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Conversational Standards on the Site

Discussion in 'Communications' started by devilinthedetails, Sep 20, 2020.

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  1. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I have received PMs expressing support for my starting this thread so apparently more people than me have observed the issue. They just may not feel comfortable speaking up publicly on this site because of things like ad hominem attacks being tolerated. So we have polite users becoming too intimidated to express themselves publicly. I see that as a negative environment that should be addressed. Hence the creation of the thread and PMs from other users have only to my mind reaffirmed that need.
     
  2. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Your intentions may be noble, but for many of us, this is the fourth thread in three months and it tends to end the same way: some users feel other users are being mean/disrespectful to other users but offer no solution to the problem.

    We have had a dialogue. But what we have yet to see are solutions. We can’t just force users to get along. Many of us legitimately disagree with others but we can co-exist in a forum.

    Some users cannot and should either choose to post elsewhere or opt to use the ignore feature. But what appears to be the preferred solution of forcing others to be nicer is not a realistic solution. The rules are not the issue either- when the majority abide by them and the minority are the ones having an issue, it shows the rules are working as intended. And I would argue enforcement of the rules is not the issue. From what I have seen, it seems consistent.

    So basically, what is left to talk about so we can finally end this discussion?
     
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I think it would be helpful to agree on three things:

    1. Users should not be accused of spamming the site unless they are really spamming the site as outlined in the rules (with things like promoting other sites, etc).

    2. Users should not be subjected to ad hominem attacks which should not be tolerated under the rules.

    3. Users should not have their mental health judged by the threads in which they choose to participate and should not be critiqued solely for posting in threads such as game threads that are permitted by the rules.

    If everyone agrees with those three rules, I think the thread had served its purpose. If not, I think there is a discussion about standards of courtesy to be had.
     
  4. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    1) Spam is defined as Stupid Pointless Annoying Messages. However, it is also a term used when a user posts very frequently in a short amount of time. So in effect there are two definitions and the second seems to be the issue. Users posting so frequently that the posts are the equivalent of Stupid, Pointless and Annoying. So they can still be within the rules while still arguably considered as spam. So in this case, these users are not breaking the rules, but they are posting content at such a frequency that it becomes Stupid, Pointless, and Annoying.

    2) You seem to be stuck on that word. Ultimately, it comes to this: The minute a post is a personal attack on a user, that is when it should be actionable. But criticizing opinions, arguments, even beliefs- that’s all part of discussion. And we are free to agree to disagree. It’s when that turns toward a personal attack or statement against a user that a line is crossed. Which example do you feel has done that?

    3) I don’t think you’ll find any user here who would support a user who would judge someone on their mental health. Many users have been open about mental health struggles. However, mental health can not also be used as an excuse for bad behavior. And that is what some have tried to do. Just like age should not be an excuse neither should ability or disability. Yes, some accommodation should be made and kindness encouraged. But if a user chooses to keep posting and receives pushback on the content of their posts, they cannot then turn around and cling to their mental health as an excuse. Because they have already demonstrated knowing the difference between right and wrong and are choosing to use it as a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  5. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I don’t agree with #1 and won’t. It’s spam and I’m going to keep calling it spam. There’s no discussion to be had with me about it.
     
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  6. Bacon164

    Bacon164 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2005
    I think this is where many posters, myself included, draw a line in the sand. But I think it is being addressed in a way that will ultimately benefit everyone.
     
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  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    There is something Orwellian about this enforced niceness crusade.
     
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  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    This feels like the same species of thread as the last discussion. I'm going to make two observations here:

    I. It is completely unreasonable to expect every single user of a message board to be familiar with the board's history, and with threads going back 20 years. The idea that people need to read up on past discussions is ridiculous. This is a Star Wars message board.

    Also, for the record? "Back in the day," I remember that people used to get edited and warned by mods for essentially newbie-bashing when they suggested such a thing. We have a lighter hand now, but just food for thought.

    Stop alienating users just because they haven't been here that long. There's no "paying one's dues" in order to post here.

    II. At the same time, yes, this is a very old forum and it has its own culture. Each board has its own norms and ways of speaking. The JCC is certainly one of them. But that having been said, the JCC gets accused of being cliquish for a reason -- because it seems people would rather exclude people who don't get admitted into the club rather than integrate them into the board and how it works. It's basically like some sort of college social club: some users get invited in and others are permanently pariahs.

    We all know how it works here. Come on.
     
  9. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Respectfully, that's bull****.

    All that's required to not be grating is to bring your own voice. This handful of people has not done that in any way. What they come to do is here is blurt out random things.
     
    harpua, Outsourced, Rylo Ken and 3 others like this.
  10. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Pretty sure you're remembering something that didn't happen. Unless it was accompanied by something inappropriate, there's never been anything wrong with advising people about the history of this place. It's not too much to expect people to think for a bit before posting, particularly if it's about a forum. Do people need to read back 20 years? Of course not. However, a thoughtful person should look around to familiarize themselves with what's already been said.

    I've always been a believer in being proactive, and I know I hate talking about things that are common knowledge without knowing they are. In short, it's reasonable to expect anyone new to invest a bit of time into looking around. That's true for any social situation, on or offline.

    Like it or not, social skills are an important part of interacting with other people. If a person acts in such a way that demonstrates ignorance of existing conventions, that seldom goes over well. That's true for anywhere that people gather, not just here. If you're meeting in a library and you speak loudly in conversation, expect some heads to turn in your direction.

    Or, you know, read the room, as people say now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Okay, cool, so can we write down these new rules for the Jedi Council Clique (JCC)?

    1. User must bring their own voice, lest they be annoying to the Elders of the Forum.
    2. Users must read up on the forum history and important threads before they are deemed worthy to post. No, we're not going to tell you what threads to read, figure it out.

    Any other rules we need to set down?
     
  12. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I think it is more constructive to outline the specific issue rather than to accuse other users of being spammers. I think it is fair to discuss that some people might post in threads too much to the annoyance of other users or that some users may deem certain threads as pointless. It sounds like the mods are considering either inventing a separate games type tag or a separate games type subform/forum that would alleviate the latter issue in particular that seems to have caused some tension. I suppose I think it is just more productive to focus on the issue or issues rather than on other posters.

    Some examples of personal attacks already quoted in this thread:

    "You turbo post in all threads. You are virtually unavoidable."

    "Are there any threads you don't post in? Maybe I can hide there."

    "I don't want to have to deal with this person anymore. And since this person is everywhere on here--I'm out."

    "backed by uber (expletive deleted by me) poster iron_lord."

    "the (expletive deleted by me) posters have already won."

    "y'all spam lovers"

    "you are spam personified"

    "Aww, it's like being ganged up on by the Baby Yoda fan club."

    Those were all quoted in my OP.

    An example of an ad hominem directed toward me since the thread started would be: "What a nag" (post #11).

    With regard to the mental health issue, I have quoted a user who questioned whether posting in game threads was mentally healthy because and said they existed to dispense "narcotic joy to a few." As long as these posts are celebrated rather than criticized by the community, it seems like the community does tolerate attacks on people's mental health and questioning of people's mental health solely because of the threads they choose to post in. That to me should be unacceptable behavior so that it part of my motivation for starting this thread.
     
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  13. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I figured out the JCC and Comms were different within my first couple weeks here. It was blatantly clear because things flew there that didn’t fly elsewhere. Instead of whining about JCCers being meanies, I ran with it.

    You don’t need to read past threads. The difference in the JCC is apparent. Well, until we allowed Star Wars. That was a mistake. And, oh yeah, if all you read are the spam threads, you’re not getting the JCC, because those aren’t JCC threads in any way. Spam should never have been allowed in the first place, they’re like their own ecosystem living in the JCC. Those threads aren’t like the other threads.

    There’s no integrating anywhere but WNU, as far as I can tell. There was no integration in Lit, the movie forums, or LACWAC, when I first registered. You have to integrate yourself. Read the room, as it’s been said.

    I’m not in any club. I’m not in the clique. I’m not friends with anyone here. And I’m obnoxious, combative, hostile, and abrasive as all hell. So how the hell did I survive the JCC, despite being melodramatic and starting fights with everyone? I just started posting, read the room, and adjusted.


    Abso-****ing-lutely bring your own voice. I’m not interested in relentless spam, or every last worthless bit of news that shows up in your ****ing lame ass Twitter feed. If I wanted a twitter feed, if I wanted twitter posts, I’d be on twitter. I come to the JCC for JCCers, not spambots. I don’t think asking for original content is asking too much. Put it in the Community rules, because it should be one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  14. The Maverick

    The Maverick Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2020
    this doesn't seem that bad in retrospect, more of an observation.

    on the nose for sure, simply reply with something like 'good, please do' as I would've

    what's wrong with this?

    would you rather them say 'not dealing with this person anymore, if they don't quit yappin' I'm gonna reach through their computer screen and punch 'em

    saying I cannot deal with this person, I need a breather' is actually the correct response here.

    well I don't know the context of these but I know Iron-lord and he's a pretty great guy.


    again, give them a retort, 'try some spam. it's delicious'

    "and you find me delicious don't ya?"

    there you go, another one

    Baby Yoda is cool. I'd join that fanclub.


    What I'm getting at is this...at lot of these examples are typical JC banter, most mean no real harm, others want to be keyboard warriors and probably chuckle to themselves they made a funny at other people's expense. It's the nature of that forum. You can either accept it or not post there.

    All IMO of course.
     
  15. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    I want to say my bit about this 'clique' charge because I won't have it.

    When I was a Senate mod, I thought the JCC was a clique. And so did the other Senate mods, Lowbacca and Rylo Ken. We all fit in eventually. No sweat. Turned out the barrier was within ourselves, not in the JCC.

    What kind of nonsense is that, a clique? CT and I agree on all of this here, but in the US Politics thread we'll butt heads. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. This is exactly the dynamic that allows you to come to appreciate people with different viewpoints. It's valuable.

    Now I get lumped in with Punk and harps. Yes, I know them, but no, I don't support everything each of them says. They go their own ways and make up their own minds. They say things I don't agree with. We don't have a common strategy or culture here. The one thing we did together was to try to get Chewgumma out of his depression.

    'Clique'. We're all just people behind computers, we go on here to enjoy ourselves, each in their own way. We form bonds, which perhaps is the intention of having a community. I personally think those bonds are very worthwhile, they provide a broader perspective on the world. I'd love to get to know the people behind the iron_lord and devilinthedetails and Emperor_Ferus and Princess_Tina nicks. I'm just not that interested in their knowledge of trivia, and the issue devilinthedetails reacted to was that their knowledge of trivia drowned out more personal engagement. That's settled now, so this debate can stop.

    But I'll have no more of this clique nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  16. Diggy

    Diggy Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    I too have received PMs, concerned about your take.

    there is a fear of the yoke of oppression; the chains of suffocation; the strap-on of fear.

    a big concern is the erratic thrusts from you. You quoted lots of comm posts, it was explained that comms is a little looser in expressing views, you acknowledged this, and yet keep going.

    I think I have probably received more PMs than you, so where does that leave us?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  17. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @The Maverick Many ad hominems and insults to people could be called an observation. For instance, if I said to one of the homeless people who come into my library, "You smell." That could just be an observation. But it would also be a rude one, and my boss would probably correct me for being rude to a patron who has the right to use our library. And likely the homeless person will feel that as an attack upon his or her dignity and person. So, I would not say, "You smell," to a homeless person even if that happens to be a true observation since it is also a potentially hurtful and inflammatory one.

    If someone can't deal with a person any more, I think the mature and respectful course of action is just not say anything to that poster or to just put that poster on ignore.

    Yes, iron_lord is a good guy. That is why I don't think he should be insulted as a poster.

    I am not looking to engage in retorts with people. I am looking to have respectful conversation.

    Baby Yoda is cool (I have a stuffed toy of him and some mini statues) but the context made it clear it was intended to be an insult.

    That is the problem for me. Users insulting others, which includes making observations that are designed to be hurtful rather than constructive and respectful.
     
  18. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Casualty / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    We all agree on @Iron_lord being a right proper gent. That's a start.
     
  19. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I guess I would elaborate on my position to say I think fun banter is only fun if all the parties involved find it fun. If the person who is receiving the banter doesn't find it fun, it begins to feel like bullying more than friendly or fun banter. Chances are if threads are being created here not everyone receiving the fun banter is finding it fun. So that is probably where the problem is. My opinion is if I said something meant to be funny and someone is hurt by it, I apologize rather than accusing the other person of having no sense of fun.
     
  20. The Maverick

    The Maverick Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2020
    'you do like to post a lot don't you?'

    'you smell get out of my library'

    are two completely different things. Surely you can see this.

    well me too, I agree. But we are not other people.

    and so are people who want their nice conversation threads back in JCC, why all this started right?

    there is some truth in the saying 'you choose to be offended'
    For me and others who like baby Yoda it's a compliment...so turn it into a compliment

    and as I hate to say it...the JCC is not for you then. You don't see me in the JCC so I'm not part of some clique, nobody there knows me. Apart from the as forementioned Chewgumma who I truly do know and have done for years. And to some extent Heels.

    The reason I don't post there? I got burned a lot of times years back and being called Rain Man constantly tended to hurt ya know? it's the belly of the beast. Post there or don't. but you are not gonna change the atmosphere there or people's posting habits.


    .
     
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  21. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    How do I join this JCC clique, is there a secret handshake I’m not aware of?
     
    Darth Guy likes this.
  22. Diggy

    Diggy Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    so you think homeless people stick and it’s mature to stock your fingers in your ears and go “lalalala”

    alright then.
     
  23. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    You are unable to shake hands. You are a starfish
     
  24. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Casualty / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    We had a good thing going agreeing about Iron Lord...
     
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  25. The Maverick

    The Maverick Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2020
    Emperor Ferus, he's a great guy too
     
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