Can Lucas explain Palpatine's rise to power?

True, that the jedi were waining in power. Slowly but surely the Dark Side was sapping away their ability to use the Force and the jedi never saw it. They were far too arrogant and blind to the fact that the Dark Side still existed.

Remember that for thousands of years, the jedi have kept the peace. During that time there hadn't been a major galactic conflict the likes of the Clone Wars. The closest that they ever got was the Sith Wars. So a galaxy of trillions, and more had the peace kept by only several thousands of jedi.

Because of that it was ingrained into both the Senate as well as the jedi that they were infalliable, that they could keep the peace without the assistance of a army. It was an institutionilized weakness that only the Dark Side could exploit.

Now that brings us to the events of TPM and AOTC. We know several key facts
1. The time period between both movies is 10 years
2. The order was placed by a jedi master named Sifo-Dyas
3. Sifo-Dyas was killed around the time that the order was placed
4. It takes 10 years to fully mature a clone.

Now then we can presume that it was Dooku, under the orders of Palpy placed the order in order to give Palpy his army and use them against the jedi at a later date.

When it was revealed that the clones were ordered by one of them and that they had come at the perfect time, when war was on the horizon, they had no choice but to use them.

They were facing an opponent that they knew they couldn't reason with like they had in the past. Rather than admit their failure to protect their peace they had to use the only option that they thought they had, use the clones.

They couldn't admit their failings. If they did that then it would destroy themselves as well as the Republic by destroying the public confidence in them.

Instead Yoda decided to compound this failure by abandoning their defensive policies that had served them so well in the past. Instead they moved towards a offensive policy that he, like the rest of the jedi, had been pushed into by the skillful manipulation of Palpatine. They chose to take the easy way out because it was the only choice they could take. If they stood by and did nothing then they knew that they would take the full blame of not protecting the Republic went it needed the jedi's the most. But they also knew that they couldn't take on the entire CIS by themselves.

Now here comes this clone army ready to go and the jedi couldn't help themselves in using it. When it was reveled that it was a jedi who had ordered it then of course supisions would be raised, but think of this. Yoda has stated several times that the future is always in motion and that the dark side clouds everything.

Perhaps in Yoda's mind he felt that maybe Sifo-Dyas had saw the need of the clone army because of the rising power of the darkside. It was clouding everything and it was clear that the jedi couldn't handle it by themselves. So he places this order as a plan B. If nothing happens then the clones stay on Kamino since the Kaminos were in no hurry to contact the jedi council. But if something should arise then here are the perfect soldiers to help. Yoda couldn't allow anyone else to find out about the jedi's weakness and thus in order to keep it secret he had to use the clones.

 

The story skips over two very important parts of the plot, leaving the viewer to make up his own story. If you skip an important part of the plot, it should still be clear what happened. The parts they DO show are so conflicting, that it seems a script problem, more than artistic intent. These parts of the plot that are skipped are necessary in order for the film to make sense. I don't think we've really come up with a version of what happened that is in accordance with the other dialogue and motivations in the film.

 

Can Lucas explain Palpatine's rise to power?

It's quite simple. Palpatine manipulated people and cirsumstances to make sure he was always in the right place at the right time.

 

The story skips over two very important parts of the plot, leaving the viewer to make up his own story.

The parts they DO show are so conflicting, that it seems a script problem, more than artistic intent.

I honestly don't see it your way.

What "two" events are skipped? (I know one is Yoda's revelation of the clone army. What's the other?)
-and-
What about these events are "conflicting" with the rest of the story?

Thanks.

I don't think we've really come up with a version of what happened that is in accordance with the other dialogue and motivations in the film.

Agreed. (Although I think I've got it right in my mind.) Even some posts supporting the story directly preceding ours (like ImperialBA) are slightly misinterpreting events.

Is that Lucas' fault? Partially. But I also think it's due to Star Wars fans' OT preconditioning and inaccurate preconceptions of a PT GFFA.

(I will explain what I mean later....)

 

Slightly misinterpreting events? I'll take humbris to that claim



But would like to see what your further explaination is...

 

What "two" events are skipped? (I know one is Yoda's revelation of the clone army. What's the other?)


The other part of the plot that is skipped is whether Yoda took it upon himself to Attack with the Clones.

The way the film is directed, fans are split over whether Yoda was eager to use the Clones, or whether he was given direct orders.

I will give things that conflict:
I) If sending Clones was Palps' direct order, it's conflicting because:
a) Yoda is shown making a decision to go to Kamino immediately after hearing Palps will create the army. The next time we see him is with the army. It appears Yoda acted unilaterally in deciding the military procedures.
b) Why would Palpatine tell Yoda to save the Jedi when he could just have slowed the process by 30 minutes, had them wiped out on Geonosis, and then use the Clones to kill the Seperatists?
c) From Palps' speech, it appears he wants to hide the fact that these Clones already existed. Using them so quickly could work against his credibility.

II) If sending Clones was Yoda's initiative, it conflicts because:
a) At the end, Yoda is very upset that the Clone Wars even began. If this is true, why didn't he try to avoid it by attempting to uncover the mystery surrounding the Clone Army - an Army who he has been told has connections to the Sith. (The clone template, Jango, is working for the Trade Federation who are known Sith collaborators)
b) Much of the plot revolves aroung the stern, imbedded Jedi philosophy of letting other people die rather than rush to save them and make things worse. Why, if even the smallest breaches of this causes huge arguments among the Jedi, is it suddenly ok to start a whole war over saving a dozen Jedi.
c) Palps says "I will create a grand army" which implies that Yoda can buy some time to investigate who Tyranus is, and thus make the Sith connection which is already available to make, albeit loosely. Any sith connection no matter how small should be of great caution to the Jedi, considering their predicament, as well as their knowledge of the Sith planning something.
d) It is well established in the film that the Jedi will only serve to protect, not fight wars. Certainly they have had situations in which their Jedi were in danger before, so why would these circumstances cause that rule to finally be broken? All they knew was that the Seperatists had an army. Certainly they must have known they had some weapons of some kind. And they definitely knew the TF had a droid army. So what's the big news here? I can see certain senators wanting to rush to war over this, but why Yoda?

I'll post more conflicts later, but I'm tired.

 

I) If sending Clones was Palps' direct order, it's conflicting because:

a) Yoda is shown making a decision to go to Kamino immediately after hearing Palps will create the army. The next time we see him is with the army. It appears Yoda acted unilaterally in deciding the military procedures.

Yoda probably went there to see what was going on. If someone impersonating, or being Sifo-Dyas, he would want to get to the bottom of it. Plus to see exactly what these clones were. Now Palpatine would've found out that Yoda was traveling to Kamino, or he could have sent his own rep to go there to organize the clones and take them to Geonosis. Then he could just order Yoda to take the clones, since he is SC there really isn't much that Yoda can do besides disobeying a direct order. The jedi serve the republic.

b) Why would Palpatine tell Yoda to save the Jedi when he could just have slowed the process by 30 minutes, had them wiped out on Geonosis, and then use the Clones to kill the Seperatists?

And build sympathy for the jedi? Palpy wouldn't want to make them martyrs and that would make his job much more harder. If they were all wiped out then that would leave just Yoda and whatever jedi remained behind. The Senate as well as the galaxy at large would solidify their support behind Yoda and the Jedi against the Seperatists. Then Palpy would have a harder time blaming them for the wars, also without jedi their to lead the troops it would make the war drag on much much longer. He couldn't allow that to happen

c) Palps' speech, it appears he wants to hide the fact that these Clones already existed. Using them so quickly could work against his credibility.

Well, he couldn't very well come out and state that they have a clone army prepped and ready to go. That would raise far too many questions far too early. He needs to state that the jedi started the wars, the jedi ordered the clones and lead the CIS, in order to use this as his excuse to wipe them all out legally.
They already knew that it was a clone army, but Palpy had to be keeping them in the dark on many parts of it.

The real question here is what did the Senate know and when did they know it?

 

Allow me to try too. Here?s the first part:

I) If sending Clones was Palps' direct order, it's conflicting because:
a) Yoda is shown making a decision to go to Kamino immediately after hearing Palps will create the army. The next time we see him is with the army. It appears Yoda acted unilaterally in deciding the military procedures.

Remember, that just hours prior, the three-eyes-guy cries, ?The debate is over. Now we need that clone army!? Members of the Loyalist Committee are already aware that the Jedi have assembled an army that is ready for battle. Organa then counters that it?s not really that easy. The Senate has not yet heard about this clone army.

Other legislators in the Senate already have their own ideas for a Republican army. Some senators have probably spent years jockeying for the opportunity to supply armament, provide training, perhaps even volunteer forces. There?s a lot of money to be made! Historically, wars have not only been fought to defend a nation-state. They can also boost a recessed economy. Smaller worlds that might be suffering from a depression, and who would otherwise be ignored by more important galactic events, would jump at the opportunity to participate in galactic affairs if protection were ensured by larger worlds with better defense capabilities without fear of Separatist reprisals. They?ll want in, too.

Unfortunately, Organa realizes that this Senate is not aware of the same intelligence that the committee has been told. The three-eyes-guy and others in the committee are acting on fear that they need an army ? any army - right now! If they were to do it the ?congressional way?, it might take weeks before senators from all across the Republic can return to Coruscant and take part in the debate of what type of army to use. Remember, the role of the Loyalist Committee was only to vote on the Military Creation Act ? a yea or nea on the creation of an army. Not necessarily what shape that army might take. It?s already apparent that the Senate wanted an army. Palpatine was holding off the vote as long as he could because his negotiations (under the behest of senators like Padme) were the last shred of peace left for the Republic. If the Loyalist Committee gave up on peace (which they finally had at this point), then the Senate?s role afterwards was to determine what form that army would end up taking.

Mas Amedda (who may or may not be a pet subordinate of Palpatine) interjected that the only solution would be to have a Senate majority vote that would allow Palpatine emergency powers. This was a crisis. The People already want an army, but it?s nonsense to have the debate over what type of army to use when the security of their own lives are at stake! Besides, the army is already there, under the jurisdiction of the wise and honorable Jedi Order, no less.

b) Why would Palpatine tell Yoda to save the Jedi when he could just have slowed the process by 30 minutes, had them wiped out on Geonosis, and then use the Clones to kill the Seperatists?

Ahh?.but you have forgotten. He is the phantom menace. ?Everything is going as planned.? He can?t actually foretell the future any more than Yoda could not see whether the past events would have led to war. By holding off the Senate vote for the creation of an army as long as he did, he succeeded in getting the Jedi to somehow ?stumble? upon this clone army that was supposedly created by one of their own. It?s just one of his first steps.

He now has the forces in place to wage a long war on an enemy that is conveniently being strung along by his own apprentice. In the meantime, he can declare a permanent state of martial law and finally become emperor of an entire galaxy.

At least for the first battle, the Jedi need to be in command of the army. It is, after all, a product of their doing. Otherwise he may be showing his cards too soon. He'll have plenty of time later to assemble army a

 

So, LucasCop, you think the filmmakers' intent was to show that Yoda was under direct orders to use the Army at that moment? The way it is directed, and what they choose to show makes the common viewer believe otherwise. We're really in Lucas' "tone poem" territory here, rather than "story mode". I just hope they talk about it in Episode III.

 

It's almost as if you haven't seen the OT. Go watch ESB. Then ask yourself the following two questions:

1. What does Yoda strongly advise Luke against before he leaves to save his friends.

2. What is it that Yoda does in AotC when he goes to save his friends?

By the end of AotC he seems to have realized his error. "Begun, this Clone War, has". Too bad he still thinks that the only way to defeat the Sith is to carry on fighting them. He's full of regret at the end because he knows the Sith pushed the Republic into a war. What he doesn't realize is that the Sith is in charge of the Republic as well as the Seperatists. When he discovers this fact his lesson will be complete. By that time he'll know that under no circumstances are you to use violence, even if it seems to be a noble cause.

Palpatines rise to power is like a lesson in values. Palpatine uses peoples good nature to do evil things. That's the main theme of the prequels. You think you're doing something good, but at the end of the day wrong is wrong, no matter what you think the ends may be.

 

That ESB connection is the first thing I thought of when I watched the movie. But Lucas set up a story for Yoda's failure that is not an understandable mistake.

Luke rushing off to Bespin was completely understandable

Yoda rushing off to Geonosis was the an act which contradicted the very basis of his character, as well as ignored the glaring implications of Sith ties to the army. Not only does Yoda know the Army is cloned from someone who works with the only known Sith collaborators, but he is against starting a war in the first place. His motivation is not clear, unlike Luke's which is very clear. To save his friends.

If the Jedi were willing to sacrifice ObiWan, they would have had time to use a proper strategy. If they knew that there was an army on Geonosis, why would they go there with an army instead of negotiating? Besides, they already knew the TF had an army, and they had no idea whether they would strike or not.

 

It's a perfectly understandable mistake. As far as Yoda knows, the Republic is the side of the good guys, and the Seperatists is the side of the Sith. This is confirmed at the end when he completely denies the possibility that Dooku was telling the truth about Sidious controlling the Senate. It's not the first time the Sith used such a tactic in the movie. As far as Yoda knows, the Jedi were never supposed to stumble accross the clone army. It was made so hard for them to find Kamino by someone, that it actually looked like the Sith didn't want the army found. If a Sith says "we're in control of the Senate", then they are not in control of the Senate. If a Sith says "we don't want you to find this army", then the answer is to find that army. Yoda thought he was being clever by taking this army that they created and using it against them. As Obi-Wan said "If we catch Dooku we can end this war right now!".

The Republic had grounds to bring the army there. The Genosians had attacked their ambasadors. Top Republic officials had seen proof of this through Obi-Wan's transmission. Yoda had the authority, and took matters into his own hands. Much like it's a Christian ideal not to use violence, even if it's used against you, the Jedi shouldn't use violence to solve their problems. Unfortunately countries like America, and certian galactic Republics don't operate that way when it comes to war. Yoda made a mistake. He thought it was safe to use the army, and he thought it was OK to use the army if it was to save 200 of his fellow Jedi and capture those responsible for the galaxies problems. He was wrong.

Yoda was tricked, plain and simple. He knew that the Dark Side had clouded his vision, but he couldn't accept defeat. This was his undoing. He was doing the right thing, but as these movies show, thinking you're doing the right thing doesn't mean it's going to ultimately be used for good.

 

Am I missing something here?

Yoda never acted unilaterally. His only failure was that he never divulged to the Senate his suspicions concerning the origin of the army. According to Yoda, the attack on Obi Wan was not an act of war. The Jedi remained on the sidelines while the Loyalist Committee debated the next course of action. The Jedi never said a word while the debate ensued.

Fans like to find parallels between stories. That is fine. But these same parallels must be taken in context with the story. Otherwise we're missing the point. Luke's rush to save his friends on Bespin is not the exact same rush to judgment as Yoda's. In fact, it could be argued, or indeed, SHOULD be argued that it was the people of the Republic who rushed to judgment - not necessarily the Jedi. They voted for Palpatine's emergency powers.

If Palpatine's emergency powers were not to issue the clone army into service, then what was it for? It seems as though BenduHopkins would like to suggest that the idea was for Palpatine to use his emergency powers to coordinate and plan an entirely different army - despite the fact that the Jedi had this clone army ready for immediate service (helmets, boots, guns, and all)! It was just by blind luck that Palp's insidious plans were preserved because the Jedi then took it upon themselves to unilaterally rush this clone army into service without anyone's approval. It just happened to work out in the end for all involved. Not likely, and frankly, an incorrect interpretation of the narrative.

I must be missing where this debate got derailed......

I suggest listening to the DVD commentary at the time surrounding the debate over whether to grant the chancellor emergency powers. You will hear Lucas' off-the-cuff contrast between the "kids'" behavior and that of the older and wiser Yoda. The kids want to rush and save Obi Wan without assessing the situation. Yoda's behavior, on the other hand, is much different. His reaction is more reserved. He understands the need for information before rushing to judgment.

More happening on Geonosis than has been revealed.

And what happens in the very next scene? The senators are rushing to judgment because their fear has possessed their actions. They rush this clone army into service by granting Palpatine emergency powers. How ironic.....and tragic.....

 

It seems as though we have come full circle.

I'm starting to become repetitive. My last post flows neatly into my second post on page 2.

I'll let this discussion die down before adding my own two cents. I will respond to specific questions addressed to me though.

 

And what happens in the very next scene? The senators are rushing to judgment because their fear has possessed their actions. They rush this clone army into service by granting Palpatine emergency powers. How ironic.....and tragic.....

Yes. Totally agreed. At this point in the movie, I was totally sold and everything was fine, because I figured Yoda knew the gravity of the situation and was going to Kamino because he wanted to question the Kaminoans. Instead, the next time we see Yoda is Attacking zealously with the Clones. Apparently he is guilty of the same thing the Senators are, no? Is Yoda not RUSHING also? How not? Did the Palpatine intercept Yoda on his way to Kamino and tell him to use the Clones? That is not the story that is told. If that was intended, it would be shown no?

Yoda's hands may be tied by not being able to reveal the depth of his distrust, but that is no excuse for going FASTER than the Senate in starting the war. If anything, you'd think he would do anything possible to resist the war, slow it down. THIS IS WHAT I THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO KAMINO FOR when I saw it for the first time. Then, WHOA, Yoda showing up with the Clones was a real head scratcher. Seems like he had a change of heart. But why? Did he have a premonition that they were gonna die, and his heart got the best of him? I'll never know. A complete change in a character's direction deserves an on screen explanation, I think.

Anyway, George also says on the DVD that he got the idea for YODA showing up in command of the clones LATE in post production. The story probably made sense until that detail was thrown in.

 

The Jedi remained on the sidelines while the Loyalist Committee debated the next course of action. The Jedi never said a word while the debate ensued.

The script at least has Yoda saying that he doesn't want war in that scene.

 

I guess I need you to answer this question for me (from my previous post). I'm confused as to what angle you're coming in. Thanks.

If Palpatine's emergency powers were not to issue the clone army into service, then what was it for?

Then you write:

Yoda's hands may be tied by not being able to reveal the depth of his distrust, but that is no excuse for going FASTER than the Senate in starting the war.

FASTER?! In the eyes of some senators, the Separatists have already declared war on them!

BAIL ORGANA: The Commerce Guilds are preparing for war...there can be no doubt of that.

PALPATINE: Count Dooku must have made a treaty with them.

ASK AAK: The debate is over! Now we need that clone army!

They're keepers of the peace. If the Republic wants an army to strike the Separatists as they are in the process of massing huge droid armies, then why would the audience expect the Jedi to sit around with their thumbs up their a**es? Again....Star Wars fans are being influenced by the fact that they've seen how the story ends. We know that the Republic becomes an empire - under the leadership of the Sith, no less. But we weren't supposed to know that. The audience really only knows that a pre-emptive assault is being commanded to end the Separatist threat once and for all. This strike is being carried out in order to preserve and protect the GALACTIC REPUBLIC.

"Oh....you wanted us to get that army up and running now?! Sorry....I'm on break. And you forget...us Jedi don't like to be rushed. We like to take our time - regardless of the fact that we were set up by you guys to serve and protect you. Go talk to that blue-skinned chick. She might be able to help you out. Besides....we probably missed our shot to catch Dooku and end this war anyway. Those droids are probably halfway across the galaxy already. Go knock on Alderaan's door. You might find Dooku's forces there by now......"

 

As we saw in TPM, its not unusual for the Jedi to await direct orders from a politician, as they are very reluctant to go to war.

The answer to your question about Emergency Powers:

Clearly the Emergency powers were to give the Republic permission to use the Clones. But Yoda was not like "the kids" as you say (a term borrowed from the commentary). He did not have the fear that the Senate did as a motivation. Do his actions look like someone who is under direct orders? Is hearing a speech about what's going to happen a direct order? Isn't it silly to see an anti war character jumping at the slightest indication or contortment of "an order" to go to war?

If a king declares war and the next thing he knows is one of his generals is already on the battlefront fighting, isn't that taking too much initiative, in fact undermining the authority of the king?

You are claiming that since Yoda heard Palps say he was going to use the army, he figured he might as well use it IMMEDIATELY with no further discussion or red tape involved. That scene was no direct order, and Yoda and Mace didn't talk to each other about their apprehension, given the Sith connection, because George overlooked it.

Even if Yoda knew sending the Clones was inevitable, and knew that his hope of avoiding war was likely lost, how does it make any sense to portray a reluctant character taking a speech he heard from a mile away about plans for the future as a direct order to begin a war then and there??? It's actually comical in its absurdity.

 

"Can you explain to me Palpatine's rise to power?"


The Emperor says it all himself:

"Everything is happening as I have forseen."

Note:
Excellent work you guys have above.

 

he figured he might as well use it IMMEDIATELY with no further discussion or red tape involved.

BenduH, in the movie already Mace voiced his concern about this creation, and to tell the Senate it was beyond their control. Yoda then informed that it should not be revealed that the Jedi didn't know about it. One thing was clear though, the Clone Army was ready for use.

But it was clear with the Loyalist committee that there was a dire need to do something before the Separatist attack the Republic. But only Emergency Powers can allow the Chancellor to use these Clones. This red tape, further discussion (you are talking about) therefore, is a non-issue. Mas Amedda clearly establishes it.

So, the Jedi as protectors had to use the Clones. Mace understood it as well "it is done then". There was no other choice, unless the Jedi want to admit the Clones were not their doing, which takes us back to Mace/Yoda conversation. The Jedi cannot afford further adversaries.

The duty was to protect the Republic, and as far as the Senate is concerned, the Jedi will do just that. Palpatines first act was revealing that he will create a Grand Army. Yoda went ahead as required.

 

They never say they can't admit the clones was not their doing. They only say they can't inform the Senate of their weakened inability to use the force.

But you have opened the same question. How could the Jedi tell the Senators about the Army and take responsibility for it without getting just as many adversaries?

 

We know that the Republic becomes an empire - under the leadership of the Sith, no less. But we weren't supposed to know that. The audience really only knows that a pre-emptive assault is being commanded to end the Separatist threat once and for all.

If we never saw the OT, we would see the Jedi using the Army of the bad guys. We would know that they were made by the bad guys. Its clear without seeing the OT.

Also, we would see a weakness in plot logic. If the Jedi don't mind telling everyone that they knew about the army for 10 years, then why would they have to hide that they didn't know. Both stories are damning, but the truth would have allowed some caution and cooperation among the Jedi and the good members of the Senate.

The whole idea that they can't tell that they didn't know is weak. They go ahead and say they did know, which should logically make for even more adversaries within the Senate.

 

If we never saw the OT, we would see the Jedi using the Army of the bad guys. We would know that they were made by the bad guys. Its clear without seeing the OT.

Really? If a complete newbie entered AOTC after seeing only TPM. Read no EU. Heard no spoilers. Had no idea whatsoever how Episodes III, IV, V, and VI turn out. He would never - and I mean, NEVER - know with certainty that Dooku is a Sith until the final minutes of AOTC when Tyrannus and Sidious are conversing FACE TO FACE!

Oh sure....we might suspect that this "mysterious Count Dooku" as pointed out in the preamble may be this Darth Sidious that was seen in TPM, but that is only because an audience of fiction knows how characters are introduced and how plot flows are created in generating an entertaining yarn. Sure....we might suspect Dooku is bad news....but we would never know. Think of how much more difficult it would be for the Jedi who had known him his whole life and were programmed to think a particular way about how Jedi Knights are expected to behave. Count Dooku could not assassinate anyone. It's not in his character. He's a political idealist. Not a murderer.

If we had never seen the OT, the biggest debate at this point would be who Sifo-Dyas really is. And why he ordered a clone army without authorization. And notice, I called it a DEBATE. The audience should have no idea where the story is going at this point. But unfortunately, this central issue that may turn out to be absolutely vital to the victory of the Jedi over the Sith is being glossed over by the fans today. Why? Because they already know the answer. The Republic turns into an empire.....ho-hum.....next please. It's actually rather interesting how our OT pre-conditioning has fooled us into underappreciating the complexities of a new trilogy set in a GFFA.

Perhaps you should read my hypothetical analysis of the Star Wars Saga if we only had Eps. I and II to review. Nowhere would the audience even have dreamed that the Jedi Order would go extinct and the Republic army would become the cold and deadly strong-arm of an evil, galactic empire. To be frank, that contention is absolutely and utterly preposterous.

Also, we would see a weakness in plot logic. If the Jedi don't mind telling everyone that they knew about the army for 10 years, then why would they have to hide that they didn't know. Both stories are damning, but the truth would have allowed some caution and cooperation among the Jedi and the good members of the Senate.

The whole idea that they can't tell that they didn't know is weak. They go ahead and say they did know, which should logically make for even more adversaries within the Senate.

I do agree with one thing you're saying. The problem lies in Lucas' method of storytelling. He uses a series of cuts to keep the pace moving, because as he puts it, Star Wars is meant to be fast. But if he only took a breath once at this point....letting the audience digest just what is taking place. This plot point that we're discussing is actually the pivotal point of the entire first trilogy of the saga. It is the point of no turning back. The people have doomed themselves to enslavement. But Lucas just continues racing along with the plot.

As openmind correctly points out though, the narrative clearly suggests that Palpatine is instigating the pre-emptive strike at Geonosis.

I think he would have succeeded a little better if he had been able to portray greater desperation. He consistently avoids ratcheting up the tension. He jumps from scene-to-scene without sufficiently ratcheting up the tension and allowing the audience to digest what has just transpired.

He flounders in TPM with the Nubians placed in concentration camps. How dire are their circumstances....really?

He flounders in AOTC with the danger of the

 

If GL wanted to hide from newbies that the Army was evil, he shouldn't have used the bad guy's theme when he shows them assembling for the first time (The Trade Federation March implies a connection to the Trade Federation). He also shouldn't have made it so the Jedi know that the template works for the Trade Federation. That gives the newbie audience a reason wonder why the Jedi are so blind, when they can see. Also, any newbie would associate the Sith with the TF, hence connecting them to the Army. And most newbies would probably suppose that the Sifo Diyas connection had something to do with the Sith, simply because there is so much emphasis on the Jedi figuring out the Sith's plots. When we see a plot, we would think "it must be those sith. Thats what they're up to. Another Army, and more invasions."

It has nothing to do with Dooku. You don't even need to consider him.

 

If GL wanted to hide from newbies that the Army was evil, he shouldn't have used the bad guy's theme when he shows them assembling for the first time (The Trade Federation March implies a connection to the Trade Federation).

Oh really.....when I finished watching AOTC, I thought Sifo-Dyas ordered the creation of a clone army ten years ago without approval from the Jedi Council because he was the only one at the time who was convinced that the Jedi needed assistance in preserving peace and stability through armament. They weren't soldiers.

In cooperation with Master Sifo-Dyas, Master Dooku hired Jango Fett as the template. His involvement allowed him to conclude that some day even he may be able to use that army if corruption within the Senate didn't cease. Prove me wrong.



And the Jedi have no conclusive proof that Dooku was even involved. Prove me wrong.

And as you know, music is not a literal representation. They act as motifs. Just as it was evident for a decade or more that the Trade Federation had amassed a huge army because they had ceased negotiations....the tragic theme is that negotiations always seem to fail when the weak and fearful resort to the easier pattern of violence. In a time when the Republic is in dire need of an army to defend their ideals, the protaganists are also building a conglomeration of aggression in the same manner as the TF because they are in the process of giving up on negotiations too. A rather innovative metaphor concocted by both Lucas and Williams.

I'll bet a giant conflict is brewing between the two sides to the point that if the Senate chooses to use such AN ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC, war will break out by the climax to AOTC.

He also shouldn't have made it so the Jedi know that the template works for the Trade Federation. That gives the newbie audience a reason wonder why the Jedi are so blind, when they can see.

Also, any newbie would associate the Sith with the TF, hence connecting them to the Army.

But we know that Gunray was already burned once. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Yes...the Jedi may suspect the Sith somehow have their hands in the affairs of the TF still, but again...how in the world does that confirm that this army will actually turn on the Jedi? You were the one who said that they were the bad guys. Not me. What does one have to do with the other?

Oh....I get it.....'cause Kenobi should have been listening to the music too.....Prove me wrong.

(P.S. We will find that the TF had nothing to do with the creation of the clone army. I can promise you that.)

It has nothing to do with Dooku. You don't even need to consider him.

Yer right.....as I was explaining....Any of these points addressed provide absolutely no proof that the army is made up of "bad guys".

They are clones. Bred for one purpose: defend and preserve the Republic. Whoever's in control of them is in control of the fate of the galaxy. Prove me wrong.