying to exacute them?? If they were just holding them and said, "Come get them, no hard feelings.", then I might say it is not.

 

1. The Seperatists did not "take" anyone. They were captured on a foreign world and charged with spying. This is a valid charge, as they had infiltrated a seperatist world along with a sensitive industrial facility. This would be no different than if an American senator and two generals had been found sneaking around a Chinese defense facility.

2. The Jedi Council knows fron Obi-Wan's report that Nute Gunray is behind the asassination attempts. They also know that the Trade Federation is allied with Seperatists. But the conclusion that is drawn is that the attempts were an act of vengence on Gunray's part, not a means of influencing politics in the Republic, per se.

3. There is no way for Yoda or Mace to know that Anakin and Padme went to help Obi-Wan. They make no transmission to the Jedi Council indicating this, in fact the whole basis of their conversation immediately after Mace's orders is that of Padme's semantics. They know the're not supposed to leave Tatooine, but do so anyway WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE.

 

Thank you Tina, and yes that is correct.

 

You're welcome, -_-_-_-_-_-

 

Doesn't matter Jedi are like the Galaxy Police, they look after matters the council assigns them and the senate basically supports this.

A Jedi should not be arrested for spying in the course of his duties, if he is, then the council will deal with it, they way it should be.

And if one of there own is sentenced to death illigeally (sp) then they will try to launch a rescue party.

It must also be noted that Padme tried a diplomatic solution as a senator in the cut scenes.

I don't know what logic you guys are using but it's flawed

 

First, I hope nobody's posted something like this; if anyone has, please lock the thread.

I started thinking about Yoda's line in ESB --
LUKE: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
YODA: If you honor what they fight for, yes.

Then I realized that in AOTC, Yoda basically starts the Clone Wars by taking the Clone Army to Geonosis so that they can rescue one senator and a dozen or so Jedis.

I don't believe this is a correct assessment of Yoda's motivation for bringing the clone army to Geonosis, since he knew that the Separatists were amassing a droid army there. (See: Obi-Wan's message from Geonosis.)

A reasonable alternative motivation for Yoda was a pre-emptive strike to end the war before it even began by capturing/killing Dooku and neutralizing most (if not all) of the Separatists' droid army. The alternative, waiting for the Separatists to attack, would have had the following disadvantages:

- The droid army would have been dispersed across the galaxy rather than concentrated in a single system.

- Count Dooku would have been that much harder to find.

- And the first strike (or two or three) from the Separatists would have likely been against some weakly defended system, resulting in an untold number of civilian casualties.

It would have been like Luke waiting for the Death Star to destroy Yavin IV before making the trench run: a really bad idea.


As an aside note, Estranged, I think the clone army actually WAS meant to be used by the Republic.


Good point Princess_Tina! Did you notice Yoda wasn't willing to sacrifice his friends for the greater good? He let Dooku get away so he could rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan. I think much of Yoda's and Obi-Wan's wisdom from the classic trilogy was learned the hard way in the prequel trilogy.

Not just friends: THE CHOSEN ONE. He could have been sacrificing the short term gain of killing Dooku (which would have left the mysterious Sith Master alive) to protect the Chosen One destined to ultimately bring balance to the Force.


Well one point was brought up on the DVD text commentary. It said after saving Obi-Wan and Anakin, and letting Dooku get away and let the wars begin, he changes his idea of what is worth doing. It says he learns why he should learn to sacrifice others for a greater good.

Pardon me, Fanboy_Solo, but what text commentary?

 

Palpatine could care less about the redemption of Anakin. At this point he probably doesn't even know who Anakin is. Yoda isn't nearly at fault as Obi Wan is. Although if Yoda had seen any part of the future he should have put his foot dowm to Obi Wan even beginning to train Anakin.

Now what about that scene in ESB when they believe that they've lost Luke to the dark side too, and Yoda says. "There is another." Who actually was he referring too Leia, Han, or someone else yet unseen.

 

Yoda's meant to be talking about Leia.

 

Leave Yoda alone. He's a living thing.

 

A while ago I posted a similar "It was all Yoda's fault thread" and people really hate that idea!

What people don't realise is that we are not blaming Yoda outright, just the choices he made, and the set-up of Palpy, led to some of the choices that the little green fella made being bad. Accept it.

That's why he's in the OT, because he needs to put right the things that went wrong in the PT. He knew some of those things were partially down to some of the choices he (and the Council) made.

 

If Yoda did not take them to Geonosis, they would still exist, and Palpy would still use them, and the Clone Wars would still happen. The only thing that Yoda is responsible for is using them to save the life of the other Jedi. (I've always thought that Mace, after arriving on Geonosis, would have sent a transmission once he saw what the situation was, before going in with the Jedi he had... that being how Yoda knew to come to the rescue)

And comparing Yoda saving Anakin and ObiWan instead of taking out Dooku with Luke going to save Han and Leia... well matter of factly Anakin and ObiWan are more important overall than Han and Leia at that point. That point aside, who's to say that if Yoda takes out Dooku it would have stopped anything from happening? Palpy would still be there, he'd just have to find another way. And he would have.

 

Nice thread! Great ideas!

Exactl where in the DVD commentary does it say Yoda is learning from his mistakes ?

 

I think that was actually stated in the DVD text commentary, which I personally haven't seen, so I only know about it from second-hand sources.

Just to sum up -- yes, we know the Clone Wars probly would have started no matter what... it just happens to be ironic that they start when Yoda takes command of the Clone Army and goes to Geonosis to rescue the Jedi and to try to destroy as much of the Droid Army as they can...

It's the kind of thing that even Master Yoda could not fully grasp until after the fact... because hindsight is always 20/20...

 

[1. The Seperatists did not "take" anyone. They were captured on a foreign world and charged with spying. This is a valid charge, as they had infiltrated a seperatist world along with a sensitive industrial facility. This would be no different than if an American senator and two generals had been found sneaking around a Chinese defense facility.


YES!!! It is so nice when someone actually understands what happened in the movie.

Anyway, I thik Yoda along with the rest of the Jedi will realize how terribly wrong they have been near the middle of Ep. III. by that time, Palps will have become Emporor and somehow managed to frame the Jedi and cause them to lose favor with the public.

As fro Yoda's line in ESB, it does work now if Yoda has some regret about the Battle of geonosis in Ep. III. But I don't think that will ever happen. These movies are pretty disjointed. It amazes me that Darth maul's name was never mentioned in AOTC. You'd think there would be some follow up on uncovering the "Mystery of the Sith" from 10 years earlier. but anyway, even though it was not inteded this way, it works out nicely if Yoda does have a big regret about using the clones initially and then in ESB he suggests that Luke sacrifice his own friends.

But somehow, I always thought that line from ESB referred to the dsitinction between the Jedi vs. the Sith and the rebels vs. the Empire. While the rebels were important to freedom, nothing would ever chnages as long as the Sith were in power. Luke's main goal in Yoda's mind was defeating the Sith and he did not want Luke to waver from that. That's why he should even let his friends die if it meant completing his training. It was so important that he became a skilled Jedi because he and his conquest of the Sith were the only ways of ensuring that galaxy would ever be free.

 

Princess Tina, clouded your judgement is! Do you not think that If Yoda had not gone to Geonosis the sepratists would have killed the Jedi then amassed a droid army to attack the core of the republic itself.that is why the clone war in AOTC panned out as it did. Even Dooku said at his meeting that "once the trade federation's army is added to yours the republic will give in to any demands that we have."

So there! Bungggggggg!!!!

 

I`m undecided on this debate

 

What yoda did was understandable

 

I agree with Princess Tina. I also began a thread long ago about how Yoda was wrong but it was flamed.

Pathetic how some think you have it all figured out.

 

Perhaps some of us are on to something, and you are not. It is possible.

 

And perhaps some of us are also on to something and you are wrong. Also a possiblity.

 

Agreed. But it's unnecessary to imply that people are arrogantly pathetic because they think otherwise, and that few agreed with you on your thread.

 

No, I never said because they thought otherwise, but because they thought thay had it all figured out which is different.

The difference is that some folks will admit that their is another opposite point of view, like you yourself have, and admit that there is a possiblity that the other point of view may be right or your own wrong. I respect that.

Others, however, will flame and act as if they knew everything and shun all possibility for other points of view. That's what I'm refering too as pathetic.

 

i think yoda learned from his mistakes ny esb
he didn't want luke to make the mistake that he did and he was worried with lukes short amount of trainning that he might succumb to the darkside .
these movies are a piece of a puzzle and once episode 3 arrives then i'm sure issues from 1 and 2 will be resolved just like most of the issues from 4-6.